Double looped Bong?

UnloadeD · 12-09-2002, 10:05 AM

I've been thinking of making a bong system something like this:

The two main things I dislike about bongs are 1) water exposed to air going through my system. 2) if water dries up=fried cpu. So I thought a setup like this would adress both problems. I'm wondering if the air/water on the rad would benefit cooling much. Has anybody tried this? Or have any opinions? I did a bit of searching but haven't seen anything setup like this.

peace.
unloaded

I posted this on OC board but didn't get much response, what do you guys think?

golovko · 12-09-2002, 10:25 AM

Thats an interesting design. My first setup utilized a bong instead of a heatercore, and I've actually thought about switching back to the bong (destroyed my heatercore and bongs cool better than heatercores do from my experience). The thing I like about your setup is that the cooling water isn't actually exposed to the surroundings, so dust and other crap wont get into the loop, and as far as the water cooling the rad goes, we all know that water is a better medium for transporting heat than air, so i would think that would work better than the typical bong design.

bigben2k · 12-09-2002, 10:29 AM

I really don't understand the fuss about the water level. Just tap into the house's piping, and run a small 1/4 line to a float valve. Common parts at any hardware store.

As for your setup, it's a dual loop (duh!). I assume that you would set the radiator at the lowest point possible, while allowing the air to vent through it. The question is: is it worth it?

The water would fall through the rad, and assuming that it doesn't restrict the airflow, it would drip down to the bottom (hot) where it would be pumped back up, to the shower head, then drip down (and cool) itself from the airflow.

But some of the airflow will include heat from the rad.

All in all, I believe that it would not be much of an improvement over a straight rad-and-fan combo, or a straight bong. If anything, you might try seperating the rad, and letting the flow go through the bong (an arrangement in series).

Since the bong requires a lot of pressure, it would have to have its own pump, but you were ready for that (right?).

waterrat · 12-09-2002, 10:48 AM

I have been thinking of spliting the tank, with the pump 0n one side and the shower head dripping on the other side. the float valve would be on the pump side

Arcturius · 12-09-2002, 12:01 PM

Actually, if you simply moved the radiator below the cold air intake for the bong, I think you'll be set: The hot air will be more or less limited to live between the rad and the bong's water level, and the bong's air intake will stay cold and simply interact with the bong water. This will also mean you get better airflow, since the air does not need to force it's way through the rad, and the rad will get a better interface with the water b/c the air won't be trying to push it the wrong direction.

Code:



.:H:.   Water hose and steam :)
+-M-+   Showerhead
|:.:| ___   Fan blowing in
|.:.|/ /
|:.: /
|.:.|
[===]===    HeaterCore
|~~~|   Water (duh)
+---+

bigben2k · 12-09-2002, 12:18 PM

And that's fine, but it boils down to a straight bong cooler, except that the coolant is isolated, and that it has to go through another interface (the rad), which all in all, will reduce the efficiency of the cooling system.

On the other hand, it'd have to be quite a large bong, if one is going to fit a heatercore in it, so maybe it's not so bad after all!

The heatercore could act as a nice sound damper for the waterfall.

Other than that, there's still the issue with all bongs: what do you do with the escaping humid air?

nicozeg · 12-09-2002, 01:40 PM

I have a similar idea, with the variation that I don’t like to wet the radiator, as water between fins would obstruct airflow. My idea is to put the rad on the air exhaust of the bong, as this air is cooler than ambient, and you’re not heating bong’s water.

bigben2k · 12-09-2002, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nicozeg
...as this air is cooler than ambient...

How do you figure that?

ambient · 12-09-2002, 02:33 PM

wouldn't the radiator get corroded pretty quick?

airspirit · 12-09-2002, 02:48 PM

You're better off snaking a soft copper tubing coil in the water at the bottom. That'll do better than the heatercore, IMHO. It would be cheaper, too.

The heatercore would corrode like a mofo if left exposed to water and air. By submerging the copper completely in water that never hits anything but plastic or neutral metal parts, the copper tubing should barely corrode, IF IT IS NOT EXPOSED TO AIR.

As for the humidity problem, get a nice pump for your computer and put the bong outside your house. It doesn't matter if junk gets into it, since it should be easy to hose out every now and then (or set up a chimney cover on top of it to prevent leaves and shit from getting in).

If I ever decide to use a bong, that is how I'd do it, just for reliability's sake.

Puzzdre · 12-09-2002, 02:49 PM

nicozeg: air on the exhaust of the bong is warm and damp. It's the water you're cooling with air...The water gets colder, and air warmer...

