Advice on a system...please!

Blackeagle · 11-01-2002, 09:19 PM

I want to build a water cooled rig, a good one. I've learned a good deal from reading past articles and numerous posts. Now I'd like to share with you the ideas I have come up with for my next system. It isn't complete but I'd like your input as to the components I'm looking at so far in the way of case and cooling..

Case Lain Li PC 70 or PC 76. I'm leaning toward the PC 76 as it offers more width and depth than the 70 although it's also just a tad shorter.

Pump a Iwaki MD-30 series but not sure if it should be the MD-30RLT or the MD-30RLZT

MD-30RLT = 510Gph @ 4' w/head of 17.7' and 11.6psi

MD-30RLZT = 275 Gph @ 4' w/head of 36.1' and 24psi

Advice on the above pumps would be great. Not sure if the large drop in volume is worth the extra psi/head as the other pump has better pressure than many other used. And as I said, I have no past experiance to draw from on this.

Rad(s) Here I'm also looking at 2 ways 2 go.

(1) Dual BIE or Deeps with pump riged with a outlet hose of 5/8" leading to a custom made Y that splits flow into two lines 1/2 going into the dual rads. Then 1/2" lines out of the rads rejoined into a 5/8" line leading up to the motherboard. Again a custom Y splitting the flow into 3/8" and 1/2". (if the Deep was the rad of choice then I'm favor just bringing of one line as 3/8" from one of them and avoiding two of those Y's). The 1/2" line goes to the CPU and the 3/8" line to the NB and GFX blocks. Then 3/8" to res before going down to meet the 1/2" at a last custom Y going up to 3/4" before pump. Rather complex sounding and a good deal more tube than in the next option.

(2) Single rad, the Abyss or perhaps the new BIE that is of the same double size. With this arrangement everything would be in series. Pump=Abyss=CPU=NB=GFX=res=pump.

Which ever rad(s) chosen would be mounted on the floor of the case very close to the pump. Res will be the high point of the system ether one of the new models that fit in a 5.25" bay at the top of the case, or a custom built (DIY) mounted between the motherboard and the 5.25" bays but just a bit higher than the CPU where the line enters the res.

Fans will be Y S Teck 130 CFM models drawing cool air through the floor of the case and through the rad. Only the filters will be mounted outside the case in a velcroed mounted peice, for easy of cleaning. Exaust will be through 2 120mm fans in a large top window's blow holes. Will also have a 92mm side blower in a window to cool the rest of the motherboard a bit and just add unheated air. Might also add xtra fans to rad latter if needed or just to push things a bit.

WB's will be CPU = Atlantis or Little River Rapids.
NB = Atlantis or Danger Den designs
GFX = Danger Den 9700 pro model

Power for all this to come from a Vantec 470 power supply and the pump will be on 110 of course.

Well guys please tell me what is right and what is wrong with the above and how to improve it. Worst thing I see already is the above will hit me for 1K+ and still getting started.

Thanks

bigben2k · 11-01-2002, 11:25 PM

Well, that's the problem, it's pricey! If you get your comp to run 10% faster with $1'000 worth of gear, then to get your money back your system would have to cost $10'000...

You've only neglected one thing: a good fan for the rad(s).

If money's no object, then you should be talking about a TEC.

You'll have to spec the rest of the system!

MadDogMe · 11-02-2002, 01:54 AM

I don't agree, it's only the pump that's expensive, (I'm not sure how much the 30series), and Cathars block, It's a one off if you do it right, the rest you have to upgrade continualy always...

Can you say whether the pump is overkill or not?, as opposed to the 20 rt/rzt?...

PS. There's an Atlantis block for the 9700 ATI chipset out now!...

nexxo · 11-02-2002, 04:05 AM

Jeez, talk about overkill.

With regards to the pump IMNERHO I would favour pressure (head) over flow, especially with all these components in the circuit. Flow don't mean anything if it grinds to a halt at the first resistance it meets.

Never make split parallel tubes of uneven lenghts, unless you narrow the diameter of the longer tube correspondingly to even out the flow. This involves calculating the volume of each length of tube, and resistance of components, which is too much like hard work. Only the masters like Bladerunner understand split line setups (thenagain you may be a master, too).

I would go with option 2. Simpler, neater, less prone to leaks and you really won't get any less performance (honest). With watercooling you want to keep the circuit as short and simple as possible, with the least number of components as possible, avoiding 90º bends where you can. In that regard you don't actually need the NB waterblock; the drop in pressure does not justify the cooling. Just slap on a Zalman fanless heatsink.

MadDogMe · 11-02-2002, 05:11 AM

Have you got the stats for the 20RXT?, the 30series is putting out alot of heat at 115watts!...

