To relay or not to relay?

psychofunk · 12-21-2003, 03:06 AM

Well I have another dilema. pH says no on the relay, Bladerunner says yes, I say wtf damn water cooling

. Okay not really it's just another mild area of confusion for me and two reputable guys with contradictory advice:shrug:

(btw please don't take this as slamming on either of these guys as to me they are both very, very knowledgeable). So to the point already...alot of you guys have been water cooling since I was in diapers so I was hoping that maybe some of you might have some first hand experience with this. Does it really shorten the pumps life? If so, by how much? What other potential problems are there? Do relays themselves malfuction? What kind of a life expectancy does a relay have? Will I need to replace it every year? 2 years? I have a relay from cooltechnica and I am using a danner mag drive 3 and I typically will use my computer every day so figure on and off 1.5 times a day for an average. Any and all comments are appreciated. Thanks in advance fellas.

Turbokeu · 12-21-2003, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by psychofunk
Well I have another dilema. pH says no on the relay, Bladerunner says yes, I say wtf damn water cooling . Okay not really it's just another mild area of confusion for me and two reputable guys with contradictory advice:shrug: (btw please don't take this as slamming on either of these guys as to me they are both very, very knowledgeable). So to the point already...alot of you guys have been water cooling since I was in diapers so I was hoping that maybe some of you might have some first hand experience with this. Does it really shorten the pumps life? If so, by how much? What other potential problems are there? Do relays themselves malfuction? What kind of a life expectancy does a relay have? Will I need to replace it every year? 2 years? I have a relay from cooltechnica and I am using a danner mag drive 3 and I typically will use my computer every day so figure on and off 1.5 times a day for an average. Any and all comments are appreciated. Thanks in advance fellas.

I had fishtanks for the last three decades and since the beginning I switch off the pumps once or twice a day during fish feeding to avoid precipitation of the fish food, and never had a pump failure due to it.
I had pump failures due to bad impeller bearing development (especially with the italian Sicce and Sacem brands, when closed motor mag drive pumps began to appear in aquariums in the 70's).

You can compare it to a fluorescent (TL) lamp.
It's generally admitted that switching TL lamps shortens their life and that it's better to leave them on rather than switching them on and off.
Sure, but switching on and off the TL a couple of times and leaving it off during 12 hours in total or so a day will gain you a lot more life expectancy than when you leave it on 24/24...

Also, good quality (electromagnetic) relays are rated for (tens or hundreds of) thousands of switch cycles, so don't worry about it.

Of course, this is only my opinion...

CD

rocketmanx · 12-21-2003, 12:23 PM

I agre with Turbokeu.
And so I leave my box running 24/7 only shutting down to swap hardware etc... I think the heat cycle on the pump is the big killer, I see it the same as race engines, it's not so much the big power high R's that kill em it's the heat cycles when they are up to temp then shut down, parts are made to run at a certain temp and things tend to swell when hot.

The relay I agree also, the relay should long outlive the pump and probably everything else in your box.

I agree with bladerunner on the relay. I like a relay only because my memory sucks

If you happen to get in a big rippin' hurry, all excited about that new pump, block, etc... you just installed, then forget to plug in the pump

Just a good failsafe having a relay. They are so easy to install I see not installing one as a bit lazy, spend all that money on the best water cooling stuff only to skimp on something as simple as a relay. Doesn't make sense to me, IMHO.

killernoodle · 12-21-2003, 02:38 PM

Plus relays are very cheap to make.

This is my relay, made from the plug of an old power supply, the wires from an old fan, a tiny project box, and a relay from radio shack. Total project cost: $10 and it is activated by a fan header from the motherboard.

Turbokeu · 12-21-2003, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rocketmanx
I agre with Turbokeu.
And so I leave my box running 24/7 only shutting down to swap hardware etc... I think the heat cycle on the pump is the big killer, I see it the same as race engines, it's not so much the big power high R's that kill em it's the heat cycles when they are up to temp then shut down, parts are made to run at a certain temp and things tend to swell when hot.

The relay I agree also, the relay should long outlive the pump and probably everything else in your box.

