Order of things.

TiTch · 03-29-2002, 12:36 PM

What is the best order for parts on my water system. Here it says pump, rad, block, as the water hits the block just after cooling. However swiftech says pump, block, rad. They say this order so that the water hits the block at its highest pressure (what the block needs for heat removal) and the rad after its lost a bit of its oomph (just what the rad needs for effective heat exchange).

Does anyone know if there has ever been any tests to see which is best or is this based purely on theory as both seam very sound to me.

Cyco-Dude · 03-29-2002, 04:09 PM

thats a good question...............................

Kevin · 03-29-2002, 04:26 PM

It doesn't really lose any oomph when it hits the radiator. Current is, just like in an electrical circuit, constant throughout a loop. It is impossible for the flow of water to be slower in some parts than in other parts. As far as pressure, pressure may be slightly greater in the block if that were first in the system. However, you need to weigh whether you'd rather have higher pressure in the block or the heat generated by the pump removed by the radiator first. I suppose it all matters on whether your block is one in which pressure matters more or if your pump adds a lot of heat. Either way, it shouldn't make too much of a difference.
-Kevin

Cyco-Dude · 03-29-2002, 04:35 PM

this has been discussed befor; while the flow rate may be constant, the velocity of the water thru the system can vary.
also, exactly how much will the pump heat the water? i dont think it would heat the water so much as to affect the CPU temps. comments please...

Brad · 03-29-2002, 08:09 PM

I still think rad just before the block. the flow is the same throughout the loop, the only way it can be faster is if it is forced through a narrow channel

Kevin · 03-29-2002, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cyco-Dude
this has been discussed befor; while the flow rate may be constant, the velocity of the water thru the system can vary.

Explain...

Kevin · 03-29-2002, 09:51 PM

I'm pretty sure the velocity/flowrate thing is nonsense. Flow is the same throughout the loop.

Haddy · 03-29-2002, 10:21 PM

ah yes the eternal debate SHOULD THE RADIATOR OR THE PUMP GO BEFORE THE CPU.....i say try both and c what kinda temps u get, sense no one setup will work with every system..jmo

redleader · 03-29-2002, 10:24 PM

I would be surprised if the difference wasn't immeasurably small between the two, unless maybe you had a very tiny pump.

jaydee · 03-29-2002, 10:32 PM

I have been beating my head off the freekin wall trying to figure out what is different between the two is as people say they can be different in the same loop. I think I have figured it out somewhat.

Flow is the amount of water from point A to point B.

Volocity is how fast that water gets from point A to point B.

Think of it as a river. The water moves slower through the flats and faster through the rapids. In the rapids the volocity gets quicker and in the flats the volocity returns to normal.

Also if the river gets narrower and the depth stays the same it has to move faster as you are pushing the same amount of flow through a smaller opening wich increases the volocity.

(God damn I spent way to much time fishing out of my kayak in the river.

)

Bahahaha!!! I don't know if that made since or not but I got myself convienced!!!

Brad · 03-29-2002, 11:13 PM

jaydee is right, but people still don't get it, and people will ask the same question somewhere on this forum inside a week

Kevin · 03-30-2002, 12:08 AM

jaydee is partially correct...

While water may change speed inside a block or radiator due to friction, restriction, and channel width, the velocity/flow rate of the water (which are the exact same things btw...), is the same going into the barb as it is coming out.

And for the whole velocity is different than flow rate argument, velocity is a measure of an amount vs. time. Flow rate is gallons (amount) per hour (time).

-Kevin

TiTch · 03-30-2002, 02:59 AM

So if I get this right, the flowrate will not be effected by the order of things and there is not likely to be much differnce if you use an inline pump like a ehiem. What is more important is that you connect everything in an order that decreases backpressure and therefore enables the pump to work more efficantly. So what I should do is to place my items in the case and then connect them in the order that creates the straightest lines and not worry about anything else.

jaydee · 03-30-2002, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TiTch
So if I get this right, the flowrate will not be effected by the order of things and there is not likely to be much differnce if you use an inline pump like a ehiem. What is more important is that you connect everything in an order that decreases backpressure and therefore enables the pump to work more efficantly. So what I should do is to place my items in the case and then connect them in the order that creates the straightest lines and not worry about anything else.

It should not matter what order things are mounted as they will create the same back pressure in any order they are mounted. How will one part not create backpressure in one spot and create it in another.

Anyway I always go Pump---Rad---Block to get the cooled water to the block the fastest.

jaydee · 03-30-2002, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin
jaydee is partially correct...

