New Title : Lytron stuff ( The thread formerly known as boobs)

decodeddiesel · 08-13-2002, 04:50 PM

Just browsing around the net and decieded to check out the Lytron site, http://www.lytron.com. Well I must say if ever there was a template for which the capabilities of watercooling blocks and heat exchangers should follow I think they hit it square on the head.

For example here is the page to their top Cu heat exchangers follow the link here http://www.lytron.com/standard/he_6000.htm to the 2003 catalog section. On it there's a pdf file under showing the different models and the performance charts for the models. I appologize but in order to see them Lytron wants some info on you, trust me it's worth it to enter it!!

Included are Q/Initial Temperature Difference charts for all radiators which are across realistic flow rates and CFM values, as well as coolant pressure drop curves and air flow pressure drop curves.

If you follow this link here http://www.lytron.com/standard/cp_extended.htm to the 2003 catalog setction you will find their "cold plates" or as we call them waterblocks. Once again they include just about everything you would want to know about their waterblocks on the PDF.

If you are a regular there and I just wasted your time, I appologize but I thought it was good and wated to share with everyone. Let me tell you, it sure would be nice if the smaller companies would post something to this effect instead of just letting everyone guess and/or base their decision on looks and marketing. It is sad, but I bet we will never see something like this in the "hobbiest" world of CPU watercooling.

EDIT: I guess everyone wants to see my girlfriends boobies, so here ya go...

EDIT 2: this is my other GF Christina Ricci, aka Wednesday from "The Adams Family"

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-13-2002, 05:45 PM

I'd hate to put your hope down buddy but this lytron company makes cooling solutions for industries.. not your computer..

decodeddiesel · 08-13-2002, 06:24 PM

did you even read my post? I said nothing about wanting to use their equipment in my rig, rather I was marveling at the ammount of information which they back their products with and commenting on how it would be nice if WB manufactures would do something like that.

Regardless, aside from a prohibitivly high price on many of their products why couldn't you use it in your computer??? Although I hate linking to this forum, mota used Lytron products rather tastfully and successfully here

koslov · 08-13-2002, 06:40 PM

That is one massive rad, and two 172mm fans (6.75in)on it! That has gotta be able to handle massive heat loads. As for their "coldplates" they look expensive, but I wonder how they would compare to even the best of our waterblocks.

Like the new title, BTW.

Brians256 · 08-13-2002, 06:40 PM

I just about split my gut when I saw that you changed the title to my facetious suggestion.

decodeddiesel · 08-13-2002, 06:49 PM

"Made ya Look!!"

Brians256 · 08-13-2002, 07:08 PM

I'll reiterate something I said on the IRC channel. I'm really impressed that they did the full monty and published such exhaustive specs. That's the mark of a real company. They have tested their product well enough that they KNOW what it will do. In addition, they aren't afraid to tell people. It isn't about marketing hype. This is real engineering.

Note: I've nothing against the hobby side. I just don't like people assuming that the hype is true. If you have something that you haven't tested (see some of the problems with real testing on the other thread about testing waterblocks), then you should just say that you THINK it's a good part. There's more to watercooling than, "Well, it was 35C on my mobo thermistor when I was surfing the web."

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-13-2002, 07:09 PM

I don't agree with you though.. I mean water block makers sell their stuff for a few bux.. I mean it's rediculous for them to write up a PDF file on this crap.. Now this company sells to the industry.. they charge lots of money... it's expected of them as a professional company.

If you know GeminiCool's products.. you know you could e-mail him and get more detailed specs from him.. he's a machine shop guy.. places like dangerden are just a bunch of (guys?) who do this for a living.. they don't do anything else but make water cooling stuff.. as far as I know.. They aren't a professional machine shop... They will sell their products to you through looks and promises of good temps with thick copper blocks.. etc etc etc..