I agree with bladerunner on the relay. I like a relay only because my memory sucks If you happen to get in a big rippin' hurry, all excited about that new pump, block, etc... you just installed, then forget to plug in the pump
Just a good failsafe having a relay. They are so easy to install I see not installing one as a bit lazy, spend all that money on the best water cooling stuff only to skimp on something as simple as a relay. Doesn't make sense to me, IMHO.

You agree with me?

I'm stating the opposite of what you tell in your reply...

BTW, I do not agree about the heat cycles when switching the pump, my water temp is maximum 30°C when running Prime95 @ about 20-22°C ambient. So temp gradient is about 10°C.
Car motors run @ about 90°C or more water temperature even when ambient is -40°C...

The advantage of a relay is that you know your pump is powered on when you switch on your PC, and powered off when you switch it off. (I know, it's not sure for 100%, but then I have a digital flowmeter that indicates if the pump is running...)

Anyway, I'm from the "old" generation, if you don't need it, don't power it...

CD

psychofunk · 12-21-2003, 09:45 PM

Thanks fellas!

rocketmanx · 12-22-2003, 01:03 AM

Didn't read your reply all the way through

No I don't agree

about the cycling. What didfference does it make how high the temp is, heat cycle is aheat cycle. The amount the part is designed to take is relative to the task it's meant to perform. When you shut off your water pump your pump loses it's ability to carry away the heat generated right after power off. The pump relies on water flow to cool it, at shut down it's still up to full temp.

The last reply I agree with the you about the pump being on when the comps turned on, that's what I meant by a "failsafe"

Turbokeu · 12-22-2003, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rocketmanx
Didn't read your reply all the way through

No I don't agree about the cycling. What didfference does it make how high the temp is, heat cycle is aheat cycle. The amount the part is designed to take is relative to the task it's meant to perform. When you shut off your water pump your pump loses it's ability to carry away the heat generated right after power off. The pump relies on water flow to cool it, at shut down it's still up to full temp.

The last reply I agree with the you about the pump being on when the comps turned on, that's what I meant by a "failsafe"

I still do not agree with the cycling thing...
In many reef aquariums they use wavegenerators to alternately switch two pumps every few seconds to simulate the back and forth waterflow of waves...

CD

MMZ_TimeLord · 12-22-2003, 09:09 AM

I agree that a relay in or from your power supply to switch on the pump is a good idea.

My only reason for NOT doing it is because I'd like to know if I have a leak in my system BEFORE I power the motherboard or CPU. Again, that's the only reason I don't do it.

I have my pump on a separate power cord and always verify the system after I've either moved it to a LAN party or done any maintenance on it.

Hope that helps you some...

rocketmanx · 12-22-2003, 09:43 AM

I have seperate cods as well MMZ. I switch the wires on the Swifty relay for bleeding leak checking. Don't know why you'd want to put them both on the same cord? How would you bleed the system?

BladeRunner · 12-22-2003, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Turbokeu
Anyway, I'm from the "old" generation, if you don't need it, don't power it...

This is my feeling too...... I'm also old..... er umm I mean "old" generation

I'm also not in favour of running pumps continuously when the PC is off. Unless you physically turn your PC off at the power outlet all the time, (which is a pita), there is still 5v standby on the mobo and mains in the PSU. That's not an ideal for any leak situation if you are sleeping or away from home.

psychofunk · 12-22-2003, 11:50 PM

Quote:

...there is still 5v standby on the mobo and mains in the PSU. That's not an ideal for any leak situation if you are sleeping or away from home. [/b]

Ahh! So this 5v is still enough power to toast your hardware. That explains why some sys are toast after a leak and some are not even though they may have all been shutdown. Good to know.

Btw, Bladerunner, you make the best looking blocks I have ever seen and if you get your stuff on the market I will definately buy, even if only for ohhhss and aaahhhsss (my own that is)

psychofunk · 12-24-2003, 04:33 AM

Well I did it and every time I turn the comp on or off I get this crackling noise (as though there is air in the system). Is this going to kill the pump? Am I doing something wrong. I have an air trap and I have run this damn thing for days:shrug: and I have shaken and turned and banged this damn thing a million times. I love water cooling but

I have temporarily bypassed the relay so the pump is on 24/7 right now.

psychofunk · 12-26-2003, 10:01 PM

anyone? I just wanna know if this is normal or did I do something wrong?