MadDogMe · 11-02-2002, 05:29 AM

I'd have the parallel Deeps if I had the flow rate/speed.
5/8 or 3/4 tube & fittings also. I'd run it all in series, you loose half the flowrate whenever you go parrallel,. I'm sure the Iwaki could handle a GPU & CPU block in series, even a NB one too. I'd think about having the GPU & NB blocks custom made(in~out, no maze/channel stuff!), with soldered on 1/2~5/8inch internal Copper tube instead of threaded barbs(barbs take up too much room on small blocks. Custom top for the Atlantis as well with 1/2 or 5/8 inner Copper tubes as well(they are very close fitting!!). I think Cathars block will take a 5/8 barb as well,(it has a big threadsize 1/2inch barb on it as standard...

Rotor does one~off custom jobs...

Pressure/head over flow is my take aswell, as long as the flow is respectable, the 20RZT seems OK to me @ 3.5+GPH @ 8FT...
I'm no expert though, I have little or no practical experience

...

I wish you luck on this cause it's very close to what I want to end up with

...

mfpmax · 11-02-2002, 05:40 AM

Actually MadDog, the radiators are also expensive...the BIX/BIE isn't cheap, and the Deeps he'll be ordering overseas.

I personally would just buy a $20-30 heatercore from a local parts store...cover the core fins, and paint the sucker if I wanted it to look pretty.

I also agree with bigben2k, if you wanna "waste" money, go TEC, or even more...go TEC waterchillier.

gmat · 11-02-2002, 09:45 AM

I'm not sure he's "wasting'" money. Building a neat setup is no "waste" indeed. Going Peltier at once would be a mistake. One must build a decent WC setup before considering phase change or TECs...

For the pump the Z is better, watercooling setups are very restrictive. Dual parallel rads sounds better too.
YS Tech fans are noisy as hell - i have 2 of them (currently..) and neighbours are complaining about the noise !

Blackeagle · 11-02-2002, 10:06 PM

I intend to take a good deal of time making my choices of exact components. I DON'T have the money to waste changing components due to haste leading to error/waste. If I need a year to finish this system, then so be it. But I want to get it right.

Gamut's advice not to rush things as far as a TEC goes is very sound advice for me. Just reading up on the problems involved with TEC's is enough to shy me off, I know my limits. I have the tooling and skills to buld items like custom Y's and my own res, do the case cutting and installing windows and such. But I don't want to fry high cost components trying to reach to far for TEC's, and I'm concerned that is just what would happen.

The end goal here is to build a strong water rig that will give good high performance for straight water cooling. It is also going to be a moded case with windows in the top & side and perhaps lower front where the Lain Li have those fan intakes for the front fans.

One point raised by both BigBen and Gamut is the choice of fan I gave. Now I have to admit I don't have any experiance with 120mm fans. I was considering the Y S Teck fans as they had a listed noise level a bit below the Deltas. Your advise on a better choice would be great. I do intend to include a method of fan control in the tower, probablly a reobus.

BigBen,

Not sure intirely what some components of this tower will be. I can use a couple from the system I have. Liteon 32x12x40 CD burner, and perhaps may keep a Zip 250 as well. I know Zip drives are not populer but I have one I'm used to useing and a number of discs as well. That is about it for my using parts from the currant tower, no DVD in it. I'd like a Dig. Doc 5 for temps if I can afford it, but that may have to wait. I want the core of the cooling and the tower to be good stuff first.
As to the motherboard, gfx ect. I figure on waiting until I get the case and other components ready before I get to intent on just what I want in that area, then see what looks like the best way to go. I hope by then the Barton and Hammer will be out as well as the Intell prescott, serial ATA and dual channel RAM or even the DDR II, so much new stuff just around the cornner. I have to admit I havn't really tried to decide those things as it's hard to know for sure just what will be out and what the performaces are going to be like. I do know that if the Hammer and Prescott are real high dollar that I'm going to be looking hard at the Barton. I just don't see much I need 64 bit for and will be a while before much is out that will use it anyway.

Keep the ideas and advice coming on guys, and thanks !

Blackeagle · 11-02-2002, 10:52 PM

MadDogMe,

Here's your stats on the MD-20 series of pumps.

MD-20RLXT = 13.7 Gpm @ 4' and max head of 8.2' & 5.7psi

MD-20RLT = 8.2 Gpm @ 4' and max head of 14.1' & 10psi

MD-20RZT = 2.9 Gpm @ 4' and max head of 22.6 & 14.2psi

Cost of the MD-20 series pumps is around $140.00 USD but the WMD-20 could be had for around $110.00 USD, but the WMD is said to be louder when running adn the MD motor is supposed to last a good deal longer. The 30 series pumps are priced about +30 for WMD and +65 USD for the MD. But you can rebuild these when needed.

