Linux is a bastard

[airspirit]

I think I'm about ready to nuke the drive containing my Linux partitions. I've been looking at both the Crossover plugins and XPde to tool around in (I primarily use Linux for browsing/word processing/WORK type junk/screwing around), and I've been unable to install ANY of it. In fact, the only things I've been able to install in Mandrake 9 are Mozilla 1.2.1 (1.3 doesn't want to install) and OpenOffice.

For all the whining the linux whores spew about how Microsoft products are evil, I can do anything under the sun in 3.1 through XP, and Linux doesn't ever seem to want to do ANYTHING. My favorite is when something barfs during an install, and then you're left with this half installed piece of crap that you need to hunt down before you can try (unsuccessfully) to install it again. I'm a frickin developer and I can't make heads or tails of most of that nonsense ... how the hell is Joe Sixpack supposed to figure it out?

Granted, I just downloaded the shiz so I don't have manuals, and I've barely ever peeked in the manuals (they read like a frickin textbook) and only then when in dire straights (for all the good it did ... real results differ from the manual in most circumstances).

I'm going to give Mandrake the boot as soon as possible, assuming I can figure out a way to uninstall it so I can get my XP boot sector restored (it currently boots to an OS selection screen which I assume would be fscked if I just wipe the Linux partition) without a full reinstall of XP (I've done enough of those lately).

Does anyone have a better recommendation for a distro? I'm sick of the general SNAFU of Mandrake, and I'm only familiar with a few others.

[Yo-DUH_87]

No recommendations for another distro, but I share in your pain I'm using (more like bashing around in) Redhat.

It is so darn hard to install anything under Linux, even RPMs don't work half of the time! And installing non-RPMs, you practically have to achieve godhood before you are able to figure that one out (sent in my app this morning ).

While I'm not giving up, as I don't feel like paying big $$$ for 2000 server, I am quite discouraged, and I haven't touched the Linux box for ages. I need to get back on the horse, though, and try again

As for getting rid of the linux bootloader, just install XP over itself, like an upgrade. That seems to do it (at least, it did for me).

[gmat]

Gentoo. You get to understand the mechanics, because you compile everything from the kernel. Excellent step-by-step documentation helps a lot. And you end up with a distro uber-optimized for your PC.
Get it, adopt it.

[airspirit]

Thanks for the input so far (didn't think of the upgrade XP -> XP idea ... does that work under Pro? I haven't seen an upgrade solution for that in the past ... though I normally do format installs).

Any other distro suggestions?

[phreenet]

The only problem with Linux is that the users do not read the errors that are spit back to the terminal. Failed dependancies on installation, required lib packages, paths not set. There is a lot of variables to this than the packages just not working. you can try things like strace on the failed part to see what it did last before it puked. Or the ldd command to see if all the lib. dependacies are found.

And I have never seen an installation of a package go half way and then crap out. Usually the problems occur when you do a configure or a make. Not during the make install. When you are doing a make all the files are stored locally in that directory where you did the make. And a "make clean" will remove them for you.

I use Linux heavily both here at work and at home on several machines, when I run into problems the quickest way to solve them to read some documentation. And you know you can't say you have read the documentation or else you wouldn't have these problems.

[Yo-DUH_87]

Originally posted by airspirit
Thanks for the input so far (didn't think of the upgrade XP -> XP idea ... does that work under Pro? I haven't seen an upgrade solution for that in the past ... though I normally do format installs)...

It has worked with every Windows OS I've tried it with, 95, NT, 98, 98se, 2000, ME, XP Home. I have not gotten to play with pro yet, but I think it should still work. Only thing is it sometimes can reset a few personal settings (such as visual styles), so if you have everything tweaked just so, you might want to do a backup.

I'm going to end up reinstalling XP here soon, as my current install is buggered, throwing up random errors every so often.