While water may change speed inside a block or radiator due to friction, restriction, and channel width, the velocity/flow rate of the water (which are the exact same things btw...), is the same going into the barb as it is coming out.

And for the whole velocity is different than flow rate argument, velocity is a measure of an amount vs. time. Flow rate is gallons (amount) per hour (time).

-Kevin

I'll buy that. The overall "system" measurement is from point A to point B, not at any point in between. So yes in that respect they are the same just put differently.

But as for velocity changing in the system as a design that changes things. Point A to point B maybe from the inlet of the block to the outlet of the block. The volocity through that section maybe faster than in the hose carring the water to the block. And in turn the flow should be faster inside the block.

But from outlet of pump(through rad/block) to inlet of pump that is one constant measurement in the form of flow or volocity, which either should mean the same.

TiTch · 03-30-2002, 09:53 AM

Quote:

It should not matter what order things are mounted as they will create the same back pressure in any order they are mounted. How will one part not create backpressure in one spot and create it in another.

Sorry, you appear to have missunderstood me. As items like blocks stay the same with regards to the pressure they create the only area of variable on my system is the connecting tubes between them, hence the bit where I say "in a straight line". Therefore, how I connect them could well be more important than the order they are in.

However, the feelings that I am getting is that no one rearly knows one way or another as it has never been tested.:shrug:

Yes, I fully accept what you are saying jaydee116 and that the same amount of water has to go back to the pump that went out in a closed system or our water systems would run out of water. Therefore what Swiftech say about the placement of the block being nearest to the pump as it has the greatest pressure has to be wrong. It is the design of the item that dictates the flow pressure / speed through it as the water in / out has to be the same.

jaydee · 03-30-2002, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TiTch

Sorry, you appear to have missunderstood me. As items like blocks stay the same with regards to the pressure they create the only area of variable on my system is the connecting tubes between them, hence the bit where I say "in a straight line". Therefore, how I connect them could well be more important than the order they are in.

However, the feelings that I am getting is that no one rearly knows one way or another as it has never been tested.:shrug:

I see. Every system is different so no one can really test it accuratly for every system. That is something you will just have to experiment with to find the best route. Although I doubt the gains will be much in any case, but it is always good to find out.

Mr Evil · 03-30-2002, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin
jaydee is partially correct...

While water may change speed inside a block or radiator due to friction, restriction, and channel width, the velocity/flow rate of the water (which are the exact same things btw...), is the same going into the barb as it is coming out.

And for the whole velocity is different than flow rate argument, velocity is a measure of an amount vs. time. Flow rate is gallons (amount) per hour (time).

-Kevin

Water does not change speed inside a waterblock. What changes is pressure.

Velocity and flow rate are not the same thing. Velocity is distance per unit time, whereas flow rate is volume per unit time. Actually, to be more accurate we should say speed, since velocity is distance per unit time + a direction (velocity is a vector), but direction is not important here.

Flow rate is constant throughout the system. It could not possibly be any other way. Could you put more water into something than comes out the other end?

Try this analogy: Imagine a road with one lane, and one mile long. To get a 'flow rate' of one car per minute, each car must travel at 60mph (to take one minute to traverse one mile). Now image a road with six lanes, and one mile long. To get one car per minute dow nthis road, each car need only travel at 10mph, since six cars can fit in parallel.

This is equivalent to how different sized tubes, waterblocks etc can have different water velocities but the same flow rate - the larger the passage, the lower the velocity for a given flow rate. jaydee116 said the same thing in a different way.

Back to the original question: Water is virtually incompressible, so the density won't increase with pressure (increasing heat capacity), and copper is impermeable, so water won't be forced into the surface (which would change cooling). I cannot see any other way that higher water pressure could affect a waterblock's efficiency.

I have tested a water cooling setup with different orders, but I could not detect any significant difference. This was a long time ago though, and without good measurements.

Kevin · 03-30-2002, 02:08 PM

Mr. Evil, you are correct. You got me on a technicality.

I'm just not quite as articulate as you are...

-Kev

03-29-2002, 12:36 PM	#1
TiTch Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: London, UK. Posts: 64	Order of things. What is the best order for parts on my water system. Here it says pump, rad, block, as the water hits the block just after cooling. However swiftech says pump, block, rad. They say this order so that the water hits the block at its highest pressure (what the block needs for heat removal) and the rad after its lost a bit of its oomph (just what the rad needs for effective heat exchange). Does anyone know if there has ever been any tests to see which is best or is this based purely on theory as both seam very sound to me.

