Blowers - looking for experience and discussion

[Nicepants42]

I've been reading a bunch of threads here regarding blowers, and noticed that the best thread died a few months back - I'd like to try and get some discussion going again.

For frame of reference, this if my first WC setup. I just got my AquaXtreme 50Z in. No radiator yet, but I'm hoping to get something that is fairly thin, (ideally ~25mm) with face surface area ~430 to ~500 cm^2. I will be cooling an A64 3000+ and a GPU, which may be TEC'ed.

I'm looking at blowers right now - 5 in particular linked below - and would appreciate comments regarding noise and cooling effectiveness. I will likely be under-volting. My priorities, in order, are: performance, noise, power consumption, money, space, 'bling.

Links:
insane 436 cfm blower capable of escape velocity for $50
slightly more reasonable 176 cfm blower that has a nice large intake and low rpm for $45
very reasonable 80 cfm blower that I will probably buy because it's only $7
very small blower with very few specified specifications that is only $8
super tiny blower that I have only listed because it is amazingly cheap at only $4

I'm thinking that if the 80cfm unit doesn't completely suck, $7 is a steal. Realistically, I'm thinking that the 176 cfm Grainger is probably my best bet for noise/performance. It's fins appear to be curved forward, and the wheel is nice and big, allowing for lower rpm's (and noise, hopefully).

Also, I'd like to know if someone(s) would be interested in testing some blowers for the purpose of getting some P-Q curves to hurl in the face of those using axial cooling.

I have thick skin and an open mind - feel free to be brutally honest with your comments.

[killernoodle]

If you are planning on using a blower, you might as well take advantage of it pressure advantage and use a thicker radiator.

[Nicepants42]

Good thought, but radiator comes later.

[BillA]

no, in systems design its all done together as the functions are interactive

[DryFire]

I'd like to see some Dba ratings for those. Any one have experiace then the smaller one?

[Nicepants42]

Originally Posted by unregistered

no, in systems design its all done together as the functions are interactive

I agree with you. The approximate radiator dimensions were noted in the first post. I understand that thicker may be better to some extent when using a blower, but this topic was created to help myself and others consider what size/type of blower is well suited for cooling a CPU + TEC'ed GPU, (or 300W ballpark) and I have not decided on a blower yet. Therefore the 'best' radiator dimensions are still unknown, and I will deal with it later.

I would be very interested in any thoughts that you might have regarding the blowers I am considering - or any other blower for that matter.

If you would rather comment on particular blower/radiator combinations, that would be great also.

[Nicepants42]

Originally Posted by DryFire

I'd like to see some Dba ratings for those. Any one have experiace then the smaller one?

Or, is anyone equipped such that you can measure sound output and cfm with the ability to alter supplied voltage? I'm probably going to buy a few of the cheaper blowers anyway - I'd be happy to donate them for the purpose of greater common knowledge since I cannot test them myself.

[BillA]

no, you do not seem to be listening

the fan/rad is a unit, as is the pump/wb/rad; one is the dry side and the other is the wet side of your heat exchanger (rad)
got to deal with the interactions simultaneously

not the 'best' this, and the 'best' that - no such thing

[greenman100]

Originally Posted by Nicepants42

very reasonable 80 cfm blower that I will probably buy because it's only $7

Bought two, they are SO noisy

think hairdryer on crack

[Nicepants42]

Originally Posted by unregistered

no, you do not seem to be listening

the fan/rad is a unit, as is the pump/wb/rad; one is the dry side and the other is the wet side of your heat exchanger (rad)
got to deal with the interactions simultaneously

not the 'best' this, and the 'best' that - no such thing

You seem to be mis-understading my posts. The point of this thread is to provide useful input regarding the use of blowers (ideally P-Q curves and dba ratings at varying voltages), so that people like me can get some kind of feel for what a certain blower can do. Once this information is availible, it will be easier to consider the fan/rad unit.

@greenman: where your results any better under-volting? How was airflow?

I am going to start calling some companies and asking if/where I can find P-Q curves. Hopefully that will be more helpful.

[HammerSandwich]

Originally Posted by Nicepants42

Or, is anyone equipped such that you can measure sound output and cfm with the ability to alter supplied voltage? I'm probably going to buy a few of the cheaper blowers anyway - I'd be happy to donate them for the purpose of greater common knowledge since I cannot test them myself.

Talk to MikeC at SilentPCReview. He's currently working on a fan survey with dBA, CFM, and consistently recorded MP3s.

[BillA]

N42
your ignorance is preventing you from even understanding what is being said to you

in question format:
what is a P-Q curve ? one axis, then the other
how do you use it ?
eh ?
oh, you need the resistance curve for the rad ALSO ???

and again;
you have to consider the fan and the rad together

[greenman100]

Originally Posted by Nicepants42

You seem to be mis-understading my posts. The point of this thread is to provide useful input regarding the use of blowers (ideally P-Q curves and dba ratings at varying voltages), so that people like me can get some kind of feel for what a certain blower can do. Once this information is availible, it will be easier to consider the fan/rad unit.

@greenman: where your results any better under-volting? How was airflow?

I am going to start calling some companies and asking if/where I can find P-Q curves. Hopefully that will be more helpful.

BillA is right - if you don't understand at first, read and re-read

yeah, around 1 volt it got quiet....then again, it wasn't spinning, either

there's a reason they're so cheap.

[Nicepants42]

Originally Posted by unregistered

you have to consider the fan and the rad together

Your certainty of my ignorance is preventing you from seeing that I am in complete agreement with your methodology.

In order to consider the P-Q curve of the fan and the resistance curve of the radiator, one needs to have a P-Q curve for a fan. I have not been able to find any P-Q curves for the blowers that I am considering, and certainly not any P-Q curves at varying, sub-specified voltages.