Linux does come with some rather pathetic games, though. I have wasted hours on end at "Gnome Stone," just trying to calm my brain down after a frustrating install

[phreenet]

Linux games are not teh win. The only reason I still keep a Windows box around

[airspirit]

Okay, first, I'd like to announce that Mandrake 9.1 (Bamboo) was just released. I'm going to try a fresh install of that before I try anything else.

Second, I'm not starting from a smashed up linux install when I have these issues. The thing that finally put me over the edge was when I reinstalled Mandrake 9 fresh last night and loaded it. It installed and loaded with no errors, except the nightmare trying to configure my ethernet port on my NForce2 board (I had to use an alternate version of the drivers because when I followed the instructions on the NVidia site TO THE LETTER, the rpm package would start going and then say that it terminated in a bad folder or some crap and then would barf). I finally got that working with an alternate install version, and then tried to install XPde.

Here is what I did:

I logged in as root into KDE. In my home directory, I had the tar.gz file, so, following instructions, I ran tar #### [filename] and it decompressed except that it said that there was an unexpected end of file or some nonsense. The decompressed files in the new directory matched the internal contents of the tar file perfectly (I snooped it in Konqueror), so I ran ./install.sh and it got most of the way through and started spitting errors like CRAZY.

The crossover example: I would install the software, and then it would just FREEZE when trying to configure it, and the only way to close it would be to manually restart the machine (causing massive amounts of errors).

Mind you, these were fresh installs. As a user, I want things to work as expected when I run them, not have to debug something for a week before I can even get it installed! Mozilla installed easily, and that was about it ... nothing else I have EVER come across has worked as advertised, even when I follow their walkthroughs to the LETTER.

It could just be that Mandrake sucks ... I dunno. I'm going to give the new version a try and see what happens ... I'll prolly try Red Hat after that, and then whatever else you guys recommend after that. I just don't see how the slashdot crowd expects us all to switch to Linux when it is a nightmare to use even for an educated user.

[bigben2k]

For others who want to give it a shot:

guide here

[mfpmax]

DOS 4 LIFE

[gmat]

Airspirit: linux is very touchy about overclocking and unstability, when compiling stuff.
Also if you've got an archive (zip, tar.gz) and the archiver say's there's a problem.. Don't even try running the contents. The archive is fubared. Download it elsewhere or get another CD.
Personally i don't like RedHat or Mandrake, those are huge distros that come with tons of stuff you don't even know about.
I prefet installing the kernel, and chosing *each* program i'll put there. Gentoo does that perfectly. Heard that freeBSD (not linux) worked the same way than Gentoo does (compilable packages). It works as advertised, indeed.

[mfpmax]

FreeBSD is very configurable...as is Debian...well..1.3.1 anyway.

They at one time had quite similar setups.

[phreenet]

Redhat tends to be very flexiable when installing packages as well.. You can select which programs you want to install as well. Not everyone does the "Install Everything" method.

[phreenet]

I would also like to comment that majority of people who have troubles with Linux are new at, well duh right?. I think their problem arises from people NOT taking the time to READ instructions. Just about every Linux installation comes with man(ual) pages for applications, and just about every source tar ball comes with a README and/or INSTALL file which outlines how to do things. And the problem arises when people who thought they knew everything about everything related to computers try to zip through everything like they did in Wndows. You have to take the time to learn someone new, something different. You have to in effect become a newbie again, and a lot of people don't want to do that because they think people might think less of them?? :shrug:

[mfpmax]

RTFM

Words to live by.

When I bought(yes bought) FreeBSD 2.2.1. I ordered the package set that included a FreeBSD booklet about 3 inches thick. I read that thing so much even before I had a system to use it on. Then when I installed and ran it, I was on easy street. Just needed to open it up and read.

[Yo-DUH_87]

I read a bunch of material about Red Hat, 2 1" books, and the entire on-disc usage manual (my eyes are no longer what they used to be ). While I did gain some knowledge from it all, it almost never works!

