Parts selection for "The Challange" rig?

[Blackeagle]

I've been quietly waiting to see what would be decided on.

Havn't seen any postings regarding the selection so far.

If I've missed it, please direct me to it, if not let's hear some ideas! Here's a couple items I'd suggest.

I'd like to see a really high flow/head pump used. So my suggestion there is the Iwaki MD20Z.

GPU block, I'd suggest the Fusion HL with the brass top & 1/2" barbs (of course).

NB a Swifty 159 air cooler.

Rad, I'd use the 2-342 chevy truck single pass core, but I've been seeing posts regarding some thinner ones. These thinner rads interest me, I hope several are nominated for use.

CPU block, Of the currant factory ones I'd go with the White Water or RBX. Interested to see what others would perfer here as well.

Fans 120mm H or M Panaflo? I'm also looking into some Sanyo 120mm ones suggested to me by Nikhsub1.

So how's about it guys? Let's hear some ideas!

[pHaestus]

Should there be a price limit? Should you wait for clearly defined judging criteria before putting together a rig? Not sure. I won't make recommendations, but I will tell you if I already have a part that you guys decide to use ok?

[BalefireX]

I was under the impression we were testing CPU WB only kits?

[BillA]

fan selection based on what ????

cluster fu*k ahead

anyone got a PLAN ?
define the godamn objective(s)
and if plural you're screwed

[bigben2k]

What's "The Challenge" rig?

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Should there be a price limit? Should you wait for clearly defined judging criteria before putting together a rig? Not sure. I won't make recommendations, but I will tell you if I already have a part that you guys decide to use ok?

From what I've ever read on prices, a price limit would need to be set with due regard to the disparity in pricing between US & EU. I'd suggest not setting one due to the wide range of prices on components. For one thing a heater core costs a heck of a lot less than made for puter rads tend to.

Clearly defined judging goals is a good idea. There were a number of areas disscussed such as noise, performance, costs ect. I thought I'd missed some info as I've looked around last 2 days without finding much new. Glad to see I havn't missed much.

And I well understand your position pH, as to parts available, some you may not have could be shipped to you on loan from members I'd hope. My Iwaki included if need be.

And it can't do any harm to start discussions on what the best choice of components would be to build a high flow performance rig all here can be proud of.

[BillA]

Blackeagle
where are 'we' going with this ?
best possible ? no, I don't think so at all

we should be proposing components in typical use today

understand: If you say 'best possible' I will provide a 6mm ID system which WILL defeat the garden hose
think positive displacement pump

[Cathar]

I'd be happy to assemble a kit as determined by the Australian audience:

http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...hreadid=290240

Given that, I'd source the following parts:

CPU block (still deciding )
Pump => MCP650
Radiator => VL Holden Commodore Heatercore (240x145mm core area, 24FPI, 30mm thick radiator) - fairly popular in Australia
Fans => 2 x Panaflo L1A's attached to a purpose built shroud.
Tubing => 1/2" ID

That's an enthusiast-influenced selection of parts, which may or may not be representative of what's more common throughout the country (i.e. cheap-assed kits), but probably more representative of the "high-flow" philosophy that the enthusiasts espouse, and which the low-flow proponents point at.

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by unregistered

fan selection based on what ????

cluster fu*k ahead

anyone got a PLAN ?
define the godamn objective(s)
and if plural you're screwed

Wow Bill, "cluster fu#k ahead", just because I ask about getting started on disscussion of possible parts to select for a very high performance rig?

"define the godamn objective(s)" OK, a good starting point, although one I thought was already settled.
Design of a high performance cooling rig with 1/2" ID lines. As noise and cost are also to be considered, a eye should be kept on keeping those as low as possible. But not at the expense of the primary goal of great cooling performance. This was what I took to be the ProCooling objective. Open to correction & modification of course. And yes the best system possible kicks cost in the head, just as a strong focus on noise isn't possible when maximum cooling is the primaray goal.

The major point of the "debate" in the threads both here and at Wizad.com was the claim they originally put forth that a top shelf small diamiter line & low noise rig could come within 2c or less of what a large line high performane rig without as much regard to noise could cool to. Noise control was brought up only when it was increasingly clear the low flow & low noise rigs had little hope of supporting the claimed 2c or less originally claimed. BUT low noise is a major reason behind many of the EU guys rigs.

I'm really not that concerned with "winning" the overall comparison. Frankly I'm much more interested in what it may be possible to learn, that can come out of such comparison tests.

Just how large will the differance in cooling performance be?
a) differance with CPU only in loop.
b) same with GPU block added, and temps for both CPU & GPU (if pH agrees to this).
c) Also of interest is the amount flow rates are affected in both designed cooling loops, when the GPU block is added.

How much louder is the low nosie rig? (I agree there is a large number of fans to pick from, I just tossed in a couple possiblitys.)

How much it costs for a top shelf rig of both designs? Even with price of a stron pump, I suspect the EU will have a problem here. Heater cores cost enough less to make up much of the cost differance in pumps.