Sled_Dog · 08-13-2002, 08:42 PM

I have to say it, go back to the [H]ard Forum. I mean who ever said that the way a business is run is "the smaller the company the less quality expected"?? Danger Den is a bunch of people with pretty much a machine shop making these. They take time and test and work on the best designs they can come up with the tools they have and skills. And you know what they do pretty well. They don't just say "we think it cools well" they give you a link to an independent review of their product and say "look see what you think from this information". It would be nice if they did what Lytron did but I am not expecting that anytime soon. It is really pretty stupid to say that just cause they don't sell as many units or to high dollar companies that they shouldn't test their stuff. And may I ask why you say that the machine shop guy who seems to do this as a hobby would have more detailed information then say Danger Den who do it for a living? Am I missing something there? I must agree with Brian though we need better testing in more forms. Too many places slap a block on and see taht it flows water and give it a glowing review. It would really be nice to see Danger Den or Swiftech testing their stuff this exstensively.

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-13-2002, 09:58 PM

because I know that at gemini he knows what he is talking about.. I've already e-mailed dangerden with questions and never got an answer.. It's pretty simple and obvious.. THey have this HUGE block of copper that's all like WOOO!! it's the jesus of cooling!

Then you look at gemini's products which is a tiny block of copper with a smaller water channel and it performs just as good if not better..

DangerDen doesn't know all of these detailed thermo dynamic specs of their products.. Or else they would list them.

It's not that hard to make a good looking water block.. any idiot with time and the right tools could do it.

It takes real brains to design a product that actually performs good with minimal resource use though.. and then actually be able to back your product up with knowledge.

It's hard to explain.. but I don't really care what you believe.. believe whatever you want. All I know is that a higher level of professionalism is expected from an industrial company like Lytron though.. then from a small "what the hell is water cooling on a regular computer anyway" company like danger den..

jaydee · 08-13-2002, 10:01 PM

I think you guys forget he average user not only does not KNOW what the info in a detailed PDF means, but they do not CARE either!

Of course you have to make a PDF for industrial use, because pros are installing the stuff that know what the info means and it is their job to care.

It is a waste of time/money for peeps at places like DD to do this. As long as people are happy with their blocks and keep buying them that is all that really matters. I am sure they do a small amount of their own testing to make sure their block is not a total flop before marketing it. Total accuracy is really not needed to tell if a block is good or not.

Sled_Dog · 08-13-2002, 10:36 PM

Do you think that DD doesn't take time in their designs? Look at the original Maze 1. Then the Maze 2, nah no though there. Then Look at the next Maze 2, nah that was just a 5 second design and implimentation on a napkin. Hmm the Maze 1C not like it actually improved over anything oh wait maybe it did. Come on man you seem to think that DD just slaps together a block and throws it out and know everyone will buy them.

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-13-2002, 10:43 PM

Dude.. It's really not THAT hard to come up with a new block design.. Honestly.. the maze3 was nothing.. they just took the spiral idea and put F'in lexan on the top!

Seriously dude.. stop defending them.. I am starting to think you work there or something.. They are good people but honestly their blocks aren't the best around.. or anything to be praised like flying monkeys.

ARRGHH!! whatever.. you can't win with ignorance...

Thanks JayDee.. that is the point I was trying to get across.

jaydee · 08-13-2002, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sled_Dog
Come on man you seem to think that DD just slaps together a block and throws it out and know everyone will buy them.

I don't know if you are refering to me or not, but non the less I would say yes. The Maze1 was not rocket science. Took me all of 10mins to draw up a similar version and another 10mins to mill it. The maze 2? I thought it was an obvious design. Takes about 35mins to draw up and another hour or so to make the code all work right. The maze 3? All it is is a modified e design that has been out forever. That block took the most time to make the code because of the extra little grooves thay made as it also takes a tool change stop. But no, I really see nothing to indecate any real scientific though behind any of their blocks. Looks like a lot of obvious designs anyone would think up. The only difference between anyone and them as they have the machine shop and the knowlege to use it.

decodeddiesel · 08-13-2002, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Dude.. It's really not THAT hard to come up with a new block design.. Honestly.. the maze3 was nothing.. they just took the spiral idea and put F'in lexan on the top!

