A challenge!

[pHaestus]

Yesterday I took the water cooling out of my Lian Li PC-50 and replaced it with a Zalman 7700CU heatsink. I did this so that I could leave that system running while I rebuilt my water cooling in a GTower Server case. But I noticed (the whole family noticed) that the system was roughly 100000x quieter with the Zalman than with my water cooling.

I don't normally high end + low noise air cooling and so I just haven't had a lot of experience with these coolers. But immediately it occurred to me that I am getting lower noise, better mobo/VRM cooling, and MUCH lower cost than any water cooling setup I've used. So then I began wondering:

"Is it possible to build a water cooling setup that outperforms a GOOD quiet heatsink at the same noise levels using commercial parts?"

Outperform is (relatively) easy but achieving that performance at really low noise levels is (let's be honest) not trivial.

I have an assload of water cooling parts in my basement AND a couple of cases to put them into. What parts would you choose? What suggestions on layout/design/etc would you make? Do you already have a system you think is clearly better than any air cooler and quieter too? List out the parts and design process and I'll compare them.

[9mmCensor]

"Is it possible to build a water cooling setup that outperforms a GOOD quiet heatsink at the same noise levels using commercial parts?"
Yes, but cost effective, no.

[pHaestus]

Then what is the advantage? I'm looking for a reason to continue to "sell" watercooling to quiet PC people. Is it ONLY passive wcing that could show them any advantages?

[Cathar]

What did you have in there before?

If you want quiet, go with an Eheim 1048, foam mounted in case, with the impeller modified as per BeerHunter's suggestion at OCF (can't find link at the moment). For DC pumps, the closest thing to quiet would be the Laing DDC, or perhaps even the Laing D5 dialled down to the #1/2 positions if you need 1/2" compatability. Again, foam mounting to prevent pump vibration is the largest single source of noise that generally occurs in most "quiet focuses" WC setups.

You want quiet for fans, you simply cannot go past the Yate-Loon's, which get rebadged as Nexus and sold with a resistor to slow them down to 1000rpm (1350rpm as stock). Quietest 12cm radiator fans about, period.

For mosfet cooling, I just have a "Wherever PCI Rack" installed in my case, and use a Yate-Loon spinning lazily to provide additional cooling to the mosfets, NB (passive) and memory.

[HammerSandwich]

Yes, definitely possible. I went from a Zalman 7000 at ~5V to a LRG4/DDC/HC setup. Fit the biggest core a Chenbro Genie could hold up front and used the case as a duct for the 120mm case fan. The WC gave lower noise levels and ~10C better temps on the CPU.

The machine's current config is not posted. I'm now running an Opteron 144 with the same WC, fanless mobo, a 9800Pro with AC VGA Silencer on low, the Seasonic modded with an L1A and a WD2500KS. The HD is by FAR my noisiest component, though I just got a Smartdrive 2002 enclosure, which should help.

My conversion to WC was 1.5 years ago, so today's best HSFs must put up a strong fight. A Ninja or XP-120 ducted to the case fan would be pretty hard to beat for noise and should provide plenty of cooling. For the money, air must be the better deal.

[jaydee]

Price vs. Performance? Air will win out.

If money is not an issue maybe?: http://www.overclockers.com/tips1235/index.asp

[Etacovda]

3 80mm fans is my entire systems airflow - hes got that JUST on the side of the case, theres no way that'll be quiet enough for anyone thats serious about pc noise reduction. Put it this way, my enermax 485 @ lowest is still too loud for me, at a reported 25db by SPCR. My new psu is 21db, I should have some serious trouble hearing that when it arrives.

building a quiet pc starts from the ground up, less fans the better. I agree with Cathar, 1048/1046 is the winner.

Personally, external setup, large (ie as big as possible) openflow radiator (couple of PA 120.3's, perhaps), 1046/1048, low flow blocks for as much as possible. Encase the lot with foam, and you'll have a quiet enough setup that'll beat out aircooling very easily. Obviously enough its all about radiator surface area, but you're limited when it comes to commerical stuff, assuming you're talking PC commerical, not truck radiator commerical.

If we were going seriously nuts, heatsink and waterblock as much as possible, and do a geothermal copper pipe dig with the pump buried with the copper. Cant get quieter than really.

That said, theres a few people who would call the 7700 loud, theres a few modding theirs to use nexus fans over at SPCR.

[jaydee]

I got my comp quiet enough. Can't hear it over games or vids or even the keyboard. I can sleep with it in the same room as well but it sure isn't silent by any standard.

Guess it depends on your own standards what you need to do.

[Rusty075]

Yeah, if you factor in cost or time as part of "performance" there's really no way WC'ing is going to compete with air cooling in terms of noise. Not now. A few years ago sure, but air cooler's performance has increased at a much faster rate than WC performance has. The delta is even bigger if you describe performance in terms of cooling/dBa.

Your 7700 isn't even all that great a HSF, compared to some of the newer models.