03-29-2002, 04:26 PM	#3
Kevin Slacking more than your weird uncle Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD) / Los Angeles, CA (home) Posts: 1,605	It doesn't really lose any oomph when it hits the radiator. Current is, just like in an electrical circuit, constant throughout a loop. It is impossible for the flow of water to be slower in some parts than in other parts. As far as pressure, pressure may be slightly greater in the block if that were first in the system. However, you need to weigh whether you'd rather have higher pressure in the block or the heat generated by the pump removed by the radiator first. I suppose it all matters on whether your block is one in which pressure matters more or if your pump adds a lot of heat. Either way, it shouldn't make too much of a difference. -Kevin __________________ I used to throw hot coffee all over the ass of the horse there, then whip him while he was kickin' at me. Those f***in things are crazy.

03-29-2002, 08:09 PM	#5
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	I still think rad just before the block. the flow is the same throughout the loop, the only way it can be faster is if it is forced through a narrow channel __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

03-29-2002, 09:51 PM	#7
Kevin Slacking more than your weird uncle Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD) / Los Angeles, CA (home) Posts: 1,605	I'm pretty sure the velocity/flowrate thing is nonsense. Flow is the same throughout the loop. __________________ I used to throw hot coffee all over the ass of the horse there, then whip him while he was kickin' at me. Those f***in things are crazy.

03-29-2002, 10:32 PM	#10
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I have been beating my head off the freekin wall trying to figure out what is different between the two is as people say they can be different in the same loop. I think I have figured it out somewhat. Flow is the amount of water from point A to point B. Volocity is how fast that water gets from point A to point B. Think of it as a river. The water moves slower through the flats and faster through the rapids. In the rapids the volocity gets quicker and in the flats the volocity returns to normal. Also if the river gets narrower and the depth stays the same it has to move faster as you are pushing the same amount of flow through a smaller opening wich increases the volocity. (God damn I spent way to much time fishing out of my kayak in the river.) Bahahaha!!! I don't know if that made since or not but I got myself convienced!!!

03-29-2002, 04:09 PM	#2
Cyco-Dude Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 836	thats a good question...............................

03-29-2002, 04:35 PM	#4
Cyco-Dude Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 836	this has been discussed befor; while the flow rate may be constant, the velocity of the water thru the system can vary. also, exactly how much will the pump heat the water? i dont think it would heat the water so much as to affect the CPU temps. comments please...

03-29-2002, 10:21 PM	#8
Haddy Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 434	ah yes the eternal debate SHOULD THE RADIATOR OR THE PUMP GO BEFORE THE CPU.....i say try both and c what kinda temps u get, sense no one setup will work with every system..jmo

03-29-2002, 10:24 PM	#9
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	I would be surprised if the difference wasn't immeasurably small between the two, unless maybe you had a very tiny pump.

03-29-2002, 11:13 PM	#11
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	jaydee is right, but people still don't get it, and people will ask the same question somewhere on this forum inside a week __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

03-30-2002, 12:08 AM	#12
Kevin Slacking more than your weird uncle Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD) / Los Angeles, CA (home) Posts: 1,605	wrong jaydee is partially correct... While water may change speed inside a block or radiator due to friction, restriction, and channel width, the velocity/flow rate of the water (which are the exact same things btw...), is the same going into the barb as it is coming out. And for the whole velocity is different than flow rate argument, velocity is a measure of an amount vs. time. Flow rate is gallons (amount) per hour (time). -Kevin __________________ I used to throw hot coffee all over the ass of the horse there, then whip him while he was kickin' at me. Those f***in things are crazy.

03-30-2002, 02:59 AM	#13
TiTch Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: London, UK. Posts: 64	So if I get this right, the flowrate will not be effected by the order of things and there is not likely to be much differnce if you use an inline pump like a ehiem. What is more important is that you connect everything in an order that decreases backpressure and therefore enables the pump to work more efficantly. So what I should do is to place my items in the case and then connect them in the order that creates the straightest lines and not worry about anything else.

03-30-2002, 02:08 PM	#19
Kevin Slacking more than your weird uncle Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD) / Los Angeles, CA (home) Posts: 1,605	Mr. Evil, you are correct. You got me on a technicality. I'm just not quite as articulate as you are... -Kev __________________ I used to throw hot coffee all over the ass of the horse there, then whip him while he was kickin' at me. Those f***in things are crazy.

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