Water Cooling a Lost Art?

[jaydee]

Back in the day, not to long a go, water cooling was more of an art. People were building their own blocks and res's and what not and had fun doing it. Today with the innovation of water cooling products by various, maybe to many, commercial companies water cooling has lost a lot of its art form. I see a lot less people interested in building their own water cooling parts and more people moving on to pre-built commercial stuff.

It is really sad to me to see the DIY Pro's disappear off the net one by one. I think mainly they have simply lost interest due to lack of challenge. The Air coolers of today are still more than sufficient to cool even the fastest CPU today and the fastest CPU today needs no overclocking because it is running the same apps it was 2 years ago at half the CPU power. Back in the day we overclocked to make applications, mainly Windows itself, run faster and smoother. Today Window and many other apps run smooth as silk at 1200mhz were the top of the line CPU is up wards of 3.6+ghz. Even games don't run noticeably better with a decent system running at stock compared to overclocked.

The commercial water cooling products have improved considerably as well. Back in the day the average DIY could build a better block then any commercial block there was. Today the average DIY will not. A $40 Swiftech MCW6000 series block is very difficult to beat. Doubtful you will spend less than $40 trying to beat it.

Today I see a bunch of people slapping together a bunch of premade flashy stuff and calling it custom. Back in the day custom meant building the stuff yourself.

What is you thoughts on the subject?

[El]v[0IsEv1L]

The real problem is that Commercial blocks bought out DIY designs.

Like The WhiteWater.... it was pretty much bought by DTek and then DD came out with the RBX.. pretty much all on the same design.

The problem is that DIY's sold out. Now Commercial blocks have the designs that DIY peeps made (like hte TDX as well) and it's hard for new DIY's to compete.

Essentially DIY's are competing against DIY's.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by El]v[0IsEv1L

The real problem is that Commercial blocks bought out DIY designs.

Like The WhiteWater.... it was pretty much bought by DTek and then DD came out with the RBX.. pretty much all on the same design.

The problem is that DIY's sold out. Now Commercial blocks have the designs that DIY peeps made (like hte TDX as well) and it's hard for new DIY's to compete.

Essentially DIY's are competing against DIY's.

Those two blocks are not great examples. The RBX/TDX designer was never interested in being a DIY guy. He designed the block and then DD made it. The White Water was originally designed and made by Cathar as was the Cascade and now the Storm. D-Tek struck a deal with Cathar for the White Water. Hard to classify those as DIY stuff. The real DIY stuff is the guys that made white water clones. At the time there was many people making DIY versions of commercial blocks and their own blocks. Now I don't see but a couple people making their own blocks and half of them have yet to do any real work on it. It seems to me that people have just lost intrest in building blocks and other DIY parts and mods.

You can cheaply buy anything pre-modded these days. That IMO is the reason DIY is going out of style.

[El]v[0IsEv1L]

And again... the reason for that is that commercial companies were sold the rights to produce blocks from designs engineered by DIY makers.

Commercial blocks would still be making Maze designs if it weren't for that.

[shadowing]

I'm interested in making DIY waterblocks. I find much much more pride and satisfaction in doing so. It isn't "custom" unless you make it.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by El]v[0IsEv1L

And again... the reason for that is that commercial companies were sold the rights to produce blocks from designs engineered by DIY makers.

Commercial blocks would still be making Maze designs if it weren't for that.

We are not just talking about blocks but everything from case mods to res's... I can think of just a couple blocks that went from DIY makers to commercial. Many commercial blocks were developed by companies from DIY'ers though. The lack of new blocks on the market is a prime example of both our opinions. DIY sold out or quit and now new concepts are not being discussed or implemented DIY or commercial.

Anyway the reason WHY things are going the way they are is not so much why I started this thread. The main discussion I was hoping for is "is it good" or "is it bad" that DIY is slowly dieing..

I think it is bad as we both know DIY ideas are pretty much what made the water cooling parts of today as they are. Without new ideas we might still be using MCW6000's in 4 years though as your logic above proves.

[El]v[0IsEv1L]

Exactly....

And DIY's right now are not interested anymore because most peeps can just buy a block and not have to worry about learning to make one anymore. And the blocks they can buy are currently better then those that they can currently make.

Also worth pointing out that waterblock technology has reached it's climax. I do not believe, with the current materials, that anything truly better will come out.

Radiators are getting bigger and bigger and pumps keep pumping quicker and quicker... but the blocks are still using Copper. (Silver in some designs but the difference between Silver and Copper is negligible).

I don't think better designs will come out anytime soon.

[redleader]

Watercooling is grown up now. Hell Apple sells complete watercooled systems to businesses and schools. Its not going to be like it was when we were getting into it.