One of the most important things I hope to learn through this thread is if the MD-30 is the best choice of pump. If the dual BIE or Deeps or Abyss can handle the extra heat added by that large of a pump then the pressure would be nice to have. I need to figure out which of various components will make the best balanced system. I don't mind spending a few dollars xtra to get it right, but sure don't want to spend money on a overly large pump that not only would cost more but degrade the system performance by adding more heat to the water than the rad(s) can handle. I'm repeating myself, time to get some sleep. But thanks much for understanding what my goal is and trying to help. You first offered the advice to look for and into the Iwaki pumps on a differant thread.

airspirit · 11-02-2002, 11:05 PM

Do you mean GPM, rather than GPH? As for fans, if you're going to be using such high quality equipment, you can get away with near silent ones. Get a couple of Papst or (more likely) Panaflo "L" rated fans and run them at 7V or 5V. Even if you run 3-4 of them you'll barely know they're running.

airspirit · 11-02-2002, 11:17 PM

Oh, and one BIX should be able to very comfortably handle the heat output of your system. A BIX2 would need very little CFM of air over it. Two in parallel might be able to straight radiate without fans if they're in the open. The high end iwakis are great if you're using 3/4" hose for some psycho setup or if you're doing more than one machine, but odds are you're not going to see much better cooling than if you went with a Danner Pondmaster 700 or an Eheim 1250 or something. The reason is that while you're pushing more water through the system, and it can be absorbed more readily by the water because of that, you're also adding a HUGE amount of heat into the water from the pump. When you're talking about 115-140W of heat from the pump, well, that's more than your proc and NB combined are releasing. While getting a better rad or block will help, there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to pumps. We all tout flow rates and head values as some sort of virtual d!ck measuring contest, but unless your system is using an extremely resistive heater core or you are running the NB and GPU and CPU all in series (foolish, if you ask me), you really don't need it.

Run 5/8" out of the pump to a Y. Run the GPU/NB in one parallel loop with 3/8" tubing, and the CPU in another parallel loop with 1/2" tubing. Attach the CPU to one rad and the GPU/NB to another (you were going to use two, right?). Join the loops at a Y right before the pump. It'll work, since the GPU and NB blocks are more restrictive, anyway. It doesn't take mastery of anything to figure it out, just a little bit of common sense. Running them all in series can put the last chip in the series at risk since it'll be being cooled by heated water. Plus, it is a biznatch for flow.

HMB · 11-03-2002, 12:22 AM

I would go with dual heatercores+shrouds from dtekcustoms. An eheim 1060. Cathars block for cpu. Dangerden for northbridge and graphicscard. Fans: thats up to you how loud u want them to be

Anyhow.... I dont see why u would need more than 1 rad.

gmat · 11-03-2002, 04:20 AM

Do not get me wrong, YS Tech fans are fine equipment. They are *very* strong at pulling air. Indeed they are *a bit* more silent than Deltas, but not by much...
All depends on the noise level you're aiming for. If you couldnt care less, take the YS Techs, it's the best bang for the buck when it comes to high flow (in 120mm). Beware as they are *very* powerful they can burn mobo connectors out.. If you take a heatercore -which is bigger than a BiX - you can try and get a 172mm fan, Comair Rotron or Papst come to mind there.
Now if you want quietness, the best are Papst with the NGL, N/2GL then NGML series, closely followed by Panaflo with the L then M series.

PS: my nick is "gmat" like "gee - mat" and not "gamut"

It's my UNIX login.

MadDogMe · 11-03-2002, 07:38 AM

Gamut!, LoL...

Blackeagle what are the watt ratings for the 20 series?,(the MD20RZT looks good to me).

120mm fans are ALL quiete when run at 7V, it's when(& if) you want to put the power up they'll get loud. YSTechs are cheap and powerfull, Papst are the best build and quiet, Panaflo are quiet and well made. look for the highest static pressure rating, prolly wont mean much @ 7V but there you go!

...

The Deeps and Abyss are cheap in the UK especialy compared to BIX's. how much would you have to pay for shipping?, how much tax?, could the tax be avoided if it was sent as 'parcel rather than an 'order'?, I know nothing about shipping :shrug:, but if I can help let me know

...

Certain Cu heaterCores are perfect for 172mm fans, fitting them incase is another matter!, you could always solder 14mm barbs onto a BIX as well...

BillA did an article at overclocker.com on Rad performance, on optimum flowrates for different rads, helpful to work out if single or parallel is feasible. I'm not sure where the point of diminishing returns starts on your average block, you'd need to see a graph of the specific block(s) to be sure. even then you'd need to know what flow is achievable with a given pump for your chosen setup, but the higher the pressure/head the closer the chance of achieving(or getting close to!) the stated max~flow rate...

Blackeagle · 11-03-2002, 08:43 PM

MadDogMe,

.53 amps for Z20 series.

