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Unread 04-03-2006, 02:56 PM   #1
hanzzon
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Default Cavitation or Airleak?

Hi, I've just completed building a new watercooling system for my rig, it is compromised of;

Eheim 1048 Pump
Innovatek Reservoir
Black Ice Xtreme 2 Radiator
AquaComputer Cuplex Pro Athlon 64 waterblock
AlphaCool NVXP-3 nVidia GFX card waterblock
AlphaCool SLI Northbridge waterblock

As you can see in the picture I had to use a pretty f***ed fitting layout for the GFX card cooler; since the holes for the fittings are so close I could not use a regular 90° elbow but had to buy the nice one Aquacomputer makes, with the only issue that it was 1/8" and the NVXP-3 takes 1/4" fittings... And same thing for the hose fittings, the store I ordered the fittings from sent me too few fittings so I had to make use of 1/8" to 1/4" converter and then 1/4" hose connectors...

Anyway, the flowrate is very very low, it just only like dribbles out into the reservoir, first I thought I had bubbles in the radiator but I now think it is free from them, and I think the issue might be either that I get cavitation on the suction side of the pump or that it manages to suck in air though the o-ring seal between the Innovatek reservoir and the pumps intake nozzle...

If I tilt the system with the pump off so the intake nozzle point upward the system will be quiet for a few minutes, then it starts rattling again...

So, is the pump not strong enough to push the water though my rather restrictive waterblocks, or what else could it be, any way I can confirm it somehow? I should of course mention that my temps are quite ok, 33°C on Chipset and GFX card, CPU unknow because the tempsensor on the DFI Expert is a bit vary, it reports 32°C but I think it might be 10°C hotter or so... (this is running Rthdribl) CPU is Opteron 170@2.4ghz, 7900GT@Stock...

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Unread 04-03-2006, 04:10 PM   #2
Long Haired Git
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

Don't have PQ charts for those components, so can't give you an estimated flow rate.
To be honest, I don't know how people resist fitting it all together outside the case and mucking about first, but as per the above, they do.

So, take it out of the case, and I'd disassemble it and do some simple flow rate testing (time how long it takes to fill a bucket). Start with the bare pump, then add the rads, then add each block in turn. The first component will always murder the flow rate so don't blame it.

Flow above 3LPM is sufficient with modern blocks.

That vid card looks like it will be to blame though. The fitting look industrial, so there may be scope to drill them out for less restriction?
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Unread 04-03-2006, 04:46 PM   #3
ProHandyman
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

I was going to say the same thing as LHG, the vidcard fittings look to be your biggest problems (though there may be more).

Those tight 90*'s, and the fact that you mentioned the need to use a 1/8 to1/4 pipe fitting could be a double whammy. I would keep my eyes open for something different to use, and definitely see if you can "Port" the passages some!

What are the inside, and ouside diameters of your hose? What type of pipe thred is on the GPU Block... I know the perfect type of fitting, and available in Europe, but I need that info in order to help you.

What are the passages like in the blocks? Do you have one block that is far more restrictive then the others? That could also be a source of your low flow.

Do what LHG says... remove, making test runs by adding each item till you discover your offending part.
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Last edited by ProHandyman; 04-03-2006 at 05:06 PM.
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Unread 04-03-2006, 05:53 PM   #4
TerraMex
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

i'll be a bit more presumptuous and say all of the above.
the 90º fittings, the change to 1/4" to 1/8" , the blocks (and they are restrictive),
and the pump can't handle the restriction.

but, i'm also going to say, if it works, and if you're happy with it, then don't mess with it, no point in doing so.

if you're going to fiddle with it thou, get rid of the 90º fittings, use something like coolsleeves to reroute, and get a stronger pump (or add another 1048, if you have it).
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Unread 04-03-2006, 05:56 PM   #5
jman1310
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzzon
If I tilt the system with the pump off so the intake nozzle point upward the system will be quiet for a few minutes, then it starts rattling again...
if you're getting rattling sounds when the pump is on then you still have air in the system - get it out and things should improve
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Unread 04-04-2006, 02:36 PM   #6
hanzzon
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Haired Git
To be honest, I don't know how people resist fitting it all together outside the case and mucking about first, but as per the above, they do.
I wanted to assemble it in the case to get the correct length of hose between the components...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Haired Git
So, take it out of the case, and I'd disassemble it and do some simple flow rate testing (time how long it takes to fill a bucket). Start with the bare pump, then add the rads, then add each block in turn. The first component will always murder the flow rate so don't blame it.
Okay, time to fill a one litre bucket, pump located in a bathub, without reservoir:

Code:
Pump alone: 	   9Sec
Pump + Rad:	   12Sec
Pump + Rad + CPU:  24Sec
Pump + Rad + GFX:  35Sec
Pump + Rad + Chip: 37Sec
Everything:	   60Sec
When all block are connected the pump rattles/makes annoying noises, if it only runs the rad and one block alone it is fine, however two or three blocks in series is a no-go...