And most of all, at least to me, what can be learned regarding a blending of the best points of both cooling designs?

Sorry if the way I worded my original post didn't come accross well. :shrug: I'm just interested in seeing a outcome of this latest debate on this topic. There have been several flame fests over this topic, and not just here, I've seen a couple elsewhere as well. Propper testing of well thought out set ups of both types may help lay it to rest.

[BillA]

sorry Blackeagle
when I saw "Iwaki" . . . . .
when I saw fans w/o the definition FIRST of the rad . . . .

Cathar's approach is perhaps better
don't fuss over 'best', go with popular - mainstream, stuff people are using
- and yes, mainstream may not be best

(if you all propose best, and it conflicts with my knowledge; what am I to do ?)

and you guys are skirting the noise issue - it will be your undoing
again


you have to make an informed choice about noise vs. performance
one
or the other
but not both, at all

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by unregistered

Blackeagle
where are 'we' going with this ?
best possible ? no, I don't think so at all

we should be proposing components in typical use today

understand: If you say 'best possible' I will provide a 6mm ID system which WILL defeat the garden hose
think positive displacement pump

Well Bill, I had in mind components, that while not all are in "typical use" by the average user, are in use by enough people to be considered as "acceptable" for less than the "garden hose" And it might be fun to see just what a positive displacement pump hooked up to 6mm lines would look like (stainless steel industrial high pressure lines Bill?).


Seriously Bill,

I started this thread to, I hoped, have a good disscussion regarding differant peoples ideas regarding what would make up a really top shelf cooling system. Not try'n to yank anybodys chain.:shrug:

Cathar,

Could you please post some pics of the rad you listed? IS it made of brass/copper or aluminum? Seems like a nice large face area for still thin. The sort of thing I was looking to see. Is this the "big arse" rad I've heard you mention in posts before?

Thanks

Ben,

Check the front page for the posting regarding a debate regarding low vs high flow designs. Might wish to read at both sites as well.

[Blackeagle]

Sorry Bill, should have just posted regarding a disscussion and let it go at that. Sure didn't want to get anybody stired up with it.

But Cathar's post makes referance to a rad I don't recall ever seeing. (I don't go to OCAU, wish they'd at least allow ya to read the site without signing on with your "real" e-mail addy. I hate spam, so I don't belong anywhere I can't use my Yahoo addy..)

If that rad is of copper/brass I'm very interested in it.

Exactly the sort of thing I"m hope'n for, just a chance to learn, pick up some new tips.

[Blackeagle]

Why only Delta fans on the graph Bill?

Where would a Panaflow M or H 38mm thick fan be on it? Easy to figure by cfm but I don't know how to locate them vs the Deltas on the C/W side.

Thanks

[Blackeagle]

Cathar,

By use of the L type Panaflow fans are you hope'n to crowd the EU guys on noise? How much would use of them vs the H or M models cost in temps?

And how loud is the new Swifty 650? You've got one already?

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Blackeagle

Cathar,

Could you please post some pics of the rad you listed? IS it made of brass/copper or aluminum? Seems like a nice large face area for still thin. The sort of thing I was looking to see. Is this the "big arse" rad I've heard you mention in posts before?

It's a brass/copper (really red-brass) radiator. Made again by Nippon-Denso, who have a huge factory here in Melbourne Australia, hence the popular availability of these core. The Australian car market is small enough that it's convenient for many car makers to source cores from one of the two major core makers - the other primary core manufacturer here being NatRad.

The "big arse" was a '87-'94 Toyota Camry core, who's core area was 220x145mm in size, but since the "discovery" of the VL/VN Commodore radiator people tend to use these core now as they more easily hold 2 x 12cm fans.

The Nippon-Denso cores are real quality gear, but I believe that they don't have a factory in North America, with the cores being imported, making them pretty expensive. Core prices in the USA are amazingly low compared to any-where else in the world - like really low. A typical car core over here costs in the order of US$50-60, unlike the US$15-20 that you guys pay.

The NatRad cores are also really nice. Visibly lower quality - but still very good stuff. NatRad cores tend to use much lower FPI's than the Denso cores, which does make them better for low pressure/low noise axial fans.

If I didn't go with a single Denso core as described, my second choice would be to go with 2 x NatRad "Ford Festiva" cores, aka, "Little Arse", which are really nice 14x14cm cores with 19FPI, and have really quite amazing cooling performance when coupled with low-speed fans - as in almost twice as good as a Black Ice Xtreme when coupled with any given fan.

Some pictures - Here's the Camry core - the Commodore core would be 2cm longer:



Scrubbed up BA just prior to painting:



Completed BA with fannage:



...and the "Little Arse"... (sitting next to the BA)...



...and a completed LA with shroud and fan...

