How low can you go...?

Tempus · 12-01-2003, 03:40 PM

I'm moving towards a chilled liquid setup (ie refridgeration.)

Is there any technical issues with using a standard waterblock (maze4, whitewater,cascade, etc) with a liquid refridgerant such as R12?

Will the polytops be able to deal with that fluid and lower temps? The gaskets? Anything else I'm not thinking about?

iroc409 · 12-01-2003, 05:02 PM

i haven't dealt with refrigeration in computers and stuff really, but i've been around r12/r134 setups in cars.

i don't know the actual pressures run, but in the high side i don't think a water block (especially with a poly top) would be able to hold just from the pressure.

i don't know about the low side, but i still wouldn't risk it. that stuff usually comes out pretty briskly with a leak, and a/c hoses and fittings are generally built for pretty high pressures.

probably want to get a pro's opinion, but that's just from my little experience from auto ac setups.

Boli · 12-01-2003, 05:13 PM

Your biggest worry I think would condensation - if you decide to bring the temperature below the dew point.

As for the coolant issues: The most that will happen is a corrosion of the O-Ring and/or the TFT tape around the brass barbs - an annual replacement of these parts will solve this.

Realistically the worst that can happen is after a period of time you might see the water block display signs of discolouration and after even longer, slow leaks. This happens in the long run for blocks anyway to my knowledge and I seriously doubt anything more untoward will happen.

~ Boli

EDIT: High preasure: I don't know the exact specs but I recon they can take quite high preasure - the weak point is the hoses attachment to the barbs and not the block itself - that'll be the place it'll blow.

If you are interest in running EXTREME high preasure look on TEC setups that "went wrong" where it boiled the water and turned it to steam and see where the "blow out" was.

Tempus · 12-01-2003, 06:41 PM

I'm not talking about using the blocks as an evaporator in the refridgeration cycle. I'd use a plate and frame system to create cold water and pump that water through the water blocks.

But it would be a very cold water. Cold enough I don't want to use water as the liquid medium. So I was thinking of using a liquid like R12/502/232/132 etc since they tend to have a lower freezing point.

I just want to make sure that the pieces won't go ugly.

the pressure will be no higher than a normal watercooled system.

Cathar · 12-01-2003, 07:53 PM

For the Cascade:

O-rings rated down to -35C, -40C in a pinch

Barb sealant rated down to -55C.

Have pumped -5C liquid through my Cascade before without issues.

Can get replacement extreme cold rated O-rings for the Cascade which will allow down to -80C or so. Can get lower again but I'm unsure of the exact details as they aren't common in Australia. I don't supply them myself, but they cost around $1 each (you need two) and the Cascade takes BS136 sized O-rings.

It all depends on how low you want to go. Down to -35C you're fairly safe with the stock Cascade block. Down to -40C I'd put some oil on the O-rings to help them seal better. That should be fairly safe for most single-stage refrigerative chiller setups.

Tempus · 12-01-2003, 08:19 PM

Thanks Cathar. I figured I'd email you about yours tomorrow if you didn't manage to see this.

brucoman · 12-02-2003, 07:20 PM

Chilled water works very well with any water block! Sub-freezing water, however, does require thoughts/test on iffy water blocks.
Depends on how cold you want to go.... can keep it just above dew point (no insulation) if you want a clean looking install/UV glowies, or insulate all lines/blocks/pins/sockets & go as cold as you want. Approaching freezing you need to decide what you want to use for anti-freeze (auto anti-freeze is not great for chilled PC's) and only add enough to prevent slushing/freezing.

Tempus · 12-02-2003, 07:44 PM

Which is why I was thinking of using R12 as the liquid in the cooling system AND the refridgeration system.

