Apogee/Storm

[cougem]

Hey guys, I've been pretty much out of the watercooling loop, no pun intended, for quite a while (I bought a Storm G4 from Cathar but never got round to fitting it, haven't done much since).

Was just reading up and that new piece on the guy who did the integrated water cooling desk thing, he said the new Swiftech Apogee was very controversial. I remember seeing the Swifty site a while back, seemed to get some killer numbers, better than the storms, and Swifty also say they've improved that? Is my lovely G4 out-dated now then?

So what I'm asking basically is:
What is so controversial about the Apogee? It seems to have lovely flow rates and pretty good performance
How does the swifty storm compare to the original G4? It doesn't look as nice imo

Thanks guys!

[BillA]

search the site, old news
no need to revisit

[lowboy]

I'm kinda new around here but bill's idea sounds good. As your ? is like walking into a smoldering fire with an can of gasoline.

[flatline]

*covers self in "gasoline"*

what cpu will you be useing ?

that cpu come with an ihs?

if so will you be removeing the ihs? (this may not be pos with intel chips)

[bobo5195]

keep G4, save student load for beer (it is expensive cambridge after all).

[cougem]

Nah you got me wrong guys. I'm not going back into W/Cing, I'm just fascinated to see that Cathar's months of research into the G4 has been surpassed by a block that was kept pretty under-wraps and has had rather less coverage on review sites etc.
When you said check the site, is that because there's a massive flame war on the forums? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't see anything on the front page about it.

[bobo5195]

search for the apogee you will find it. The block doesnt perform better (strictly speaking, no flame wars) but i'll leave that for you to find out.

The better alternatives(g5 and g7) are not commonly mentioned as they cost mega bucks as they require complicated expenisve machining or are made of silver.

[cougem]

Oh great, only a 20 page long thread.

[Budwise]

the quick rundown:

IHS on=provides a numbing effect and all the blocks perform about the same

No IHS=Storm G4 is the clear winner, while the Apogee lags way behind

The Apogee is merely easier and cheaper for Swiftech to make. It is much less restrictive than the Storm though.

[BillA]

that is the idiot summary

[Budwise]

Bill, have you popped an IHS off of an A64 and tried both?

[BillA]

are you a professional working in the field of thermal mgmt ?
succinctly, you are not qualified to argue with me

not known = ignorant
not understood = stupid
refusal to understand = idiot

this is a dead subject for me, but as this is procooling I will attempt to describe things correctly

an idiotic post (I am referring to this one, mindless repetition to a deaf audience)
post as you wish, I've made my objection

[Budwise]

was just a question... I will end it here though as you seem to only want to call me an "idiot" simply because i am not a professional. Although resorting to namecalling isnt very representative of one.

[flatline]

billa has a problem with all at procooling dose nothing but insult ppl and try and blur whatever issue hes talking about to his own(used loosely) ends and not happy at that annoys all "pro's" that "used" to post hear and this is after he got a personal forum whitch he fils with shutch usefull posts as "quote of the day" (who dont billa like today?)

i can only sugest doing what he has done to me "put him on ignore" as the sight owner apears to tolarate his venom


goodday
flatline

[unreal]

Originally Posted by BillA

are you a professional working in the field of thermal mgmt ?
succinctly, you are not qualified to argue with me

not known = ignorant
not understood = stupid
refusal to understand = idiot

this is a dead subject for me, but as this is procooling I will attempt to describe things correctly

an idiotic post (I am referring to this one, mindless repetition to a deaf audience)
post as you wish, I've made my objection

Hmm, so can you answer cougems Q please?

[flatline]

i can try but the questions i asked have not been ansered so hear go's...

keep the storm

make shure you have a high preshure pump

enjoy yourself messing about with your pc cooling

try not to let it leek

[BillA]

model the source -> sink with resistors
change the sink
see what happens ? (and why some are idiots)

happy now guys ?
(this is really basic stuff, why be offended when you are called ignorant ? stop posting, google the subject, read)

[ricecrispi]

that is the idiot summary

id·i·ot n.
1. A foolish or stupid person.
2. A person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years and generally being unable to learn connected speech or guard against common dangers. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive.