Um, no it took more than that to come up with that design...

Quote:

ARRGHH!! whatever.. you can't win with ignorance...

No arguement there (but I think you just shot yourself in the foot with that comment).

decodeddiesel · 08-13-2002, 10:50 PM

You are all amazingly prooving my point and refuting it at the same time. Honestly I didn't think that would happen, but hey thats what forums are for, no?

jaydee · 08-13-2002, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by decodeddiesel

Um, no it took more than that to come up with that design...

It shouldn't have.

Look at it, it is a modified e design with some special touches. I don't understand why you think they put any real scientific though into this other than common since(although advanced common since as block makers). I bet it took longer to figure out how to get the right size O ring than anything else.

Sled_Dog · 08-13-2002, 11:03 PM

no jaydee I was not talking about you, and yes I know the maze 1 was simple, but my point is they don't just sit and punch random shit into the CNC they do think about where the entrance and exit holes go and where passages go over. Do you think the spiral took very long to design(no offense fixxitt)? And umm am I missing something when punisher said that the Maze 3 was a spiral with a lexan top? weren't the original spirals lexan topped?

pHaestus · 08-13-2002, 11:12 PM

Keep an eye on ebay; you can occasionally find parts or complete cooling systems for under $100. Most likely better than you can put together yourself, and in a professional enclosure. For those thin plate blocks must have pump with some ooomph; if you recall I was wanting a positive displacement pump a while back?

jaydee · 08-13-2002, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sled_Dog
no jaydee I was not talking about you, and yes I know the maze 1 was simple, but my point is they don't just sit and punch random shit into the CNC they do think about where the entrance and exit holes go and where passages go over. Do you think the spiral took very long to design(no offense fixxitt)? And umm am I missing something when punisher said that the Maze 3 was a spiral with a lexan top? weren't the original spirals lexan topped?

The original Spir@ls from Fixittt where metal tops. Geminis Spirals where some kind of plexy, probably lexan. Yes you are right. there is definatly though into where the barbs the O ring and what not go. But my point was that there is not any special fluid dynamics science other than common since in any of their blocks. Therefor a PDF really cannot be usefull. I bet the Maze 3 took some time to figure out. I bet they had quite a few bad runs before they made everything work right. I don't see much more than 8hrs with someone that really knows what they are doing though. The maze 2 is rather simple really. I have a similar version I made up but using 1/4" channels. I spent about 2 hrs on ACAD and I really don't know ACAD that well. Another hour with the CNC code, which I also am not to fast with yet.

There are a couple blocks I seen that I think actually have some real fluid dynamics though behind it and that is the Swiftech blocks. Also Peter from Gemini says his Spirals are all about fluid dynamics. Innovtech (sp?) also may have some extra thougt. But I don't see DD blocks have anything special. Just goes to show you can spend large amounts of research dollars just to get a C or 2 better than anyone with CNC mill and a little knowlege on how to use it.

ItsSoLARGE · 08-14-2002, 12:07 AM

well I clicked thinking i might have seen some boobies.. considering LiquidCool showed us his GFs

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-14-2002, 12:18 AM

I agree with JayDee all the way.
It's like me and JD are the only ones with common sense here

I'm not such a newb with water blocks.. I have seen Gemini's blocks in person.. He put serious thermodynamic rules into his block. What DD does is nothing that anyone couldn't do.

Infact in about an hour I came up with 2 block designs and drew them out. If I knew ACAD I could of put them in to an ACAD design as well.

You people take this water block making thing way to seriously. DD does nothing special to make their blocks.. no rocket science goes into them. I bet that they don't even know much about thermodynamics (as in took classes in college etc).