Gonna beat the condensation issues with an air tight main body case and some dessicant and fans. =)

V12|V12 · 12-09-2003, 07:16 PM

Whoa whoa, wait... I are you talking about doing Vapor cooling OR Vapor cooling for chilling water then running chilled water as the coolant? If you are doing just straight Vapor-Phase... haha that poly top will Pop like corn in a fire under the pressure and LOW temps... Most Vapor phase compressors run around 140-low side 230+ high side (Capillary Line) And condensation will be the MAIN enemy of your system if you do either or... Oh and if you run just Vapor system... you're going to HAVE to get all new tubing and a Regular condensor (radiator) Cause Heater cores wouldn't take the pressures. Oh, the reason you'll need new tubes and what not, is at ultra high pressure, the compressed R12 will be in liquid form and will react with any contaminant/residue in the tubes and the ester or mineral oil used in the compressor/lines will form acids if in contact with ANY moisture..... Okay I'm tired more later .... 1 more thing... I'd recommend using R291 (propane) since it's cheaper, has a the most optimal boiling point and it's CHEAPER and LEGAL to get in vast amounts... Most compressors are compatible with it also, including their oils.

Cathar · 12-09-2003, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by V12|V12
Whoa whoa, wait... I are you talking about doing Vapor cooling OR Vapor cooling for chilling water then running chilled water as the coolant?

Quote:

Originally posted by Tempus
I'm not talking about using the blocks as an evaporator in the refridgeration cycle. I'd use a plate and frame system to create cold water and pump that water through the water blocks.

But it would be a very cold water. Cold enough I don't want to use water as the liquid medium. So I was thinking of using a liquid like R12/502/232/132 etc since they tend to have a lower freezing point.

I just want to make sure that the pieces won't go ugly.

the pressure will be no higher than a normal watercooled system.

Tempus · 12-09-2003, 09:15 PM

Thanks cathar. I was getting tired to saying the same thing over and over.

Was I just not being clear?

UberBlue · 12-09-2003, 09:57 PM

What's the vapor pressure @ room temp of R12/502/232/132?

Tempus · 12-10-2003, 12:04 AM

Typically those are actually liquid at room temp.

brucoman · 12-10-2003, 10:11 AM

from an earlier time in my life...

R12 has a boiling point of -30 C.... I don't see you keeping it below that!

BTW, watch your pump destroy itself.... unless you acquire a LN pump....

N8 · 12-10-2003, 10:46 AM

I think he is saying he wants to use r12 (or a refrigerant) INSTEAD of water, through the water block, as a replacement for water. I do not think this is viable, nor will the refrigerant have the heat absorbing capabilities to perform as a replacement for water in a normal water block system, nor will the water pump be able to pump the r12 or whatever refrigerant you use. Probably have all sorts of hose issues and leakage, etc.

Cathar · 12-10-2003, 12:51 PM

Pure ethanol is probably the best bet for the sorts of temperatures being considered, or a part ethanol/water mix. Ethanol being an easily managed room temperature liquid that has a freezing point of around -110C, and a thermal capacity about 60% that of water (from memory - could be wrong). Apparantly gets a little "slushy" below -60C or so.

If I were chasing liquid temps down to -50C, as I've often considered, ethanol would be my first choice. Avoid methanol though, which has dangeroud vapors.

Tempus · 12-10-2003, 01:35 PM

I think R11 is liquid at room.

Right now I want to use Brine (CaCl2) as the water side of a plate and frame chilled water system. Then I can still use my cascade.

Failing that, I'll just build some refrigeration blocks.

UberBlue · 12-10-2003, 02:48 PM

Exactly how cold are you going? If it's above -80, stick with ethanol.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tempus
I think R11 is liquid at room.

R11's boiling point is 78.4 deg. F, but its vapor pressure @ 70F is 635.9 psi. Your system would explode.

R11 MSDS

Quote:

Originally posted by Tempus
Right now I want to use Brine (CaCl2) as the water side of a plate and frame chilled water system. Then I can still use my cascade.

Failing that, I'll just build some refrigeration blocks.

Do you have any idea what -Cl ions do to metal?

Tempus · 12-10-2003, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberBlue
Do you have any idea what -Cl ions do to metal?

Ohhh.. take all the fun out of it.

On a more serious note, yeah I do. Do you realize that most commerical freezing system - such as those that are used in supermarkets to keep the frozen food displays cold - use a brine system.