I guess it would be the term.

IF it wasnt the term..... its the tone and context.

========================
are you a professional working in the field of thermal mgmt ?
succinctly, you are not qualified to argue with me

not known = ignorant
not understood = stupid
refusal to understand = idiot

this is a dead subject for me, but as this is procooling I will attempt to describe things correctly

an idiotic post (I am referring to this one, mindless repetition to a deaf audience)
post as you wish, I've made my objection

Hey BILL, with all that thermal managment experience I guess you cant give a brief summary for the guy?
or the layman shouldn't concern you.

[BillA]

??
see the post above yours

is it the moon ?

[Etacovda]

Originally Posted by BillA

model the source -> sink with resistors
change the sink
see what happens ? (and why some are idiots)

happy now guys ?
(this is really basic stuff, why be offended when you are called ignorant ? stop posting, google the subject, read)

"No IHS=Storm G4 is the clear winner, while the Apogee lags way behind"

Andddd systemcooling did 'model the source with resistors' (die sim), did they not?

Hes basing his quotes on the systemcooling review (which interestingly, can be found on google)?

[BillA]

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...1&postcount=12

first perhaps we can move to the same pg ?

no, thermal systems can be modeled with an electrical arrangement of resistors in place of the thermal resistances

I don't seem to be speaking to anyone here

[bobo5195]

To clarify.

I quite like budwise’s explanation, idiotic maybe but shooting for the lowest common denominator is often not a bad thing.

An apogee is a worse performing block than a storm however its worse performance is masked sufficiently by using a heat spreader. As a heat spreader is like a warm jacket keeping your processor toasty warm (relatively). For practical purposes it means that an apogee will give near equal die temps (the whole point after) as a storm with an I h s but this is not because it is good but because your I h s is bad.

The electrical analogy is often used for students to clarify thermal resistances. Think as an I h s, waterblocks and layers of thermal paste as an electrical resistor. The storm has a much lower electrical resistance than the apogee and the I h s has a big electrical resistance overall.

The electrical / thermal path looks like this:

I h s

Cpu electrical source – thermal paste – I h s – thermal paste – WB – rad - ground (watercooling rig)

No I h s

Cpu electrical source – thermal paste – wb – ground (watercooling rig)

If the I h s has a really big thermal resistance then it does not mater how good your wb / rad is because the overall resistance will be about the same like putting a 1 kilo ohm resistor in series with a 2 or 5 ohm resistor. You won’t notice if it’s a 2 or 5 ohm resistor as the 1 kilo ohm resistor is in the way.

[bigben2k]

No no no...

As Roscal demonstrated, the Apogee performs just as well as Storm, because their performance curves (c/w vs pressure drop) cross at a point that happens to match what you can expect from a typical pump. The blocks are not compared at the same flow rate, because the Storm is more restrictive.

Whenever someone gets to compare/review Storm vs Apogee at the same flow rates, then we'll have a clear demonstration that Storm is better. What pump would be used to achieve that flow rate (for Storm) is a whole other question...

Originally Posted by BillA

...not known = ignorant
not understood = stupid
refusal to understand = idiot...

Bill is a true scientist, and truly not a diplomat.

[BillA]

actually bobo is probably better at the science, but I have data
lol

EDIT
no Ben, cranky is from being old; most scientists I know are VERY nice people . . . .
well, some nuts among them

[Incoherent]

Originally Posted by bobo5195

To clarify.
. As a heat spreader is like a warm jacket keeping your processor toasty warm (relatively).

Not necessarily.
There are indications in my clumsy models that the IHS in some circumstances can actually improve performance. It depends almost entirely on the quality of TIM1, with the block design playing a part.
Meaning that in the case of a good quality TIM1 (Intel?) I can model a case where the Apogee could actually be superior to the Storm in terms of die temperature.
However I need emperical data to correctly model the blocks. I don't have either of these ones so I can't test them to get it, and so I am hesitant about posting anything.

Just a bit more fuel for the fire.