If you are so dumb as to look at the maze3 and not see it's just an ovbious spiral design and not rocket science then just shut up. I don't want to flame or be mean to anyone.. but this post has gone WAY to far. This post contains nothing useful to people. It's all a stupid rant about how some of us worship every move that DD makes and the others that can see the light of day and realize that you don't need 10lb's of copper to make a good block.

I am thoroughly disgusted at my Maze2 now.

I lift my maze2 up and then I go and check out Gemini's blocks and talk to Pete and he tells me all this crap how his blocks are just as good.. His fricken water blocks are TINY! They weigh nothing.. yet they are just as good as my lofty Maze2!

So you tell me.. who had more thought into this whole thing? DD ? Or someone with real knowledge like Pete at Gemini?

His block now is just as good if not better then the Maze3.. and the Maze3 is just another hunk of copper.. DD some how gets the idea that using large amounts of copper is better.. and that people will think the same thing.. maybe they think when you get your block and find it's this huge hunk of copper that it will perform better..

I don't know how we got to fighting about this whole PDF crap.. It's pretty simple that water cooling your PC is just a hobby thing.. I mean in theory it's pretty dumb. It doesn't give you any advantage over noise really.. it costs a lot.. it can be a pain to implement and maintain..

Who the hell needs a PDF that says all of this crap.. and gives a blocks specs etc etc?

The only reason that Lytron gives specs is because they sell to the INDUSTRY.. not joe shmoe have no F'in clue what the hell is going on.. People would be confused to all hell if they saw a PDF with all of these specs on it for a stupid 40 dollar waterblock.

This drives me INSANE!!

decodeddiesel · 08-14-2002, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
I don't agree with you though.. I mean water block makers sell their stuff for a few bux.. I mean it's rediculous for them to write up a PDF file on this crap.. Now this company sells to the industry.. they charge lots of money... it's expected of them as a professional company.

I suppose without any type of technical education the curves and performance figures would fall of deaf ears. Oh well..... Let me ask you a question though, would you buy a new PC or a car simply because the sales man says "Hey its fast, and it looks cool!!" Thats about all we have as a community to go off of when buying watercooling equipment. I'm afraid "it works good and looks cool" just doesn't cut the mustard these days when the differences between blocks performance is getting marginally smaller. There's a lot of us who want to know more than "it works good". I would even go as far as to say the people who are real geeks...er...watercooling users would actually USE this info in designing better performing systems (ie this block and this radiator at this mass flow rate A with a CPU of the power B will produce temps approximate to X for Y much $$).

Quote:

If you know GeminiCool's products.. you know you could e-mail him and get more detailed specs from him.. he's a machine shop guy.. places like dangerden are just a bunch of (guys?) who do this for a living.. they don't do anything else but make water cooling stuff.. as far as I know.. They aren't a professional machine shop... They will sell their products to you through looks and promises of good temps with thick copper blocks.. etc etc etc..

Really? Does he have accurate Thermal Resistance vs. Flow Rate curves like Lytron does? Seriously if he does I may be very interested in buying one of his blocks.

pHaestus · 08-14-2002, 01:05 AM

Data I have seen suggests that all labyrinthe type (maze) blocks perform pretty much the same for a given flow rate. Some appear to perform better than others in one's system due to differences in flow restriction. Not some marvel of thermodynamics, it is the fact that there is very little heat spreading from an AMD core coupled by the center inlet where cool water enters.

decoded: Swiftech puts considerable R&D into their blocks. If that is a design criteria then consider the MXW462-U. I am guessing Innovatek has some engineers that are on staff or are being consulted.

The single feature I would like to see waterblock and radiator manufacturers include is pressure drop vs flow rate. A DPT setup and a flow meter isn't THAT expensive, and it would be very helpful in putting together systems. Similar to the P-Q curves for fans or pumps that are available from the manufacturer typically.

decodeddiesel · 08-14-2002, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
I agree with JayDee all the way.
It's like me and JD are the only ones with common sense here

You people take this water block making thing way to seriously. DD does nothing special to make their blocks.. no rocket science goes into them. I bet that they don't even know much about thermodynamics (as in took classes in college etc).