There will be some testing with the water blocks and the pump but its not going to have to go into a rad and I think the pump will be okay. Blocks -- hmmmm --- only one way to find out.

brucoman · 12-11-2003, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar

If I were chasing liquid temps down to -50C, as I've often considered, ethanol would be my first choice. Avoid methanol though, which has dangeroud vapors. [/b]

Meth isn't bad in low concentrations. I am at ~6% meth/2% ethylene glycol/2% isopropal in my chilled rig for the last 3 months (external components in a closed well closet).

12-01-2003, 03:40 PM	#1
Tempus Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 456	How low can you go...? I'm moving towards a chilled liquid setup (ie refridgeration.) Is there any technical issues with using a standard waterblock (maze4, whitewater,cascade, etc) with a liquid refridgerant such as R12? Will the polytops be able to deal with that fluid and lower temps? The gaskets? Anything else I'm not thinking about? __________________ Thou art God.

12-01-2003, 05:02 PM	#2
iroc409 Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: midwest side, yo Posts: 596	i haven't dealt with refrigeration in computers and stuff really, but i've been around r12/r134 setups in cars. i don't know the actual pressures run, but in the high side i don't think a water block (especially with a poly top) would be able to hold just from the pressure. i don't know about the low side, but i still wouldn't risk it. that stuff usually comes out pretty briskly with a leak, and a/c hoses and fittings are generally built for pretty high pressures. probably want to get a pro's opinion, but that's just from my little experience from auto ac setups. __________________ :shrug:

12-01-2003, 05:13 PM	#3
Boli Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Blackburn / Dundee Posts: 451	Your biggest worry I think would condensation - if you decide to bring the temperature below the dew point. As for the coolant issues: The most that will happen is a corrosion of the O-Ring and/or the TFT tape around the brass barbs - an annual replacement of these parts will solve this. Realistically the worst that can happen is after a period of time you might see the water block display signs of discolouration and after even longer, slow leaks. This happens in the long run for blocks anyway to my knowledge and I seriously doubt anything more untoward will happen. ~ Boli EDIT: High preasure: I don't know the exact specs but I recon they can take quite high preasure - the weak point is the hoses attachment to the barbs and not the block itself - that'll be the place it'll blow. If you are interest in running EXTREME high preasure look on TEC setups that "went wrong" where it boiled the water and turned it to steam and see where the "blow out" was. __________________ 1800+ @ 2247 (214x10.5) - STABLE, 512MB PC3700 TwinX Cosair RAM, NF7-S v2.0, GeForce3 Ti200 Parallel BIM, 120.1 Thermochill, Eheim 1048, Maze 3, Maze4 GPU, "Z" chipset, 1/2" tubing, PC-70: 5x120mm & 9x80mm fans. Internet Server & second machine (folding 24/7): 512MB DDR RAM, XP2000+ Last edited by Boli; 12-01-2003 at 05:22 PM.

12-01-2003, 06:41 PM	#4
Tempus Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 456	I'm not talking about using the blocks as an evaporator in the refridgeration cycle. I'd use a plate and frame system to create cold water and pump that water through the water blocks. But it would be a very cold water. Cold enough I don't want to use water as the liquid medium. So I was thinking of using a liquid like R12/502/232/132 etc since they tend to have a lower freezing point. I just want to make sure that the pieces won't go ugly. the pressure will be no higher than a normal watercooled system. __________________ Thou art God.

12-01-2003, 08:19 PM	#6
Tempus Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 456	Thanks Cathar. I figured I'd email you about yours tomorrow if you didn't manage to see this. __________________ Thou art God.

12-01-2003, 07:53 PM	#5
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	For the Cascade: O-rings rated down to -35C, -40C in a pinch Barb sealant rated down to -55C. Have pumped -5C liquid through my Cascade before without issues. Can get replacement extreme cold rated O-rings for the Cascade which will allow down to -80C or so. Can get lower again but I'm unsure of the exact details as they aren't common in Australia. I don't supply them myself, but they cost around $1 each (you need two) and the Cascade takes BS136 sized O-rings. It all depends on how low you want to go. Down to -35C you're fairly safe with the stock Cascade block. Down to -40C I'd put some oil on the O-rings to help them seal better. That should be fairly safe for most single-stage refrigerative chiller setups.