And here is the site where I've been getting stats on the Iwaki's. I should have posted this sooner.

www.iwakiwalchem.com

Blackeagle · 11-03-2002, 09:38 PM

I have to admit I havn't priced shipping yet on the rads from the UK. I'm afraid of what I'll find I guess. I did however check on shipping for the Atlantis CPU blocks, and with shipping it will run me about USD $90.00. About 20% of my cost on the WB will be in shipping it.

Havn't priced the shipping on Cathar's block yet either.

I'll let you know what I find out. And thanks much for the offer of help, but I'm no expert on the in's and out's of shipping myself & I think I'm going go have to pay the piper if I go for the Abyss or Deep.

Gamat, got it

Sorry about that. And thanks to you also. You guys here that know what you are doing must get a bit tired of noobs like me at times. Want you to know I really do value all your advice.

bigdawginva · 11-03-2002, 10:55 PM

I too am in the process of having a dual-rad, parallel system built so I'll add fodder for additional "that won't work" feedback.

Two Scoops and XLR 120s Rads from http://thescoopstore.tripod.com/olshoppingpage.htm

Pump is still being researched but leaning towards Eheim 1250. I am very particular about this component because, although it has to flow enough for the setup, I'm looking for the quietest one that does the job.

LRR or Spir@l WB (Waiting on additional reviews of the LRR).

Bay-Res reservoir

One Scoop/Rad will be mounted horizontally inside top rear and the other vertically lower front of a $59 black MAXTOP CSF-910 file server case.

Case and rad fans will be controlled by a digital 8 fan controller with LCD display & dual thermal probes from epowerhousepc for times when I doubt I'll need the fans running. Of course, it will also have the obligatory window(s).

These components are the basis for my first custom-built WC venture. Approximate cost is $450 without shipping.

MadDogMe · 11-04-2002, 02:05 AM

The problem with having two fans together is you get harmonic feedback, a horible whine that pulses depending on fan speeds. I tried putting a divider in the shroud to separate the flows, but they still whine, lowering voltage is the only cure...

gmat · 11-04-2002, 03:10 AM

Theres a chip from Maxim that can handle multiple fans and run em together, using their Hall effect probe. Maxim docs say it effectively kills the "pulsing noise" by running em perfectly in sync. I have not the URL at hand (i'm at work - and boss is lurking around) but i'm sure that with a bit of search you can find it.

MadDogMe · 11-04-2002, 03:14 AM

Does'nt that allow them to run slower as well?(the Hall thingy?), gives them a lower stalling speed?. I read somewhere that it did, feeding the current in pulses or something?, whatever!

, Hall was mentioned...

Blackeagle · 11-04-2002, 10:00 PM

Some interesting points/posts were raised aoubt the pump I'm looking at on the pump reound up thread. Also issues about routing the cooling loops to the differant W/Bs I have in mind.

Hope you fellas would will be interested in the differant ideas regarding the issue of added pump heat with a large pump and how to get the best results.

gmat · 11-05-2002, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadDogMe
Does'nt that allow them to run slower as well?(the Hall thingy?), gives them a lower stalling speed?. I read somewhere that it did, feeding the current in pulses or something?, whatever!, Hall was mentioned...

Not at all

It's the standard probe you have on 99% of fans - it's the little device that detects fan rotation. When the fan is spinning, it emits a pulse wave (maybe thats what you heard), each pulse is in sync with 1 blade (more precisely, rotor coil) passing by the probe. i.e. 1 pulse=1 spin...
You can hook the wire to Maxim chip, put the fan alim on the chip as well, and the chip will control the fan speed with great precision (yes you can slow it down...) - the chip i was referencing to is a multiple-fan control. Found it while browsing Maxim's catalog.

Blackeagle · 11-05-2002, 08:51 PM

One thing I find flustrating with trying to compare differant components of this water cooling stuff is that there are NO standards for how everyone advertises equipment.

I've taken the advice of several of you guys to look into heater cores. Found several at D-Tek and Overclockers Hideout. But how to compare the performance between these heater core types of rads and the BIX and Deep/Abyss/double BIX rads. The heater cores could save me some serious money if they also perform well.

Can anyone advise me based on personel experiance? Or can you compare them accuratly based on core size alone?

Thanks

gmat · 11-06-2002, 02:32 AM

Between 2 rads of the same kind (ie both heatercores for example) you can compare em quite easily with size. Frontal surface size is a direct factor of heat power, and thickness is a factor of about 1/2x.
Try and look for Bill Adams articles on overclockers.com (he posts on these forums as well, under the nick 'unregistered') he's done pretty charts involving a lot of different rads.
What comes out is generally speaking, heatercores are more efficient.