If you are so dumb as to look at the maze3 and not see it's just an ovbious spiral design and not rocket science then just shut up. I don't want to flame or be mean to anyone.. but this post has gone WAY to far

I don't know how we got to fighting about this whole PDF crap.. It's pretty simple that water cooling your PC is just a hobby thing.. I mean in theory it's pretty dumb. It doesn't give you any advantage over noise really.. it costs a lot.. it can be a pain to implement and maintain..

Who the hell needs a PDF that says all of this crap.. and gives a blocks specs etc etc?

JESUS H. CHRIST!!!!!! do you actually read anything!!!!!!!! Look at the original damn post, I didn't start a thread to start a ****ing pissing match about how Gemini Blocks are better than Danger Den blocks, NO I started this thread to share with anyone who gives a damn something interesting which directly pertains to watercooling. You don't want to flame? WTF do you think you are doing here, planting roses!?!?!?!?

Do you know how much more effective watercooling is IN REAL WORLD INDUSTRIAL APPLICATIONS THAN AIR COOLING IS???? You know, some people don't want to see the as detailed data on a waterblock as others, but shit SOME PEOPLE WANT THAT DATA!!! Just because you don't doesn't mean you need to shit those who do, and yes some of us take it seriously but some of us are more serious about this as a hobby than others and need more of a chalenge than others who install watercooling simply for bragging rights, or because it looks cool behine their PC Mods window on their shinny new ATC case..

Quote:

The only reason that Lytron gives specs is because they sell to the INDUSTRY.. not joe shmoe have no F'in clue what the hell is going on.. People would be confused to all hell if they saw a PDF with all of these specs on it for a stupid 40 dollar waterblock.

Do you think liquid cooling electronics with TECs is that much different than what we do here?!?!?! Some of us know how to read a C/W curve.

Quote:

This drives me INSANE!!

I'll tell you what drives me insane, are these people who come balls out into a thread without reading

ONE GOD DAMN WORD OF IT

and then shit on it for everyone else who may of enjoyed it. It is blatantly obivuos from your comments you have read NONE of the thread content

Quote:

I'd hate to put your hope down buddy but this lytron company makes cooling solutions for industries.. not your computer..

Where in the hell did I mention I wanted to use Lytron products in my rig????

Quote:

I don't know how we got to fighting about this whole PDF crap..

Of course not, you don't even know what the thread is about

Quote:

Who the hell needs a PDF that says all of this crap.. and gives a blocks specs etc etc?

Maybe I do, maybe a couple others....regardless looks like you really haven't read one damn WORD!!

I posted this to inspire some thoughfull discussion on the data Lytron put forth and how it would be applicable to "our" watercooling. I especially think it dove tails nicely with the recent WB testing and performance measurment discussion which has been going on latley. Now though this thread has gone straight down the crapper. Well I though I had escaped this kind of thing by comming here...but now punisher you have proven me wrong, way to go.