12-02-2003, 07:20 PM	#7
brucoman Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 157	Chilled water works very well with any water block! Sub-freezing water, however, does require thoughts/test on iffy water blocks. Depends on how cold you want to go.... can keep it just above dew point (no insulation) if you want a clean looking install/UV glowies, or insulate all lines/blocks/pins/sockets & go as cold as you want. Approaching freezing you need to decide what you want to use for anti-freeze (auto anti-freeze is not great for chilled PC's) and only add enough to prevent slushing/freezing.

12-02-2003, 07:44 PM	#8
Tempus Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 456	Which is why I was thinking of using R12 as the liquid in the cooling system AND the refridgeration system. Gonna beat the condensation issues with an air tight main body case and some dessicant and fans. =) __________________ Thou art God.

12-09-2003, 07:16 PM	#9
V12\|V12 Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ohio-State! <--Money Hussle! SUCKS Posts: 292	Whoa whoa, wait... I are you talking about doing Vapor cooling OR Vapor cooling for chilling water then running chilled water as the coolant? If you are doing just straight Vapor-Phase... haha that poly top will Pop like corn in a fire under the pressure and LOW temps... Most Vapor phase compressors run around 140-low side 230+ high side (Capillary Line) And condensation will be the MAIN enemy of your system if you do either or... Oh and if you run just Vapor system... you're going to HAVE to get all new tubing and a Regular condensor (radiator) Cause Heater cores wouldn't take the pressures. Oh, the reason you'll need new tubes and what not, is at ultra high pressure, the compressed R12 will be in liquid form and will react with any contaminant/residue in the tubes and the ester or mineral oil used in the compressor/lines will form acids if in contact with ANY moisture..... Okay I'm tired more later .... 1 more thing... I'd recommend using R291 (propane) since it's cheaper, has a the most optimal boiling point and it's CHEAPER and LEGAL to get in vast amounts... Most compressors are compatible with it also, including their oils. __________________ XP 1600+ AGOIA-Y (GreenLabel, UNLOCKED!@/ NF7-S 2.0/ PC 2700 DDR 10.5*172FSB(1806/ 1991 high), Vcore 1.792...@84.95Watts --86' Chevette Heater Core --1/2" Vinyl tubes --Via1300-Stealth Mod(QUIET!) ---Home made copper-tube block ---PVC small internal res

12-09-2003, 09:15 PM	#11
Tempus Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 456	Thanks cathar. I was getting tired to saying the same thing over and over. Was I just not being clear? __________________ Thou art God.

12-09-2003, 09:57 PM	#12
UberBlue Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA Posts: 95	What's the vapor pressure @ room temp of R12/502/232/132?

12-10-2003, 12:04 AM	#13
Tempus Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 456	Typically those are actually liquid at room temp. __________________ Thou art God.

12-10-2003, 10:11 AM	#14
brucoman Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 157	from an earlier time in my life... R12 has a boiling point of -30 C.... I don't see you keeping it below that! BTW, watch your pump destroy itself.... unless you acquire a LN pump....

12-10-2003, 10:46 AM	#15
N8 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Pullman, WA Posts: 91	I think he is saying he wants to use r12 (or a refrigerant) INSTEAD of water, through the water block, as a replacement for water. I do not think this is viable, nor will the refrigerant have the heat absorbing capabilities to perform as a replacement for water in a normal water block system, nor will the water pump be able to pump the r12 or whatever refrigerant you use. Probably have all sorts of hose issues and leakage, etc.

12-10-2003, 12:51 PM	#16
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	Pure ethanol is probably the best bet for the sorts of temperatures being considered, or a part ethanol/water mix. Ethanol being an easily managed room temperature liquid that has a freezing point of around -110C, and a thermal capacity about 60% that of water (from memory - could be wrong). Apparantly gets a little "slushy" below -60C or so. If I were chasing liquid temps down to -50C, as I've often considered, ethanol would be my first choice. Avoid methanol though, which has dangeroud vapors.

12-10-2003, 01:35 PM	#17
Tempus Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 456	I think R11 is liquid at room. Right now I want to use Brine (CaCl2) as the water side of a plate and frame chilled water system. Then I can still use my cascade. Failing that, I'll just build some refrigeration blocks. __________________ Thou art God.

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