11-01-2002, 09:19 PM	#1
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	Advice on a system...please! I want to build a water cooled rig, a good one. I've learned a good deal from reading past articles and numerous posts. Now I'd like to share with you the ideas I have come up with for my next system. It isn't complete but I'd like your input as to the components I'm looking at so far in the way of case and cooling.. Case Lain Li PC 70 or PC 76. I'm leaning toward the PC 76 as it offers more width and depth than the 70 although it's also just a tad shorter. Pump a Iwaki MD-30 series but not sure if it should be the MD-30RLT or the MD-30RLZT MD-30RLT = 510Gph @ 4' w/head of 17.7' and 11.6psi MD-30RLZT = 275 Gph @ 4' w/head of 36.1' and 24psi Advice on the above pumps would be great. Not sure if the large drop in volume is worth the extra psi/head as the other pump has better pressure than many other used. And as I said, I have no past experiance to draw from on this. Rad(s) Here I'm also looking at 2 ways 2 go. (1) Dual BIE or Deeps with pump riged with a outlet hose of 5/8" leading to a custom made Y that splits flow into two lines 1/2 going into the dual rads. Then 1/2" lines out of the rads rejoined into a 5/8" line leading up to the motherboard. Again a custom Y splitting the flow into 3/8" and 1/2". (if the Deep was the rad of choice then I'm favor just bringing of one line as 3/8" from one of them and avoiding two of those Y's). The 1/2" line goes to the CPU and the 3/8" line to the NB and GFX blocks. Then 3/8" to res before going down to meet the 1/2" at a last custom Y going up to 3/4" before pump. Rather complex sounding and a good deal more tube than in the next option. (2) Single rad, the Abyss or perhaps the new BIE that is of the same double size. With this arrangement everything would be in series. Pump=Abyss=CPU=NB=GFX=res=pump. Which ever rad(s) chosen would be mounted on the floor of the case very close to the pump. Res will be the high point of the system ether one of the new models that fit in a 5.25" bay at the top of the case, or a custom built (DIY) mounted between the motherboard and the 5.25" bays but just a bit higher than the CPU where the line enters the res. Fans will be Y S Teck 130 CFM models drawing cool air through the floor of the case and through the rad. Only the filters will be mounted outside the case in a velcroed mounted peice, for easy of cleaning. Exaust will be through 2 120mm fans in a large top window's blow holes. Will also have a 92mm side blower in a window to cool the rest of the motherboard a bit and just add unheated air. Might also add xtra fans to rad latter if needed or just to push things a bit. WB's will be CPU = Atlantis or Little River Rapids. NB = Atlantis or Danger Den designs GFX = Danger Den 9700 pro model Power for all this to come from a Vantec 470 power supply and the pump will be on 110 of course. Well guys please tell me what is right and what is wrong with the above and how to improve it. Worst thing I see already is the above will hit me for 1K+ and still getting started. Thanks

11-01-2002, 11:25 PM	#2
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Well, that's the problem, it's pricey! If you get your comp to run 10% faster with $1'000 worth of gear, then to get your money back your system would have to cost $10'000... You've only neglected one thing: a good fan for the rad(s). If money's no object, then you should be talking about a TEC. You'll have to spec the rest of the system! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

11-02-2002, 04:05 AM	#4
nexxo Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brimingham, UK Posts: 385	Jeez, talk about overkill. With regards to the pump IMNERHO I would favour pressure (head) over flow, especially with all these components in the circuit. Flow don't mean anything if it grinds to a halt at the first resistance it meets. Never make split parallel tubes of uneven lenghts, unless you narrow the diameter of the longer tube correspondingly to even out the flow. This involves calculating the volume of each length of tube, and resistance of components, which is too much like hard work. Only the masters like Bladerunner understand split line setups (thenagain you may be a master, too). I would go with option 2. Simpler, neater, less prone to leaks and you really won't get any less performance (honest). With watercooling you want to keep the circuit as short and simple as possible, with the least number of components as possible, avoiding 90º bends where you can. In that regard you don't actually need the NB waterblock; the drop in pressure does not justify the cooling. Just slap on a Zalman fanless heatsink. __________________ "There is a thin line between magic and madness"

11-02-2002, 05:40 AM	#7
mfpmax Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rockledge,FL,US Posts: 731	Actually MadDog, the radiators are also expensive...the BIX/BIE isn't cheap, and the Deeps he'll be ordering overseas. I personally would just buy a $20-30 heatercore from a local parts store...cover the core fins, and paint the sucker if I wanted it to look pretty. I also agree with bigben2k, if you wanna "waste" money, go TEC, or even more...go TEC waterchillier. __________________ My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz

11-02-2002, 10:06 PM	#9
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	I intend to take a good deal of time making my choices of exact components. I DON'T have the money to waste changing components due to haste leading to error/waste. If I need a year to finish this system, then so be it. But I want to get it right. Gamut's advice not to rush things as far as a TEC goes is very sound advice for me. Just reading up on the problems involved with TEC's is enough to shy me off, I know my limits. I have the tooling and skills to buld items like custom Y's and my own res, do the case cutting and installing windows and such. But I don't want to fry high cost components trying to reach to far for TEC's, and I'm concerned that is just what would happen. The end goal here is to build a strong water rig that will give good high performance for straight water cooling. It is also going to be a moded case with windows in the top & side and perhaps lower front where the Lain Li have those fan intakes for the front fans. One point raised by both BigBen and Gamut is the choice of fan I gave. Now I have to admit I don't have any experiance with 120mm fans. I was considering the Y S Teck fans as they had a listed noise level a bit below the Deltas. Your advise on a better choice would be great. I do intend to include a method of fan control in the tower, probablly a reobus. BigBen, Not sure intirely what some components of this tower will be. I can use a couple from the system I have. Liteon 32x12x40 CD burner, and perhaps may keep a Zip 250 as well. I know Zip drives are not populer but I have one I'm used to useing and a number of discs as well. That is about it for my using parts from the currant tower, no DVD in it. I'd like a Dig. Doc 5 for temps if I can afford it, but that may have to wait. I want the core of the cooling and the tower to be good stuff first. As to the motherboard, gfx ect. I figure on waiting until I get the case and other components ready before I get to intent on just what I want in that area, then see what looks like the best way to go. I hope by then the Barton and Hammer will be out as well as the Intell prescott, serial ATA and dual channel RAM or even the DDR II, so much new stuff just around the cornner. I have to admit I havn't really tried to decide those things as it's hard to know for sure just what will be out and what the performaces are going to be like. I do know that if the Hammer and Prescott are real high dollar that I'm going to be looking hard at the Barton. I just don't see much I need 64 bit for and will be a while before much is out that will use it anyway. Keep the ideas and advice coming on guys, and thanks ! Last edited by Blackeagle; 11-02-2002 at 10:20 PM.

11-02-2002, 01:54 AM	#3
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	I don't agree, it's only the pump that's expensive, (I'm not sure how much the 30series), and Cathars block, It's a one off if you do it right, the rest you have to upgrade continualy always... Can you say whether the pump is overkill or not?, as opposed to the 20 rt/rzt?... PS. There's an Atlantis block for the 9700 ATI chipset out now!...

11-02-2002, 05:11 AM	#5
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Have you got the stats for the 20RXT?, the 30series is putting out alot of heat at 115watts!...

11-02-2002, 05:29 AM	#6
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	I'd have the parallel Deeps if I had the flow rate/speed. 5/8 or 3/4 tube & fittings also. I'd run it all in series, you loose half the flowrate whenever you go parrallel,. I'm sure the Iwaki could handle a GPU & CPU block in series, even a NB one too. I'd think about having the GPU & NB blocks custom made(in~out, no maze/channel stuff!), with soldered on 1/2~5/8inch internal Copper tube instead of threaded barbs(barbs take up too much room on small blocks. Custom top for the Atlantis as well with 1/2 or 5/8 inner Copper tubes as well(they are very close fitting!!). I think Cathars block will take a 5/8 barb as well,(it has a big threadsize 1/2inch barb on it as standard... Rotor does one~off custom jobs... Pressure/head over flow is my take aswell, as long as the flow is respectable, the 20RZT seems OK to me @ 3.5+GPH @ 8FT... I'm no expert though, I have little or no practical experience ... I wish you luck on this cause it's very close to what I want to end up with ...

11-02-2002, 09:45 AM	#8
gmat Thermophile Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,221	I'm not sure he's "wasting'" money. Building a neat setup is no "waste" indeed. Going Peltier at once would be a mistake. One must build a decent WC setup before considering phase change or TECs... For the pump the Z is better, watercooling setups are very restrictive. Dual parallel rads sounds better too. YS Tech fans are noisy as hell - i have 2 of them (currently..) and neighbours are complaining about the noise !

11-02-2002, 10:52 PM	#10
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	MadDogMe, Here's your stats on the MD-20 series of pumps. MD-20RLXT = 13.7 Gpm @ 4' and max head of 8.2' & 5.7psi MD-20RLT = 8.2 Gpm @ 4' and max head of 14.1' & 10psi MD-20RZT = 2.9 Gpm @ 4' and max head of 22.6 & 14.2psi Cost of the MD-20 series pumps is around $140.00 USD but the WMD-20 could be had for around $110.00 USD, but the WMD is said to be louder when running adn the MD motor is supposed to last a good deal longer. The 30 series pumps are priced about +30 for WMD and +65 USD for the MD. But you can rebuild these when needed. One of the most important things I hope to learn through this thread is if the MD-30 is the best choice of pump. If the dual BIE or Deeps or Abyss can handle the extra heat added by that large of a pump then the pressure would be nice to have. I need to figure out which of various components will make the best balanced system. I don't mind spending a few dollars xtra to get it right, but sure don't want to spend money on a overly large pump that not only would cost more but degrade the system performance by adding more heat to the water than the rad(s) can handle. I'm repeating myself, time to get some sleep. But thanks much for understanding what my goal is and trying to help. You first offered the advice to look for and into the Iwaki pumps on a differant thread. Last edited by Blackeagle; 11-03-2002 at 08:15 PM.