08-13-2002, 04:50 PM	#1
decodeddiesel Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: classified Posts: 534	Are my g/f's boobs big enough? (56K beware) Just browsing around the net and decieded to check out the Lytron site, http://www.lytron.com. Well I must say if ever there was a template for which the capabilities of watercooling blocks and heat exchangers should follow I think they hit it square on the head. For example here is the page to their top Cu heat exchangers follow the link here http://www.lytron.com/standard/he_6000.htm to the 2003 catalog section. On it there's a pdf file under showing the different models and the performance charts for the models. I appologize but in order to see them Lytron wants some info on you, trust me it's worth it to enter it!! Included are Q/Initial Temperature Difference charts for all radiators which are across realistic flow rates and CFM values, as well as coolant pressure drop curves and air flow pressure drop curves. If you follow this link here http://www.lytron.com/standard/cp_extended.htm to the 2003 catalog setction you will find their "cold plates" or as we call them waterblocks. Once again they include just about everything you would want to know about their waterblocks on the PDF. If you are a regular there and I just wasted your time, I appologize but I thought it was good and wated to share with everyone. Let me tell you, it sure would be nice if the smaller companies would post something to this effect instead of just letting everyone guess and/or base their decision on looks and marketing. It is sad, but I bet we will never see something like this in the "hobbiest" world of CPU watercooling. EDIT: I guess everyone wants to see my girlfriends boobies, so here ya go... EDIT 2: this is my other GF Christina Ricci, aka Wednesday from "The Adams Family" __________________ ...i hurt... do me a favor, disconect me... they can re-work me but i'll never be top of the line again ...i'd rather be nothing... Last edited by decodeddiesel; 08-14-2002 at 07:48 PM.

08-13-2002, 06:24 PM	#3
decodeddiesel Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: classified Posts: 534	did you even read my post? I said nothing about wanting to use their equipment in my rig, rather I was marveling at the ammount of information which they back their products with and commenting on how it would be nice if WB manufactures would do something like that. Regardless, aside from a prohibitivly high price on many of their products why couldn't you use it in your computer??? Although I hate linking to this forum, mota used Lytron products rather tastfully and successfully here __________________ ...i hurt... do me a favor, disconect me... they can re-work me but i'll never be top of the line again ...i'd rather be nothing... Last edited by decodeddiesel; 08-13-2002 at 06:35 PM.

08-13-2002, 06:49 PM	#6
decodeddiesel Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: classified Posts: 534	"Made ya Look!!" __________________ ...i hurt... do me a favor, disconect me... they can re-work me but i'll never be top of the line again ...i'd rather be nothing...

08-13-2002, 08:42 PM	#9
Sled_Dog Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Snowyland(not Alaska) Posts: 238	I have to say it, go back to the [H]ard Forum. I mean who ever said that the way a business is run is "the smaller the company the less quality expected"?? Danger Den is a bunch of people with pretty much a machine shop making these. They take time and test and work on the best designs they can come up with the tools they have and skills. And you know what they do pretty well. They don't just say "we think it cools well" they give you a link to an independent review of their product and say "look see what you think from this information". It would be nice if they did what Lytron did but I am not expecting that anytime soon. It is really pretty stupid to say that just cause they don't sell as many units or to high dollar companies that they shouldn't test their stuff. And may I ask why you say that the machine shop guy who seems to do this as a hobby would have more detailed information then say Danger Den who do it for a living? Am I missing something there? I must agree with Brian though we need better testing in more forms. Too many places slap a block on and see taht it flows water and give it a glowing review. It would really be nice to see Danger Den or Swiftech testing their stuff this exstensively. __________________ pro/chat has a website now? wow Last edited by Sled_Dog; 08-13-2002 at 08:49 PM.

08-13-2002, 10:36 PM	#12
Sled_Dog Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Snowyland(not Alaska) Posts: 238	Do you think that DD doesn't take time in their designs? Look at the original Maze 1. Then the Maze 2, nah no though there. Then Look at the next Maze 2, nah that was just a 5 second design and implimentation on a napkin. Hmm the Maze 1C not like it actually improved over anything oh wait maybe it did. Come on man you seem to think that DD just slaps together a block and throws it out and know everyone will buy them. __________________ pro/chat has a website now? wow

08-13-2002, 05:45 PM	#2
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	I'd hate to put your hope down buddy but this lytron company makes cooling solutions for industries.. not your computer..

08-13-2002, 06:40 PM	#4
koslov Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Posts: 264	That is one massive rad, and two 172mm fans (6.75in)on it! That has gotta be able to handle massive heat loads. As for their "coldplates" they look expensive, but I wonder how they would compare to even the best of our waterblocks. Like the new title, BTW.