12-21-2003, 03:06 AM	#1
psychofunk Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 365	To relay or not to relay? Well I have another dilema. pH says no on the relay, Bladerunner says yes, I say wtf damn water cooling . Okay not really it's just another mild area of confusion for me and two reputable guys with contradictory advice:shrug: (btw please don't take this as slamming on either of these guys as to me they are both very, very knowledgeable). So to the point already...alot of you guys have been water cooling since I was in diapers so I was hoping that maybe some of you might have some first hand experience with this. Does it really shorten the pumps life? If so, by how much? What other potential problems are there? Do relays themselves malfuction? What kind of a life expectancy does a relay have? Will I need to replace it every year? 2 years? I have a relay from cooltechnica and I am using a danner mag drive 3 and I typically will use my computer every day so figure on and off 1.5 times a day for an average. Any and all comments are appreciated. Thanks in advance fellas.

12-21-2003, 02:38 PM	#4
killernoodle Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,014	Plus relays are very cheap to make. This is my relay, made from the plug of an old power supply, the wires from an old fan, a tiny project box, and a relay from radio shack. Total project cost: $10 and it is activated by a fan header from the motherboard. __________________ I have a nice computer.

12-22-2003, 01:03 AM	#7
rocketmanx Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 127	Didn't read your reply all the way through No I don't agree about the cycling. What didfference does it make how high the temp is, heat cycle is aheat cycle. The amount the part is designed to take is relative to the task it's meant to perform. When you shut off your water pump your pump loses it's ability to carry away the heat generated right after power off. The pump relies on water flow to cool it, at shut down it's still up to full temp. The last reply I agree with the you about the pump being on when the comps turned on, that's what I meant by a "failsafe" Last edited by rocketmanx; 12-22-2003 at 01:08 AM.

12-22-2003, 09:09 AM	#9
MMZ_TimeLord Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Mateo, CA, USA, Earth Posts: 433	I agree that a relay in or from your power supply to switch on the pump is a good idea. My only reason for NOT doing it is because I'd like to know if I have a leak in my system BEFORE I power the motherboard or CPU. Again, that's the only reason I don't do it. I have my pump on a separate power cord and always verify the system after I've either moved it to a LAN party or done any maintenance on it. Hope that helps you some... __________________ MMZ>TimeLord "Oooooooooh... that's gonna leave a mark!"

12-21-2003, 12:23 PM	#3
rocketmanx Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 127	I agre with Turbokeu. And so I leave my box running 24/7 only shutting down to swap hardware etc... I think the heat cycle on the pump is the big killer, I see it the same as race engines, it's not so much the big power high R's that kill em it's the heat cycles when they are up to temp then shut down, parts are made to run at a certain temp and things tend to swell when hot. The relay I agree also, the relay should long outlive the pump and probably everything else in your box. I agree with bladerunner on the relay. I like a relay only because my memory sucks If you happen to get in a big rippin' hurry, all excited about that new pump, block, etc... you just installed, then forget to plug in the pump Just a good failsafe having a relay. They are so easy to install I see not installing one as a bit lazy, spend all that money on the best water cooling stuff only to skimp on something as simple as a relay. Doesn't make sense to me, IMHO.

12-21-2003, 09:45 PM	#6
psychofunk Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 365	Thanks fellas!

12-22-2003, 09:43 AM	#10
rocketmanx Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 127	I have seperate cods as well MMZ. I switch the wires on the Swifty relay for bleeding leak checking. Don't know why you'd want to put them both on the same cord? How would you bleed the system?

12-24-2003, 04:33 AM	#13
psychofunk Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 365	Well I did it and every time I turn the comp on or off I get this crackling noise (as though there is air in the system). Is this going to kill the pump? Am I doing something wrong. I have an air trap and I have run this damn thing for days:shrug: and I have shaken and turned and banged this damn thing a million times. I love water cooling but I have temporarily bypassed the relay so the pump is on 24/7 right now.

12-26-2003, 10:01 PM	#14
psychofunk Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 365	anyone? I just wanna know if this is normal or did I do something wrong?

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