Phase change cooling OTOH, still has lots of room for the DIYer. Most phasechange blocks make the Maze2 look hightech

Shame the learning curve and tools required keep so many people out.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by El]v[0IsEv1L

Exactly....

And DIY's right now are not interested anymore because most peeps can just buy a block and not have to worry about learning to make one anymore. And the blocks they can buy are currently better then those that they can currently make.

Also worth pointing out that waterblock technology has reached it's climax. I do not believe, with the current materials, that anything truly better will come out.

Radiators are getting bigger and bigger and pumps keep pumping quicker and quicker... but the blocks are still using Copper. (Silver in some designs but the difference between Silver and Copper is negligible).

I don't think better designs will come out anytime soon.

Agreed.

The learning curve for good performing DIY block has got to the point people don't want to bother.

One reason I started this thread was to make a decision on were to go with my water cooling hobby. I am pondering dropping the DIY aspect of things being there just doesn't seem to enough interest in it to warrant spending all my free time on it for others.

I had planned to do a series of tests with my test bench on various aspects of block design but I got to thinking the average DIY'er just doesn't have the equipment to do most of the stuff I was planning on doing. All the designs I have in mind and have made pretty much reply on my CNC mill. Not to many DIY'ers have a mill and the one's that do usually have their own designs to do.

I don't like doing things just to get a pat on the back and then no one actually use my shared experience to do something on their own.

I am at a cross roads right now on what to do....

[El]v[0IsEv1L]

I love seeing new block designs and I remember when the whole seen was flourishing.

We need something different. We have the blocks.. we have the pumps.. it's the rads and the liquid we use that need improvement... we're still relying on simple rad designs.

[Delirious]

Originally Posted by El]v[0IsEv1L

I love seeing new block designs and I remember when the whole seen was flourishing.

We need something different. We have the blocks.. we have the pumps.. it's the rads and the liquid we use that need improvement... we're still relying on simple rad designs.

Like u guys said, alot dont have access to mills and other such tools to make good blocks, not to mention the know how to design a efficient block. Which makes it cheaper and easier to go out and buy one.

If i had access to a good mill i would make my own. Theres always more satisfaction for me in makeing something myself.

[kaotic504]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

I had planned to do a series of tests with my test bench on various aspects of block design but I got to thinking the average DIY'er just doesn't have the equipment to do most of the stuff I was planning on doing. All the designs I have in mind and have made pretty much reply on my CNC mill. Not to many DIY'ers have a mill and the one's that do usually have their own designs to do.
.

not having the proper tools was a big part of it for me. if i had a CNC machine or access to one regularly, you bet i'd build my own block before i bought one. and i do it even if it costs a bit more b/c i would get to say i did it w/ my own 2 hands (plus a machine). people are still into the custom HeatCore stage and i don't see THAT many people selling out and buying BIX's, well not on this forum at least. i do have plans for a block soon that i would like everyone's opinion on. but that post will have to wait till tomorrow or another day.
another factos is that today we live in an age where time is serious money. people don't have the time to put into building blocks b/c they have families to take care of an provide for. man, i WISH i could design blocks and rads for a watercooling company, but how many people get that job? i'm a software developer and i work 9hrs a day and hardly have time to come home cook, watch some games, and spend time w/ the ol' lady.
Tools and Time, that's all a man needs nowadays.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by kaotic504

Tools and Time, that's all a man needs nowadays.

I hear that. I Have to travel for work and that takes me away from home for about 1/2 the year. When I am in town I have to work at the shop fabricating the stuff for the next road trip. I usually have the daughter on the weekends I am home. Leaves very little time to mess with this hobby or any other. My mill is 120 miles one way from me and I rarely see it anymore. Unfortunatly my PC are pretty much used for e-mail and web surfing anymore. Not a water cooled PC in the house anymore....

With the lack of good OC'ing CPU's and over powered hardware for current software I think the enthusiest crowd is dying off. I am not even interested in games anymore simply because they are "all the same". This years titles are upgraded versions of last years. Just boring.... bah....

[Etacovda]

I enjoy a few new games, but as you say - its not many. Theres been no games that ive been truely excited about for a long time now; they just dont have the appeal, and im pretty sure its not 'just me' - innovation there is being hit hard too.

I personally saw DIY as a chance to learn; I _really_ enjoyed making my blocks, but am at a stage where my newer designs need better tolerances than the tools that i currently have; id love to get into CNC.

I think you're right though, to a point - innovation in new products often beats what can be done at home; better products made to sell more cheaply than one can make for themselves.