08-13-2002, 06:40 PM	#5
Brians256 Pro/Staff Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 1,439	I just about split my gut when I saw that you changed the title to my facetious suggestion.

08-13-2002, 07:08 PM	#7
Brians256 Pro/Staff Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 1,439	I'll reiterate something I said on the IRC channel. I'm really impressed that they did the full monty and published such exhaustive specs. That's the mark of a real company. They have tested their product well enough that they KNOW what it will do. In addition, they aren't afraid to tell people. It isn't about marketing hype. This is real engineering. Note: I've nothing against the hobby side. I just don't like people assuming that the hype is true. If you have something that you haven't tested (see some of the problems with real testing on the other thread about testing waterblocks), then you should just say that you THINK it's a good part. There's more to watercooling than, "Well, it was 35C on my mobo thermistor when I was surfing the web."

08-13-2002, 07:09 PM	#8
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	I don't agree with you though.. I mean water block makers sell their stuff for a few bux.. I mean it's rediculous for them to write up a PDF file on this crap.. Now this company sells to the industry.. they charge lots of money... it's expected of them as a professional company. If you know GeminiCool's products.. you know you could e-mail him and get more detailed specs from him.. he's a machine shop guy.. places like dangerden are just a bunch of (guys?) who do this for a living.. they don't do anything else but make water cooling stuff.. as far as I know.. They aren't a professional machine shop... They will sell their products to you through looks and promises of good temps with thick copper blocks.. etc etc etc..

08-13-2002, 09:58 PM	#10
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	because I know that at gemini he knows what he is talking about.. I've already e-mailed dangerden with questions and never got an answer.. It's pretty simple and obvious.. THey have this HUGE block of copper that's all like WOOO!! it's the jesus of cooling! Then you look at gemini's products which is a tiny block of copper with a smaller water channel and it performs just as good if not better.. DangerDen doesn't know all of these detailed thermo dynamic specs of their products.. Or else they would list them. It's not that hard to make a good looking water block.. any idiot with time and the right tools could do it. It takes real brains to design a product that actually performs good with minimal resource use though.. and then actually be able to back your product up with knowledge. It's hard to explain.. but I don't really care what you believe.. believe whatever you want. All I know is that a higher level of professionalism is expected from an industrial company like Lytron though.. then from a small "what the hell is water cooling on a regular computer anyway" company like danger den..

08-13-2002, 10:01 PM	#11
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I think you guys forget he average user not only does not KNOW what the info in a detailed PDF means, but they do not CARE either! Of course you have to make a PDF for industrial use, because pros are installing the stuff that know what the info means and it is their job to care. It is a waste of time/money for peeps at places like DD to do this. As long as people are happy with their blocks and keep buying them that is all that really matters. I am sure they do a small amount of their own testing to make sure their block is not a total flop before marketing it. Total accuracy is really not needed to tell if a block is good or not.

08-13-2002, 10:43 PM	#13
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	Dude.. It's really not THAT hard to come up with a new block design.. Honestly.. the maze3 was nothing.. they just took the spiral idea and put F'in lexan on the top! Seriously dude.. stop defending them.. I am starting to think you work there or something.. They are good people but honestly their blocks aren't the best around.. or anything to be praised like flying monkeys. ARRGHH!! whatever.. you can't win with ignorance... Thanks JayDee.. that is the point I was trying to get across.

08-13-2002, 10:50 PM	#16
decodeddiesel Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: classified Posts: 534	You are all amazingly prooving my point and refuting it at the same time. Honestly I didn't think that would happen, but hey thats what forums are for, no? __________________ ...i hurt... do me a favor, disconect me... they can re-work me but i'll never be top of the line again ...i'd rather be nothing...