Ok, tried that, now it spits an error out *checks books* did just what it said *try again* grr, no go

Redhat is not the best Linux, I'll admit that. I played with Mandrake at a local science museum, and it was ok, but Red Hat comes with most webhosting stuff on the CDs, and seems to be the best "beginners Linux," because of the GUI.

And, no, I didn't pay for Linux, that is why I'm using it, it is free

[mfpmax]

Thats also another thing.

Some people are pulled in by it being free. So they downloaded it not knowing what in the world they are getting into.

Which RedHat and Mandrake you buy at the store. But you get "tech support" with them...not like linux.org or any #linux EFnet channel isn't good for that.

[utabintarbo]

Originally posted by gmat
Gentoo. You get to understand the mechanics, because you compile everything from the kernel. Excellent step-by-step documentation helps a lot. And you end up with a distro uber-optimized for your PC.
Get it, adopt it.

I agree. Gentoo is a distro that doesn't seem to have the dependency issues that plague most RPM-based distros. I have installed it on a number of different PC's, and it seems to get better each time.

Even with the RedHat training I have, I will always prefer Gentoo.

Bob

[phreenet]

I agree. Gentoo is a distro that doesn't seem to have the dependency issues that plague most RPM-based distros. I have installed it on a number of different PC's, and it seems to get better each time.

Almost all packages have dependencies. Gentoo just tries to solve all of them for you. When an RPM chokes and says failed dependency, its not hard to go and solve those. Just download them!

[utabintarbo]

Originally posted by phreenet
Almost all packages have dependencies. Gentoo just tries to solve all of them for you. When an RPM chokes and says failed dependency, its not hard to go and solve those. Just download them!

Pardon the imprecision of my language!

[KnightElite]

About that question of re-installing XP Pro overtop of itself, it works fine almost all the time. After you accept the EULA, and hit F8, it should give you the option to repair your old install. That's when you should do it. Interestingly, it doesn't always work on XP Home from my experience.

[Alchemy]

I wanted to use a Linux box for some of my research. All it needed was compatibility with an image capture card.

Through some luck, I managed to get in touch with the people who designed the card and wrote its Windows and Linux drivers.

The Linux drivers worked for a particular kernel. Kernel changed, driver was useless.

They wrote a new driver. Kernel changed, driver was useless.

I can't recall how many times they did this, but they eventually built up a distaste for Linux that I share.

No corporate-designed OS is as fickle, where the kernel continually changes and no two pieces of obscure hardware EVER work for the same kernel.

Drove me nuts, gave up, used Win98SE, cursed for 12 months about it.

Alchemy

[phreenet]

The Linux drivers worked for a particular kernel. Kernel changed, driver was useless.

Sounds like bad software engineering to me. I have updated my kernel some 6 times since I installed Redhat 8.0 on my laptop to fix security and performance related bugs. Not once has any of my driver modules failed to load, including the driver for my WinModem. But if you do get yourself in that position, don't upgrade the kernel??

No corporate-designed OS is as fickle, where the kernel continually changes and no two pieces of obscure hardware EVER work for the same kernel.

Not true, it all goes back to poor software design. Compatability between verisons of Windows can become quite a pain in the neck, and as a specific example, at work there is software from a company called Invensys would not work with Windows2000, so it was stuck no an old crash prone NT4 machine that also could not be upgraded past SP4 because it broke the software. So the problem isn't local to Linux.

[airspirit]

I dunno ... I've always followed the readme instructions (and any forum based methods as well) when trying installs, and they just don't work for me. I believe in reading the manual (as a reference, not a novel), and do so regularly, but I've found that Linux doesn't match the manual except in the broadest sense. I guess it's something I'll have to fsck with for a while. The main reason I'm bothering is that soon I'll be setting up a DNS/Proxy/Firewall/Web server (busy SOB), and I want to use Linux rather than warezed microshit. I just need to get it to work and be comfortable with it before I commit my network to a mess that I don't understand.

[iroc409]