Noise level data would be nice too.

Hence this thread.

@greenman: thank you. I will not waste my time trying to dig up data for that blower. Are there any blowers which you have had positive experiences with? Specifically in the ~80-120 cfm range?

[Etacovda]

beh.

(would probably start a flamewar, and im not interested in that)

[greenman100]

Originally Posted by Nicepants42

@greenman: thank you. I will not waste my time trying to dig up data for that blower. Are there any blowers which you have had positive experiences with? Specifically in the ~80-120 cfm range?

Torins, but they're all sold out, never have seen another, you'd have to find one used.

Also this:

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10843

Undervolted I'd guesstimate 150cfm, fairly quiet

[Nicepants42]

Originally Posted by Etacovda

you seem to be missing the point that the radiator does the heat exchanging, without a radiator your system isnt doing **** all.

One has to start somewhere. If I were asking for help estimating a resistance curve for a given radiator/block(s)/tubing, would you tell me that I had to know what the P-Q curve of the fan/blower was first?

edit: I appreciate your disinterest in flame wars.

@ greenman: I seem to recall that you sold a bunch of Torins a while ago. Thank you for the link, but I will require something that runs on 12vdc, guaranteed. Awesome shroud tho.

[JamesAvery22]

Originally Posted by Nicepants42

Your certainty of my ignorance is preventing you from seeing that I am in complete agreement with your methodology.

In order to consider the P-Q curve of the fan and the resistance curve of the radiator, one needs to have a P-Q curve for a fan. I have not been able to find any P-Q curves for the blowers that I am considering, and certainly not any P-Q curves at varying, sub-specified voltages.

Noise level data would be nice too.

Hence this thread.

@greenman: thank you. I will not waste my time trying to dig up data for that blower. Are there any blowers which you have had positive experiences with? Specifically in the ~80-120 cfm range?

Well I kind of got the impression that the stuff on surpluscenter was discontinued or the manufacturer went belly-up. Hence why its being surplused. Doubt you'll find any info on it unless it was REALLY mass produced.

Only way you'll get data like that is from a large manufacturer like Delta:
http://www.delta.com.tw/products/dcfans/default.htm
But they dont make the type of blowers we'd like to use...

Papst does though.
example: http://www.ebmpapst.us/allpdfs/D2E133%2EPDF

http://www.ebmpapst.us/Search/search.asp

[BillA]

have no inclination to impeed progress, by all means gather away
but let me share the results of testing ~150 fans to date

fan specs are not a reliable means of fan selection
i.e. similarly speced fans perform differently - with no post facto means of identifying the critical spec (w/o statistical analysis)
I have seen up to 10% differences, which is ok as these kind of appraisals probably have an error of 15%

the long and the short of it is that testing is going to be your guide
bobkoure has good data

[Nicepants42]

Originally Posted by unregistered

testing is going to be your guide

And everyone else's, I'd wager - hence my offer to send whatever I buy to someone who can test it.

Originally Posted by unregistered

bobkoure has good data

Do you think he's as grumpy with newbie PM'ers as you? Sorry, only kidding.

[Nicepants42]

Originally Posted by JamesAvery22

Only way you'll get data like that is from a large manufacturer like Delta
But they dont make the type of blowers we'd like to use...

Papst does though.
http://www.ebmpapst.us/Search/search.asp

Very nice. Thank you.

[Ls7corvete]

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=336000

Get the blower that I talk about there. It goes from silent to loud all using the onboard speed control. Big enough to draw the amount of air we need at a very nice noise level. I suspect that with resistance on the intake it will be even quieter.

BillA and Greenman: You guys are correct about choosing the radiator and blower as a unit but the problem is there is a very limited selection of affordable blowers to choose from. On the other hand there is a large selection of radiators to select from. Finding a blower and then finding a radiator may not be Ideal but we simply do not have an unlimited selection here. Out of all the blowers I could find this is the only one that I feel suits me.

Not even mentioning that I dont know of any measured resistance curves for rads/HCs that would suit a blower.

Maybe bill can give some input there. I am pretty much just taking a shot in the dark......

[Fragger56]

just something i realised that might be of use.

but why dont you head down to your local auto parts store and pick up a 12vdc blower for a cars AC system? the fans in a car arent really noisy even on the highest setting and im pretty shure they will have a pretty decent cfm/pressure curve as they have to force a decent amount of air throughout the evaporator coil, heatercore and the ducting.

the only thing that i can think of that would be a problem would be wiring it up as the speed of the fan isn't controlled by varying voltage in some cases instead you would have to rig up some kinda controller.

sorry if that has allready been thought of before.

[Ls7corvete]

Originally Posted by Fragger56

just something i realised that might be of use.

but why dont you head down to your local auto parts store and pick up a 12vdc blower for a cars AC system? the fans in a car arent really noisy even on the highest setting and im pretty shure they will have a pretty decent cfm/pressure curve as they have to force a decent amount of air throughout the evaporator coil, heatercore and the ducting.

the only thing that i can think of that would be a problem would be wiring it up as the speed of the fan isn't controlled by varying voltage in some cases instead you would have to rig up some kinda controller.

sorry if that has allready been thought of before.

They do work well. Been used by several forum members. They were a bit too big for me.

[JamesAvery22]

Originally Posted by Ls7corvete

They do work well. Been used by several forum members. They were a bit too big for me.

Was just about to say...

The heatercore assemblys(ies? or y's?) sold on ebay are huge. Blower is usually in the middle of a system that resembles Blower -> section of ducting -> HC -> more ducting. And the ducting and the blower housing looks to usually be one piece. I dunno though thats just from glancing at pictures.