UnloadeD · 12-09-2002, 05:31 PM

Wow, lottsa comments 8) A few comments. I was planning on needing two pumps so thats not an issue. Also having the core mounted above the fan is a major part of the plan. If the bong half is off or dry, the closed wb loop will still work as the bong acts like a big shroud. Also the core acts as the extra medium other people use in their bongs to increase surface area for the water. I've seen anything from ping pong balls to scotch brite pads used, all to cause more evaporation. I figure with the added surface of the core plus the bit of heat there, thats where most of the evaporating will take place. As I understand it, that where the real cooling takes place, a the water evaporates, not as the drops hit cool moving air. Humidity shouldn't be a real problem for now, as its winter here and gas furnace really dries the air out. It's about time to setup my humidifier anyway. My biggest concern would be buildup on the core. I was thinking of using distilled water and the additives that would go in my humidifier--bactrostat and buildup preventer. Well this started as just a theory, but I think I'm really gonna haveta try it now. I've got tons of plexi, a new table saw, lottsa clamps and glues, so I might as well. The toughest part looks to be getting a good seal around the core and it still being removeable.

peace.
unloaded

nicozeg · 12-09-2002, 06:44 PM

Quote:

How do you figure that?

Quote:

nicozeg: air on the exhaust of the bong is warm and damp. It's the water you're cooling with air...The water gets colder, and air warmer...

Well, the main cooling factor in a bong is the evaporation, where energy (heat) is absorbed by this phase change operation. If it were only convection, heat will be transferred from on medium to the other, but in this case is a mix of both.

Also, this bong loop don’t have a heat source; only the pump, that don’t need to be a powerful one. So the bong would be acting like a swamp cooler, blowing cool air.

bigben2k · 12-09-2002, 06:53 PM

Sorry Nico, but you're making less sense than ever!

Heat comes into the bong assembly from the rad, and exits as hot air.

UnloadeD · 12-09-2002, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
Sorry Nico, but you're making less sense than ever!

Heat comes into the bong assembly from the rad, and exits as hot air.

hehe, i think he's talking about the bong water not directly going to a wb.

so you guys think this setup would get ambient or lower temps? or do you think it wouldn't have results worth the effort?

waterrat · 12-09-2002, 07:21 PM

if you want result dunk the rad in the water

waterrat · 12-09-2002, 07:24 PM

what are you afraid of,the rad will not melt and you will have less problem with calcium deposit on the fin

bigben2k · 12-09-2002, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnloadeD
so you guys think this setup would get ambient or lower temps? or do you think it wouldn't have results worth the effort?

I think that the whole bong thing is dying because the heatloads today are too high.

You should try to gather data on other bongs (and filter out the garbage from those people that measured temps after letting it run for 1 minute). Get the heatload, and CPU temps.

Start surfing!

jtroutma · 12-09-2002, 08:20 PM

Why dont you build a twister and then put the radiator just below it. That way you have high velocity water forced throught the raditator and you still have something cool to look at.

nicozeg · 12-09-2002, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
Sorry Nico, but you're making less sense than ever!

Heat comes into the bong assembly from the rad, and exits as hot air.

I think you don’t get my idea

Let’s try to agree in something:

Imagine a bong running without a computer, with water running and air blowing. What do you think would happen?
a) Nothing, water and air stay at ambient temp
b) Water and air become colder
c) Water and air start to heat up
d) None of the above, the dog drinks the water and the pump fuses.

I say it’s b)

Now let’s see a common heatercore setup. Water temp usually stabilizes some degrees over ambient air, depending of the system performance.

And what happens if you mix both situations, and feed the rad with cooler than ambient air from the bong?

I think that’s a way of improving overall system performance, and I don’t care if air at the end is hot; I like heat being there and not on my cpu!

UnloadeD · 12-09-2002, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by waterrat
if you want result dunk the rad in the water

I'm thinking it would get better cooling with the evaporation happening on the core and the airflowing thru it. It might work ok submerged, but then I'd haveta rig some way to get the water flowing thru the rad where the air usually flows. This would make the complexity and the size go up considerably.

peace.
unloaded

bigben2k · 12-09-2002, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nicozeg
Imagine a bong running without a computer, with water running and air blowing. What do you think would happen?
a) Nothing, water and air stay at ambient temp
b) Water and air become colder
c) Water and air start to heat up
d) None of the above, the dog drinks the water and the pump fuses.

I say it’s b)

I say it's e) none of the above.

if the water gets colder (as it should, unless the pump add a lot of heat), then the heat has to go somewhere. Do we agree there?

Where do you think the heat goes?

nicozeg · 12-09-2002, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
I say it's e) none of the above.

if the water gets colder (as it should, unless the pump add a lot of heat), then the heat has to go somewhere. Do we agree there?