For me, now, watercooling is a hobby and a noise reducer (if it didnt reduce noise as much as it did, it wouldnt be going near my pc) - theres not much need to get 'the fastest clock' anymore. I think A64 is possibly going to take away even more of the enthusiasts - there seems little need to watercool them.

My aim now is from a silent pc point of view - i want to have high performance without compromise to noise - i want my pc to be as fast as possible, whilst being near on impossible to tell if its on or not. Thats a harder aim.

Times are changing though, i think you're right.

[pHaestus]

As far as general interest in wcing goes, I think it's somewhat cyclical in nature. CPUs undergo die shrinks or new tech and are limited by something other than heat for a while. Then as the tech matures cooling them down begins to be the limiting factor again (or even from the start for things like Prescott or dual cores) and all the sudden everyone's into wcing.

I agree that DIY is a bit of a dying breed for CPU blocks, but I think we'll still see some new tricks from the DIYers. We used to see a ton of people making #rotor style wbs here in the forums; wonder how many just buy MCW600xs now? Price/performance begins to favor that block I think. But what about the mosfet coolers and PSU cooling and all the other zaniness we see from DIYers? I don't think any of that is going TOO mainstream.

For overclockers I think playing with chilled water is the way to go. There's just something fun about it that is hard to avoid once you start messing with it.

[Cathar]

Water-cooling has just matured, that's all.

When the first cars, aeroplanes, etc, etc, (you name it) were first introduced most everyone was a DIY and there were huge leaps and bounds made in technology and in making them better and more efficient.

Eventually though it gets to a point where, sure, even today someone can DIY up their own car and plane, but the modern day mass produced equivalent is going to be miles better than anything someone can whip up in their garage, unless the DIY person is both exceptionally skilled, has a LOT of time and money on their hands - which basically means the ability to match any of the production quality techniques being used in mass production, and then decides to NOT make the trade-offs of convenience that mass-production involves.

Now if one looks at the history of most any invention/technology, we can see exactly the same patterns with water-cooling. Sure, there are DIYists and hobbyists about, but generally the things that they can produce are of yester-year quality. Mass-production has moved on.

It's not a lost art - it's just progressed beyond the point whereby a hobbyist in a garage can easily produce something as effective as the better mass-produced items on the market, and so such items tend to be appreciated more for their sentimental value ("I built it with my own two hands!"), rather than on their technical merit.

[Jag]

Seems a recurrent issue, but still the focus seems to be only on the blocks.
Sure they capture the attenton of everybody, but the mainstream manufacturers have yet to come out with a single package that incorporates all the best features. So far we have (still) the G5 or even Koolance?
Now look at the various disclaimers that several manufacturers post, - sort of "do it at your own risk".
When you buy an electrical appliance does the vendor say that to you?
Would you accept it?

And it's not a question of having the right skills, because if you want to sell as much as you can, it has to be a simple, straightfoward product that even your grandmother can handle.

Water-cooling evolution/progress.
In the begining, very few DIYers, no organization. Then some of them become manufacturers, they evolve, but after a few years they too suffer from the ever more need to invest in R&D in order to achieve better products and that's very expensive.
Some derive into bling products, some make use of others DIYers ideas in order to get a cheap concept for their product, and others make revisions of a initial good concept.
But all are caught in the same net.
Now watercooling needs a new era, but this necessary leap will make the products expensive, and that will again introduce a new age of DIYers motivated by the recent advances in this industry that will try to make something different.

The dilemma is that taking this leap, in conjunction with the market share of watercooling and the present economic situation is risky.
Why are more and more manufacturers becoming distributors of watercooling products (pumps;radiators,etc) instead of tring to come out with something new?

[JSimmons]

Instead of lamenting the comoditization of watercooling, you guys should consider yourselves part of the group of founding fathers and explorers of the genre. You should be more proud than sad because you helped usher in a whole industry that people like me (not talented enough to actually contribute) could realize better cooling and more silent operation on their computers.

I'm sitting here enjoying an almost silent hi-powered compter for the first time in years because of people like you who did all the hard work. Many thanks to all involved.