11-02-2002, 11:05 PM	#11
airspirit Been /.'d... have you? Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,986	Do you mean GPM, rather than GPH? As for fans, if you're going to be using such high quality equipment, you can get away with near silent ones. Get a couple of Papst or (more likely) Panaflo "L" rated fans and run them at 7V or 5V. Even if you run 3-4 of them you'll barely know they're running. __________________ #!/bin/sh {who;} {last;} {pause;} {grep;} {touch;} {unzip;} mount /dev/girl -t {wet;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} echo yes yes yes {yes;} umount {/dev/girl;zip;} rm -rf {wet.spot;} {sleep;} finger: permission denied

11-02-2002, 11:17 PM	#12
airspirit Been /.'d... have you? Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,986	Oh, and one BIX should be able to very comfortably handle the heat output of your system. A BIX2 would need very little CFM of air over it. Two in parallel might be able to straight radiate without fans if they're in the open. The high end iwakis are great if you're using 3/4" hose for some psycho setup or if you're doing more than one machine, but odds are you're not going to see much better cooling than if you went with a Danner Pondmaster 700 or an Eheim 1250 or something. The reason is that while you're pushing more water through the system, and it can be absorbed more readily by the water because of that, you're also adding a HUGE amount of heat into the water from the pump. When you're talking about 115-140W of heat from the pump, well, that's more than your proc and NB combined are releasing. While getting a better rad or block will help, there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to pumps. We all tout flow rates and head values as some sort of virtual d!ck measuring contest, but unless your system is using an extremely resistive heater core or you are running the NB and GPU and CPU all in series (foolish, if you ask me), you really don't need it. Run 5/8" out of the pump to a Y. Run the GPU/NB in one parallel loop with 3/8" tubing, and the CPU in another parallel loop with 1/2" tubing. Attach the CPU to one rad and the GPU/NB to another (you were going to use two, right?). Join the loops at a Y right before the pump. It'll work, since the GPU and NB blocks are more restrictive, anyway. It doesn't take mastery of anything to figure it out, just a little bit of common sense. Running them all in series can put the last chip in the series at risk since it'll be being cooled by heated water. Plus, it is a biznatch for flow. __________________ #!/bin/sh {who;} {last;} {pause;} {grep;} {touch;} {unzip;} mount /dev/girl -t {wet;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} echo yes yes yes {yes;} umount {/dev/girl;zip;} rm -rf {wet.spot;} {sleep;} finger: permission denied

11-03-2002, 12:22 AM	#13
HMB Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 63	I would go with dual heatercores+shrouds from dtekcustoms. An eheim 1060. Cathars block for cpu. Dangerden for northbridge and graphicscard. Fans: thats up to you how loud u want them to be Anyhow.... I dont see why u would need more than 1 rad. __________________ Asus A7N8X Deluxe, 2500+@2700MHz (13,5x200), 2x256MB TwinMOS pc3200 @ 2-2-2-11, GFFX 5900 Ultra@500/950MHz, 2x120GB Maxtor Diamondmax 9 8MB SATA raid-0, Prometeia, Logitech z-680. 20000+ 3Dmark2001 Duron 600@1521MHz RIP

11-03-2002, 04:20 AM	#14
gmat Thermophile Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,221	Do not get me wrong, YS Tech fans are fine equipment. They are very strong at pulling air. Indeed they are a bit more silent than Deltas, but not by much... All depends on the noise level you're aiming for. If you couldnt care less, take the YS Techs, it's the best bang for the buck when it comes to high flow (in 120mm). Beware as they are very powerful they can burn mobo connectors out.. If you take a heatercore -which is bigger than a BiX - you can try and get a 172mm fan, Comair Rotron or Papst come to mind there. Now if you want quietness, the best are Papst with the NGL, N/2GL then NGML series, closely followed by Panaflo with the L then M series. PS: my nick is "gmat" like "gee - mat" and not "gamut" It's my UNIX login.