Where do you think the heat goes?

But if you say that water is colder, and there are no more heat sources, that cold water should cool the air al least, how is going to be hot? The fan motor?

waterrat · 12-10-2002, 05:21 AM

nico, dont forget the fan is introducing warm ambiant air,your rad bring in even warmer air you loose that residual cooler air coming of the surface of the water

Volenti · 12-10-2002, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
I think that the whole bong thing is dying because the heatloads today are too high.

You should try to gather data on other bongs (and filter out the garbage from those people that measured temps after letting it run for 1 minute). Get the heatload, and CPU temps.

Start surfing!

Heat loads have nothing to do with it, a good bong will always out-perform even the best/biggest radiator, since a rad can only ever just approach ambient, and a bong can get X below ambient (depending on humidity ect)

This exprimental bong;

is running around 2-3 degrees below ambient while cooling a p41.8@2.6 1.8v, northbridge, radeon 9700pro core at 390mhz, and with a 70w pump in the res.

I'd say it's the high matainance of bongs that put many people off.

12-09-2002, 10:05 AM	#1
UnloadeD Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: MidWest USA Posts: 176	Double looped Bong? I've been thinking of making a bong system something like this: The two main things I dislike about bongs are 1) water exposed to air going through my system. 2) if water dries up=fried cpu. So I thought a setup like this would adress both problems. I'm wondering if the air/water on the rad would benefit cooling much. Has anybody tried this? Or have any opinions? I did a bit of searching but haven't seen anything setup like this. peace. unloaded I posted this on OC board but didn't get much response, what do you guys think?

12-09-2002, 10:29 AM	#3
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I really don't understand the fuss about the water level. Just tap into the house's piping, and run a small 1/4 line to a float valve. Common parts at any hardware store. As for your setup, it's a dual loop (duh!). I assume that you would set the radiator at the lowest point possible, while allowing the air to vent through it. The question is: is it worth it? The water would fall through the rad, and assuming that it doesn't restrict the airflow, it would drip down to the bottom (hot) where it would be pumped back up, to the shower head, then drip down (and cool) itself from the airflow. But some of the airflow will include heat from the rad. All in all, I believe that it would not be much of an improvement over a straight rad-and-fan combo, or a straight bong. If anything, you might try seperating the rad, and letting the flow go through the bong (an arrangement in series). Since the bong requires a lot of pressure, it would have to have its own pump, but you were ready for that (right?). __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

12-09-2002, 10:48 AM	#4
waterrat Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: miami Posts: 35	I have been thinking of spliting the tank, with the pump 0n one side and the shower head dripping on the other side. the float valve would be on the pump side __________________ 8rda3+,xp1600@1.8gig, OCZ EL 256meg x 2, TI4200, MAZE 3,RIO 1700, BIX size used heater core.

12-09-2002, 12:01 PM	#5
Arcturius Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin Posts: 294	Actually, if you simply moved the radiator below the cold air intake for the bong, I think you'll be set: The hot air will be more or less limited to live between the rad and the bong's water level, and the bong's air intake will stay cold and simply interact with the bong water. This will also mean you get better airflow, since the air does not need to force it's way through the rad, and the rad will get a better interface with the water b/c the air won't be trying to push it the wrong direction. Code: .:H:. Water hose and steam :) +-M-+ Showerhead \|:.:\| ___ Fan blowing in \|.:.\|/ / \|:.: / \|.:.\| [===]=== HeaterCore \|~~~\| Water (duh) +---+

12-09-2002, 12:18 PM	#6
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	And that's fine, but it boils down to a straight bong cooler, except that the coolant is isolated, and that it has to go through another interface (the rad), which all in all, will reduce the efficiency of the cooling system. On the other hand, it'd have to be quite a large bong, if one is going to fit a heatercore in it, so maybe it's not so bad after all! The heatercore could act as a nice sound damper for the waterfall. Other than that, there's still the issue with all bongs: what do you do with the escaping humid air? __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

12-09-2002, 10:25 AM	#2
golovko Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Purdue University, USA Posts: 141	Thats an interesting design. My first setup utilized a bong instead of a heatercore, and I've actually thought about switching back to the bong (destroyed my heatercore and bongs cool better than heatercores do from my experience). The thing I like about your setup is that the cooling water isn't actually exposed to the surroundings, so dust and other crap wont get into the loop, and as far as the water cooling the rad goes, we all know that water is a better medium for transporting heat than air, so i would think that would work better than the typical bong design.

12-09-2002, 01:40 PM	#7
nicozeg Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 403	I have a similar idea, with the variation that I don’t like to wet the radiator, as water between fins would obstruct airflow. My idea is to put the rad on the air exhaust of the bong, as this air is cooler than ambient, and you’re not heating bong’s water.