[bobkoure]

Yup, a fairly normal progression.
I went though this with "sports" cars - where only the most dedicated (or well-to-do) could own/drive one (on most days - fix on the other ones). When I was in college the lament was "Jeez - even secretaries are driving sports cars now!".
Then motorcycles. Much cheaper than sports cars (well, the bikes I was into weren't much cheaper at all) but you needed to be a fairly good "wrench" to be able to fix things alongside the road - or needed to own / have a friend with / a pickup truck and not stray too far (no cell-phones then either) The Honda 750 in '69 (well maybe '71 as the first ones had some (chainwear) problems). No more shimming isolastic suspension bushings (Norton) or flipping your sprockets over ever 1K miles (Vincent), or replacing broken spokes (all of 'em - but mostly Ducati and Velocette). Yes, BMWs were reliable, but they were indeed "rubber cows" (German nick-name for 'em) and I hadn't yet experienced Guzzis.
Now anybody (pretty much) can walk into a motorcycle dealer's and buy a bike that will go, without problems, from coast to coast and back - or buy one that'll do quarter mile times that we only dreamt of.
Speaking of cell-phones - remember mobile short wave radio? That was a hobby that seems to have pretty much disappeared - at least where there's cell-phone reception.
And GPS - my Dad had a friend with a setup in his truck so he could move his LORAN rig from his boat to his truck and navigate by lat/long (I first saw the "rig" in '62 or '63).
Not to mention flash photography. Remember flashbulbs? As a side note I have the privilege of being the person who destroyed the very first portable xenon strobe flash unit (my Dad was friends with "Doc" Edgerton who developed it - and made ground breaking high speed photos you may have seen). I was four or five at the time - and it was the size if a "two suiter" suitcase. No bad intent on my part - I fiddled with switches and buttons and it made a very bad smell.
And lasers, and oscilloscopes (remember when they were big and heavy and cost more than a car?)

IMHO, this advancement in technology is pretty much a good thing (environmental effects to the side). As it becomes more accessible the early-on hobbyists lose that sense of exclusivity - but you can then buy things better/cheaper then you could before.
And... the things you learn and (IMHO more importantly) the way you learn to think about things will stay with you. Hobbies are good - even when they get "overtaken by events".

Oh - and as a side note, I wouldn't be surprised if system-cooling-design suddenly re-emerged as a hot issue when "Longhorn" appears. If it's like other major msoft "advances" it will be much more cycle/memory hungry and will encourage app developers to do the same - so you'll need an expensive (or overclocked) PC to run the things you want...

[Breach]

Like everything liquid cooling has gone mainstream. Gone are the days of car heater cores and modded aquarium pumps and horrible looking but functional DIY waterblocks for the most part. I remember when it used to be a black art, but now anyone can do it really.

I think this is just a slight recession because there isnt anything that new going on. Colder running CPUs dont take much to cool with most liquid systems easily handling the heat. But I think there will be another growth for advanced cooling once we start nearing the wall of cpu and gpu power when they will most likely be high powered and high heat.

Seems like phase change and TEC is becoming the new hot ticket, both are technically challenging and not something just anyone can do.

I hope no one gives up on thier designs though, the waterblock thread here has some of the coolest blocks around (no pun intended:-D), there is deffinatly skill required to make that caliber of block, and some of you have ones that look and work better than anything the majors have to offer.

DIY will always be the mark of a true enthusiast, and learning to make something with your own hands is always a challenge.

[Cyco-Dude]

for some people (like me), it is not feasable to build their own block. the blocks on the market are affordable, and perform.

that said, i had to figure out ways to mount my "heater core and modded aquarium pump". i made my own res and fan shroud (which looks and works great i must say). i only did these things because for me, there were no options. today, there are a lot more options, and it's no longer necessary for people to make their own stuff.

having a quiet computer is certainly a valid reason for watercooling. furthermore, there will always be a need (desire?) to overclock as long as there are new games or apps that benefit from having a faster CPU. although, is heat really holding overclocks back these days? hmm...

at any rate, watercooling is just plain cool. it will always be an enthusiast hobby until you start seeing PIB's that come with waterblocks instead of heatsinks.

[El]v[0IsEv1L]

I went Chilled Water and TEC a while back and have been enjoying the benefits.

Vapochill is boring to me. You get a machine that does vapour. With the TEC I can change tweak switch out different blocks etc it's just more fun.

[bigben2k]

I gotta go with Cyco-Dude; it's expanding.

I take a lesson here from business practice, which seems to fit well; as a new market evolves, it transitions from Development to Sustain. In other words, people are still DIY'ing their own blocks, but there aren't many more new people doing it. Those that did it quit, and they're promptly replaced by new people doing it. I doubt that it'll ever die, as there's always something to DIY, and there's still no standard water cooling solution out there.

JD: I think your issue is more personal; where are you going with this hobby?

[Breach]

Yeah I have the same problem, I would love to make my own blocks, but for that I need the tools, and to get the tools I need money.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

JD: I think your issue is more personal; where are you going with this hobby?

No where, that's the problem. Looking for ideas on what direction to go.... I have no spacific intrest in any one part of it. I just want to find one part of it that would be most useful for everyone here at ProCooling and stay on track with it. What part that is I am not sure.

What are people most interested in here?