11-03-2002, 07:38 AM	#15
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Gamut!, LoL... Blackeagle what are the watt ratings for the 20 series?,(the MD20RZT looks good to me). 120mm fans are ALL quiete when run at 7V, it's when(& if) you want to put the power up they'll get loud. YSTechs are cheap and powerfull, Papst are the best build and quiet, Panaflo are quiet and well made. look for the highest static pressure rating, prolly wont mean much @ 7V but there you go! ... The Deeps and Abyss are cheap in the UK especialy compared to BIX's. how much would you have to pay for shipping?, how much tax?, could the tax be avoided if it was sent as 'parcel rather than an 'order'?, I know nothing about shipping :shrug:, but if I can help let me know ... Certain Cu heaterCores are perfect for 172mm fans, fitting them incase is another matter!, you could always solder 14mm barbs onto a BIX as well... BillA did an article at overclocker.com on Rad performance, on optimum flowrates for different rads, helpful to work out if single or parallel is feasible. I'm not sure where the point of diminishing returns starts on your average block, you'd need to see a graph of the specific block(s) to be sure. even then you'd need to know what flow is achievable with a given pump for your chosen setup, but the higher the pressure/head the closer the chance of achieving(or getting close to!) the stated max~flow rate...

11-03-2002, 08:43 PM	#16
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	MadDogMe, .53 amps for Z20 series. And here is the site where I've been getting stats on the Iwaki's. I should have posted this sooner. www.iwakiwalchem.com Last edited by Blackeagle; 11-03-2002 at 08:55 PM.

11-03-2002, 09:38 PM	#17
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	I have to admit I havn't priced shipping yet on the rads from the UK. I'm afraid of what I'll find I guess. I did however check on shipping for the Atlantis CPU blocks, and with shipping it will run me about USD $90.00. About 20% of my cost on the WB will be in shipping it. Havn't priced the shipping on Cathar's block yet either. I'll let you know what I find out. And thanks much for the offer of help, but I'm no expert on the in's and out's of shipping myself & I think I'm going go have to pay the piper if I go for the Abyss or Deep. Gamat, got it Sorry about that. And thanks to you also. You guys here that know what you are doing must get a bit tired of noobs like me at times. Want you to know I really do value all your advice.

11-03-2002, 10:55 PM	#18
bigdawginva Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: VA Posts: 104	I too am in the process of having a dual-rad, parallel system built so I'll add fodder for additional "that won't work" feedback. Two Scoops and XLR 120s Rads from http://thescoopstore.tripod.com/olshoppingpage.htm Pump is still being researched but leaning towards Eheim 1250. I am very particular about this component because, although it has to flow enough for the setup, I'm looking for the quietest one that does the job. LRR or Spir@l WB (Waiting on additional reviews of the LRR). Bay-Res reservoir One Scoop/Rad will be mounted horizontally inside top rear and the other vertically lower front of a $59 black MAXTOP CSF-910 file server case. Case and rad fans will be controlled by a digital 8 fan controller with LCD display & dual thermal probes from epowerhousepc for times when I doubt I'll need the fans running. Of course, it will also have the obligatory window(s). These components are the basis for my first custom-built WC venture. Approximate cost is $450 without shipping. Last edited by bigdawginva; 11-03-2002 at 11:08 PM.

11-04-2002, 02:05 AM	#19
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	The problem with having two fans together is you get harmonic feedback, a horible whine that pulses depending on fan speeds. I tried putting a divider in the shroud to separate the flows, but they still whine, lowering voltage is the only cure...

11-04-2002, 03:10 AM	#20
gmat Thermophile Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,221	Theres a chip from Maxim that can handle multiple fans and run em together, using their Hall effect probe. Maxim docs say it effectively kills the "pulsing noise" by running em perfectly in sync. I have not the URL at hand (i'm at work - and boss is lurking around) but i'm sure that with a bit of search you can find it.

11-04-2002, 03:14 AM	#21
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Does'nt that allow them to run slower as well?(the Hall thingy?), gives them a lower stalling speed?. I read somewhere that it did, feeding the current in pulses or something?, whatever!, Hall was mentioned...

11-04-2002, 10:00 PM	#22
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	Some interesting points/posts were raised aoubt the pump I'm looking at on the pump reound up thread. Also issues about routing the cooling loops to the differant W/Bs I have in mind. Hope you fellas would will be interested in the differant ideas regarding the issue of added pump heat with a large pump and how to get the best results.

11-05-2002, 08:51 PM	#24
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	One thing I find flustrating with trying to compare differant components of this water cooling stuff is that there are NO standards for how everyone advertises equipment. I've taken the advice of several of you guys to look into heater cores. Found several at D-Tek and Overclockers Hideout. But how to compare the performance between these heater core types of rads and the BIX and Deep/Abyss/double BIX rads. The heater cores could save me some serious money if they also perform well. Can anyone advise me based on personel experiance? Or can you compare them accuratly based on core size alone? Thanks

11-06-2002, 02:32 AM	#25
gmat Thermophile Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,221	Between 2 rads of the same kind (ie both heatercores for example) you can compare em quite easily with size. Frontal surface size is a direct factor of heat power, and thickness is a factor of about 1/2x. Try and look for Bill Adams articles on overclockers.com (he posts on these forums as well, under the nick 'unregistered') he's done pretty charts involving a lot of different rads. What comes out is generally speaking, heatercores are more efficient.

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