12-09-2002, 02:33 PM	#9
ambient Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 312	wouldn't the radiator get corroded pretty quick? __________________ water cooled 1.4 tbird @ 1580 143x11 vcore 1.88 vio 3.55

12-09-2002, 02:48 PM	#10
airspirit Been /.'d... have you? Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,986	You're better off snaking a soft copper tubing coil in the water at the bottom. That'll do better than the heatercore, IMHO. It would be cheaper, too. The heatercore would corrode like a mofo if left exposed to water and air. By submerging the copper completely in water that never hits anything but plastic or neutral metal parts, the copper tubing should barely corrode, IF IT IS NOT EXPOSED TO AIR. As for the humidity problem, get a nice pump for your computer and put the bong outside your house. It doesn't matter if junk gets into it, since it should be easy to hose out every now and then (or set up a chimney cover on top of it to prevent leaves and shit from getting in). If I ever decide to use a bong, that is how I'd do it, just for reliability's sake. __________________ #!/bin/sh {who;} {last;} {pause;} {grep;} {touch;} {unzip;} mount /dev/girl -t {wet;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} echo yes yes yes {yes;} umount {/dev/girl;zip;} rm -rf {wet.spot;} {sleep;} finger: permission denied

12-09-2002, 02:49 PM	#11
Puzzdre Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Croatia Posts: 969	nicozeg: air on the exhaust of the bong is warm and damp. It's the water you're cooling with air...The water gets colder, and air warmer... __________________ 'Out of cheese error... ...please reboot the universe (press the GBL to continue)'

12-09-2002, 05:31 PM	#12
UnloadeD Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: MidWest USA Posts: 176	Wow, lottsa comments 8) A few comments. I was planning on needing two pumps so thats not an issue. Also having the core mounted above the fan is a major part of the plan. If the bong half is off or dry, the closed wb loop will still work as the bong acts like a big shroud. Also the core acts as the extra medium other people use in their bongs to increase surface area for the water. I've seen anything from ping pong balls to scotch brite pads used, all to cause more evaporation. I figure with the added surface of the core plus the bit of heat there, thats where most of the evaporating will take place. As I understand it, that where the real cooling takes place, a the water evaporates, not as the drops hit cool moving air. Humidity shouldn't be a real problem for now, as its winter here and gas furnace really dries the air out. It's about time to setup my humidifier anyway. My biggest concern would be buildup on the core. I was thinking of using distilled water and the additives that would go in my humidifier--bactrostat and buildup preventer. Well this started as just a theory, but I think I'm really gonna haveta try it now. I've got tons of plexi, a new table saw, lottsa clamps and glues, so I might as well. The toughest part looks to be getting a good seal around the core and it still being removeable. peace. unloaded

12-09-2002, 06:53 PM	#14
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Sorry Nico, but you're making less sense than ever! Heat comes into the bong assembly from the rad, and exits as hot air. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

12-09-2002, 07:21 PM	#16
waterrat Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: miami Posts: 35	if you want result dunk the rad in the water __________________ 8rda3+,xp1600@1.8gig, OCZ EL 256meg x 2, TI4200, MAZE 3,RIO 1700, BIX size used heater core.

12-09-2002, 07:24 PM	#17
waterrat Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: miami Posts: 35	what are you afraid of,the rad will not melt and you will have less problem with calcium deposit on the fin __________________ 8rda3+,xp1600@1.8gig, OCZ EL 256meg x 2, TI4200, MAZE 3,RIO 1700, BIX size used heater core.

12-09-2002, 08:20 PM	#19
jtroutma Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: SLO, CA Posts: 837	Why dont you build a twister and then put the radiator just below it. That way you have high velocity water forced throught the raditator and you still have something cool to look at. __________________ Athlon64 X2 4200+ @ 2.5Ghz (250FSB x 10) OCZ VX 1GB 4000 @ 250FSB (6-2-2-2 timmings) DFI LANParty nForce4 Ultra-D SCSI Raid 5 x (3) Cheetah 15K HDDs LSI Express 500 (128MB cache) OCZ PowerStream 520W PSU ATI X850XT PE (Stock) DTEK WhiteWater + DTEK Custom Radiator Eheim 1250

12-10-2002, 05:21 AM	#24
waterrat Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: miami Posts: 35	nico, dont forget the fan is introducing warm ambiant air,your rad bring in even warmer air you loose that residual cooler air coming of the surface of the water __________________ 8rda3+,xp1600@1.8gig, OCZ EL 256meg x 2, TI4200, MAZE 3,RIO 1700, BIX size used heater core.

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