I tried with this pump too, it is by itself a very noisy pump, it has a flowrate that is leaps above that of the Eheim, it still took that pump 60 seconds to pump through all waterblocks and the rad... I guess it's flowrate is high but what I need is a pump that can push water with high pressure, what is it called, how many meters above the pump the pump can push the water...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Haired Git
Flow above 3LPM is sufficient with modern blocks.
I guess with 1/3 of that I'm a bit low

Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Haired Git
That vid card looks like it will be to blame though. The fitting look industrial, so there may be scope to drill them out for less restriction?
My funny fittings on the GFX card did suprisingly little difference... And yes; they are industrial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProHandyman
What are the inside, and ouside diameters of your hose? What type of pipe thred is on the GPU Block... I know the perfect type of fitting, and available in Europe, but I need that info in order to help you.
Inside hose: 10mm Outside: 15mm
Thread on GPU block: 1/4"
Would appreciate it very much....

TerraMex; I think you are pretty much spot on
I guess I need a much stronger pump for my setup, can you give me any recommendations?
It would be cool if it would fit inside the AquaComputer fmj housing (the magnetic field from the Eheim pump made my CRT monitors screen move/shake...)
But criteria no1 for the pump is that it must be totally silent... I am going watercooling because I want to overclock but still be able to have a very quiet computer...
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Unread 04-04-2006, 03:24 PM   #7
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

What you need is a 1/4" m to a 1/4" f 90* swivel fitting, then you can use a 1/4"m to the proper hose bib.

I have been looking, but since I am in the US, harder for me to locate in the EU. Since you know now what you need, either a fitting company, or a member here from the EU can help you out.

The specific Innovatek fittings only go to a 8mm ID hose... no good.
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Unread 04-04-2006, 07:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

It's your innovatek reservoir. (From the picture you have the old style milled-from aluminum model)
No kidding.
I had a number (three? four?) systems built with these and they all cavitated a bit. You can stick a bit of open celled foam in there (the material eheim supplies as an intake filter for their submerged fish pumps works great) or a bit or rolled up nylon screening (use a heatgun or some such to fuse the exposed ends so you don't end up with a loose screen "wire" loose in your system).
Or you could just go for an updated innovatek reservoir. They're made of ABS, but they're alco solved the cavitation issue. The problem there (for your setup) is that the inlet is moved to the top.

Oh - high speed PC's got 'em back in stock.
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Unread 04-04-2006, 08:02 PM   #9
TerraMex
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

(edited)
that second pump looks like a johnson pump, ewwwh. (crappy, i've actually seen a project done with 6 of those, didn't last long.)

Anyway, if you want more head then i suggest you upgrade your pump to a DDC or a DDC+, wont hurt. Althou 8/10 is a bit restrictive, it's not the end of the world. Just keep it constant.
I also have a few switches (due to inserts) in diameter.

Btw, I've never seen a 1048 cavitate due to the res, and here that combo is very popular.
How'd you figure?
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Last edited by TerraMex; 04-04-2006 at 08:08 PM.
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Unread 04-04-2006, 09:51 PM   #10
bobkoure
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

no, no - 1046s cavitating due to this reservoir.
It was badly designed, but probably didn't cause a lot of trouble with a 1046 pushing water through a fairly restrictive innovatek block via 8mm ID tubing. So maybe "bad design" is a bit harsh - maybe more like "design not applicable to what folks in the US would consider to be "normal" flow rates"...

The cavity on the aluminum reservoirs was cylindrical, and the inlet was on the side - if you wanted to make something cavitate on purpose, all you'd need to do additionally would be to angle the inlet a little bit. Further, the nosepiece of a 1046 (or 1048) would protrude into the center of the cylinder (so if you had a whirlpool happening the pump inlet would be right where there was air).

The second one's good, though (if you're using a pump that fits). The cavity is square (well, irregular, but square corners and planar surfaces) and the inlet comes in from the top.
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Unread 04-04-2006, 11:05 PM   #11
hanzzon
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
It's your innovatek reservoir. (From the picture you have the old style milled-from aluminum model)
No kidding.
I had a number (three? four?) systems built with these and they all cavitated a bit. You can stick a bit of open celled foam in there (the material eheim supplies as an intake filter for their submerged fish pumps works great) or a bit or rolled up nylon screening (use a heatgun or some such to fuse the exposed ends so you don't end up with a loose screen "wire" loose in your system).
Or you could just go for an updated innovatek reservoir. They're made of ABS, but they're alco solved the cavitation issue. The problem there (for your setup) is that the inlet is moved to the top.

Oh - high speed PC's got 'em back in stock.
Since I said I did the tests in the bathhub without the Reservoir even connected and the pump fully submerged I do not think that is the issue... I first thought it was cavitation because it would stop for a small while and then continue if I tilted the case, though I now attribute that to voodoo magic :P

I still think it is strange because from AquaComputer you can buy very restrictive waterblocks yet they only offer a Eheim pump as powerful as mine is (1048)

The reason as I said my Eheim 1048 rattles is too restrictive waterblocks not anything else as I previously thought...
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Unread 04-05-2006, 04:13 PM   #12
hanzzon
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraMex
(edited)
Anyway, if you want more head then i suggest you upgrade your pump to a DDC or a DDC+, wont hurt. Althou 8/10 is a bit restrictive, it's not the end of the world. Just keep it constant.
Well, I now fully realize I do indeed need a new pump...