[BillA]

Deltas on the shelf
that is a system C/W shown
you can roughly match them, actual performance unk 'till tested (fans do not test per their specs)

can't use a low pressure fan on a heater core, do better with a different rad
- does the graph not tell you that ?

you are not getting it, you (all) will have to decide:
1) the performance you want
or
2) the noise you will accept (eschewing max performance)

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Blackeagle

Cathar,

By use of the L type Panaflow fans are you hope'n to crowd the EU guys on noise? How much would use of them vs the H or M models cost in temps?

And how loud is the new Swifty 650? You've got one already?

The fan choice was as determined by the voters. If you read the thread I linked to, you'd see.

OCAU requires your real email address but I have never seen any spam as a result of being there. email addresses are never made visible, and spam robots can't get there because of the need to register. Kindof a self-protecting environment...

The game here is to match cooling performance with noise. Can't have it all though - can't have low-space, low-noise and high-performance. Doesn't work. Pick any two, but not all three.

The L1A's, as opposed to the H1's, would "cost" you about 0.5-1.0C on the radiator I proposed (depending on heat load), but would be at under half the noise level.

Using two of the Little Arse's with the L1A fans would quite likely exceed what the single BA with H1A fans on it could offer in terms of cooling performance.

I don't have the MCP650 yet - should be due to arrive any day now.

Not deliberately intending to "crowd" the EU group on noise - I just think that there's a bit of a misconception over there that somehow all "US/OZ" style systems are loud and noisy things. There's little point going to water-cooling if you're going to miss out on the noise benefits.

I get all my mega-overclocks that I post on various sites, at room temperatures, on a very quiet system.

e.g. http://www.employees.org/~slf/images/2924.gif

[Cathar]

Come now Bill, you're not the only one who "understands".

Originally Posted by unregistered

can't use a low pressure fan on a heater core, do better with a different rad
- does the graph not tell you that ?

You can - depends on the core. Not optimally suited at all for a 12x12cm core with a 12cm fan - ala Black Ice or ThermoChill. Can get away quite acceptably with a large faced square, thin, and lowish FPI core. Problem is that such are either not that common in the USA, or at the least, have been overlooked. Still not optimal for the super-low pressure Papst 4412FGL's, but for the Panaflo L1A's, quite an acceptable compromise.

Can do better by optimally matching a well-designed core design to specific fan, but given that people don't usually have those sorts of resources, choosing a thin 15x15cm (or thereabouts) core, as opposed to a fat 12x12cm core, and matching it to a non-piss-weak low-noise fan (ala 38mm fans as opposed to 25mm wimpy's) is about the most one can do.

[Blackeagle]

Items on hand are a good reason!

Yes I did get the curves message on the graf, but still wondered where the Panaflo would fall along the curve.

Just speaking for myself, I'd go for the strong performance. But very VERY glad to find a way, as Cathar is indicating, to have high performane at very modest noise. Not the MOST extreme performance perhaps, but very good. For myself and my use anyway.

Which leads to my next question. Does anyone know of a US heater core that compares well with the ones that Cathar has posted? I'm sorry to say I don't. Most US cores are thicker for one thing, and many of the newer & thinner ones are alum.

50-60$ while more than we pay for cores here Cathar is worth it for the much better configuration of the core when compared to any I know of here. You do very nice work on making up those rads to Cathar, very nice.

[BillA]

Blackeagle
ck the Thermochill article, some Panaflos and Pabst fans I think

Cathar
not implying only at all, but would like to see more people applying what is discussed

[Blackeagle]

I just took a count of fins on my 2-342 single pass core.

12 per inch. A much lower count, perhaps due to the fact the core is also 1 15/16" thick.

It's face is as large as the Commodore, even a bit wider (6 3/8"), but is close to 50mm thick compared to the 30mm of the Commodore. Yet the Commodore should have more actual dissipation surface due to double the fins per inch while it's also 3/5 the thickness + the added benifit of greater air flow.

As I'm sure you've had expericance with both Cathar, how much of a increase in air flow do you estimate the Commodore gives vs typical thick US style ones with a much lower fin count? And more important, how large is the improvement in cooling?

Thanks

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by unregistered

Blackeagle
ck the Thermochill article, some Panaflos and Pabst fans I think

Thanks Bill.

[Blackeagle]

Yeah,

OK, so Deltas go get you something in return for noise. Better than the Panflo for air flow......

[Cathar]

BE, no US-style cores over here in Australia - unless imported. Haven't used any at all. The "US" cores also look very strange to an Australian's eyes.

Here's an interesting picture which you may want to compare against:




Some fan PQ curves:

Panaflo

Delta AFB series

The WFB's that Bill used (I also had some) have been replaced by the AFB's.

The Panaflo L1A is fractionally weaker than the Delta AFB1212M, but apparantly a lot quieter. Delta's have a lot of "bearing" noise.

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by Blackeagle

I don't go to OCAU, wish they'd at least allow ya to read the site without signing on with your "real" e-mail addy. I hate spam, so I don't belong anywhere I can't use my Yahoo addy..

i wouldn't let that deter you - i've never had any spam on the address i use for OCAU.....