08-13-2002, 11:03 PM	#18
Sled_Dog Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Snowyland(not Alaska) Posts: 238	no jaydee I was not talking about you, and yes I know the maze 1 was simple, but my point is they don't just sit and punch random shit into the CNC they do think about where the entrance and exit holes go and where passages go over. Do you think the spiral took very long to design(no offense fixxitt)? And umm am I missing something when punisher said that the Maze 3 was a spiral with a lexan top? weren't the original spirals lexan topped? __________________ pro/chat has a website now? wow

08-13-2002, 11:12 PM	#19
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Keep an eye on ebay; you can occasionally find parts or complete cooling systems for under $100. Most likely better than you can put together yourself, and in a professional enclosure. For those thin plate blocks must have pump with some ooomph; if you recall I was wanting a positive displacement pump a while back?

08-14-2002, 12:07 AM	#21
ItsSoLARGE Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: So Cal Posts: 125	well I clicked thinking i might have seen some boobies.. considering LiquidCool showed us his GFs __________________ Plumber's Goop: The Watercooler's Duct Tape

08-14-2002, 12:18 AM	#22
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	I agree with JayDee all the way. It's like me and JD are the only ones with common sense here I'm not such a newb with water blocks.. I have seen Gemini's blocks in person.. He put serious thermodynamic rules into his block. What DD does is nothing that anyone couldn't do. Infact in about an hour I came up with 2 block designs and drew them out. If I knew ACAD I could of put them in to an ACAD design as well. You people take this water block making thing way to seriously. DD does nothing special to make their blocks.. no rocket science goes into them. I bet that they don't even know much about thermodynamics (as in took classes in college etc). If you are so dumb as to look at the maze3 and not see it's just an ovbious spiral design and not rocket science then just shut up. I don't want to flame or be mean to anyone.. but this post has gone WAY to far. This post contains nothing useful to people. It's all a stupid rant about how some of us worship every move that DD makes and the others that can see the light of day and realize that you don't need 10lb's of copper to make a good block. I am thoroughly disgusted at my Maze2 now. I lift my maze2 up and then I go and check out Gemini's blocks and talk to Pete and he tells me all this crap how his blocks are just as good.. His fricken water blocks are TINY! They weigh nothing.. yet they are just as good as my lofty Maze2! So you tell me.. who had more thought into this whole thing? DD ? Or someone with real knowledge like Pete at Gemini? His block now is just as good if not better then the Maze3.. and the Maze3 is just another hunk of copper.. DD some how gets the idea that using large amounts of copper is better.. and that people will think the same thing.. maybe they think when you get your block and find it's this huge hunk of copper that it will perform better.. I don't know how we got to fighting about this whole PDF crap.. It's pretty simple that water cooling your PC is just a hobby thing.. I mean in theory it's pretty dumb. It doesn't give you any advantage over noise really.. it costs a lot.. it can be a pain to implement and maintain.. Who the hell needs a PDF that says all of this crap.. and gives a blocks specs etc etc? The only reason that Lytron gives specs is because they sell to the INDUSTRY.. not joe shmoe have no F'in clue what the hell is going on.. People would be confused to all hell if they saw a PDF with all of these specs on it for a stupid 40 dollar waterblock. This drives me INSANE!!

08-14-2002, 01:05 AM	#24
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Data I have seen suggests that all labyrinthe type (maze) blocks perform pretty much the same for a given flow rate. Some appear to perform better than others in one's system due to differences in flow restriction. Not some marvel of thermodynamics, it is the fact that there is very little heat spreading from an AMD core coupled by the center inlet where cool water enters. decoded: Swiftech puts considerable R&D into their blocks. If that is a design criteria then consider the MXW462-U. I am guessing Innovatek has some engineers that are on staff or are being consulted. The single feature I would like to see waterblock and radiator manufacturers include is pressure drop vs flow rate. A DPT setup and a flow meter isn't THAT expensive, and it would be very helpful in putting together systems. Similar to the P-Q curves for fans or pumps that are available from the manufacturer typically.

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