I'm looking at these:

Eheim 1250
WaterChill Xtreme
And the DDC(+)

Are there any more I should consider?

To me the WaterChill Xtreme looks very impressive because it has protection for magnetic interference (caused by itself that is) and a Hmax of 2.40m, quite a lift (phun intended) from my current Eheim 1048 at 1.5m...

What I don't like is it's "quick connected" fittings... (can they be exchanged somehow?) and it's price, though the other pumps I listed are in the same league so...

Are there any more pumps I should consider?
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Unread 04-05-2006, 05:08 PM   #13
ProHandyman
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

I'd stick with the DDC(+) Proven performers, especially under the conditions you are expiriencing. Just m2cw
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Unread 04-06-2006, 09:53 AM   #14
TerraMex
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

the ddc is your best bet, if you can get the ddc+.
ddc is 10w, 3,7m head,
ddc+ is 18w, 4,7m head. (ass., aprox.)

... and a good pump is always expensive.
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Unread 04-06-2006, 12:01 PM   #15
hanzzon
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

ProHandyman & TerraMex; thnx for your feedback, I have ordered a Laing DDC Ultra waterpump with water tank from AlphaCool Germany, I also could not resist their Silmstar Dual HDD cooler
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Unread 04-16-2006, 08:24 AM   #16
hanzzon
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

Okay, got the stuff this Thursday, installed it and it looked beautiful, really nice work on that plexi tank I bought with the DDC+... It also pumps really well, I did not manage to do any flowrate tests because the pump can not run submerged and I had the tank on it so I would have to fill water into it with the pump running to do the test...

But anyway, the flowrate was really really good through my restrictive blocks... I also got the proper fittings for the NVXP-3 so it looks allot better now...

The pump is maybe not as quiet as the 1048 but it is still a very very quiet pump, I think I will be very happy with it...

The sad news is that once I had got the air out of the system and left it off for an hour and then came back to actually start the computer too it did not work anymore So I will have to do a RMA and hope for better luck with the replacement pump...
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Unread 04-16-2006, 08:54 AM   #17
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

Glad everything worked out right at the end and your satisfied.

Sorry to hear about the pump! Makes sure when filling the system, that the pump never runs dry! This may require "pulsing" the pump power, ie: fill res. with water... power pump till res is just above pump intake, then power off; Fill res... power up.... power off; till you get system filled.

Once your system is "purged" of all air, let it run for 12-24 hours without powering-up the computer system. This will allow small bubles to be removed, good check for leaks, and hopefully catch a defective part before powering up system. Most pumps if going to fail, fail at initial startup and purge, or after the first full run, then power off, power on sequence (like yours did).

Hey, post some pics of the updated system if you would! Really would like to see the changes you made!
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Unread 04-16-2006, 10:10 AM   #18
hanzzon
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

ProHandyman: I "helped" the pump by sucking the water through the system myself... So it never did run dry...

I will post a picture of the system when I get the new pump, right now it is disassembled again
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Unread 05-22-2006, 01:56 PM   #19
hanzzon
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

Finally got the pump back, not very impressed with the turnaround time (look at the date of my previous post...)

Anyway it's working ok but the way I have set it up now I can't get all air out of the system

The water goes from the Pump, straight up to the rad then down to the CPU>GPU>Chipset and then back up to the HDD cooler and finally back into the tank ontop of the pump...

I know I have air in the system because the pump makes a very annoying noise...

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Unread 05-22-2006, 04:14 PM   #20
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

If the noise you hear is from air, you should be able to see the bubbles in the pump "resevoir". Alternatively, your loop could be to restrictive, causing the pump to be fighting the pressure, or suction... or you have a noisey pump.

Try running the pump with inlet and outlet hoses in a loop with just your rad and cpu block to see if it is as noisey. Does your rad have a bleed screw on it? That would help some.
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Unread 05-22-2006, 11:02 PM   #21
hanzzon
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProHandyman
If the noise you hear is from air, you should be able to see the bubbles in the pump "resevoir". Alternatively, your loop could be to restrictive, causing the pump to be fighting the pressure, or suction... or you have a noisey pump.
I see only very small and few bubbles in the tank
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProHandyman
Try running the pump with inlet and outlet hoses in a loop with just your rad and cpu block to see if it is as noisey. Does your rad have a bleed screw on it? That would help some.
The other DDC+ pump handeled the loop just fine, before it failed that is...

The flowrate is impressivley good, have not measured it but there is allot of water going through the system, so I do not think it is too restrictive...

I'll think about installing a bleed screw on the radiator...
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Unread 05-28-2006, 06:48 AM   #22
hanzzon
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Default Re: Cavitation or Airleak?

Just as a small update, if I leave the system on for about 24 hours it will be quiet..

But if I then only add a drop of water or touch the pump it will be noisy for 24 hours again... I added some of the foam from my Eheim pump into the tank but it did not seem to make a difference...
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