In order to beat the best aircoolers, a WC rig would have to have, at most, a single 120mm running at <7v, a completely silent pump, cost <$75 for the entire system, and be installable in less than half an hour. That's a tall, tall order.




But having said all that.....

If you're trying to cool a really high-end overclocked, overvolted Intel monster with a couple of fire-breathing SLi'd GPU's, then the balance probably shifts to WC'ing as the quieter option. Dumping all that heat out of a single rad with a couple of 120mm's beats any of the current air-cooled VGA options.

[bobo5195]

For single bits air cooling is going to win. But as a system as a whole water is doing pretty well. At the low end a dual core p4 needs watercooling and the costs will start offsetting each other. Any high end rig with SLi watercooling beings to look tempting as the costs are marginal. 4 Gpus putting out 300+Watts are easily water cooling territory.

I don’t know what all this hate for multiple fans is for. 2 fans make more noise but they double the amount of air that is being pushed as you can turn down the voltage. Whatever the scaling calculation is V^3/4 noise??? All that is needed is to use the fans well which a large rad and watercooling allows you to do.

Think a dual core p4 + water could take on a dual core a64 on air in the current market for noise and overall cost. With quick fit maybe even effort as well. Sli might swing it the p4 way even more.

[Colt357tw]

usually the noise comes from two area, the fan on that rad, and the pump.

thats why i been trying so hard running simulations, try to create WB design and rad designs with minimal pressure drop(high flow) and maximal cenvection(low thermal resistance) are pain in the butt, not to mention once CAE software start running , there is noway to play GRAW....

there is a typhoon coming, maybe i will just stick my rad outside the window and let mother nature cool it off for me....then again i would need to make a shade for it....

[pHaestus]

Right. So the only real solution to lower fan noise on the radiator and still have acceptable cooling is to oversize the rad more, choose the proper radiator design for low CFM airflow, and then undervolt quiet fans. This is known. I am assuming that a 2x120mm radiator is an absolute must, and a 3x120mm radiator would be preferred. Do you hit the crossover point where water is better than a top end 120mm fan heatsink at 2 or 3x120 rads? Do you hit the point where you cannot physically fit it in the case before this crossover point for performance?

I would also assume the radiator should be muffled by the case as much as possible to let some of the noise be dampened by the case. This probably precludes any hdd cages in the front of the case? Or else top mounted radiators? This will also require some airflow planning or else you'll hurt cooling by using warm case air for the rad intake. No biggie?

But the big thing from a noise standpoint is the pump. You guys must have very different experiences from me, because every pump I've ever used has made SOME noise. None of them have been silent, and almost all of them get progressively louder and "rattlier" (lol making up words) over time. And reservoirs add another noise issue: the gurgling of water to go along with the pump. I have a few pumps I guess are quieter than the average case fan, but none of them are really all that great. Ya I have an old Eheim 1048 too. I am assuming that custom boxes and mounting for dampening are also required along with the proper pump.

And the final consideration is the airflow around the socket area. I REALLY think the lack of surface motherboard cooling is a danger in wced systems. If you're adding a low noise 120mm fan to blow air into that area, then why not just use a low noise 120mm fan on a heatsink?

[TerraMex]

Ah, now i see. I was missing the point.
The lazy factor.

Me? Hobby to some extent.

[Cathar]

Water is/can be better than a top-end 120mm heatsink with a single 120mm radiator and a low-noise fan. The "cross-over" point moves about, of course, depending on the waterblock installed. You need at least a double-120mm rad, or something like the PA160, if you want to obtain a significant gain over top-end air though in the noise vs performance stakes. A triple-120mm rad just allows you to move further up the performance vs equal-noise curve at the expense of space consumed.

Pump noise is often largely affected by plumbing concerns. Pumps will get noisier/rattlier if they have to struggle to suck water into the intake. Very low flow resistance systems also makes for noisier pumps as many pumps will cavitate under low flow resistance scenarios, plus the impeller spins faster, equals more noise.

Definitely going for silence requires careful planning. I do think though that if you're having trouble getting your fans and pump to be quieter than most any hard drive's whine, then something is being done wrong. My disk drive is about the equal noisiest thing in my system aside from the low-speed PSU fan.

[Brians256]

OK, some notes from the weekend. I've complained that the D5 pump is too noisy for me, but I actually went out and did something about it. I bought a DDC.

Dang, but that makes a difference!

This particular system still isn't where I want it, but that is because I'm using an old Koolance case and their fans. Even on the low setting, the fans aren't quiet. The rad is a thicker BIX3 (I think that is the type, because there aren't any markings on it, and I have lost it's original box). Really, I think I could get a really quiet system if I wasn't running 3 80mm fans. I was to the point where I didn't think it was possible, but I am swinging the other way now.

Is it cost effective? No way! I just spent $90 for a pump! If I was building a new system, I would probably still go with air because I'm struggling to find time to do just about anything these days, and water systems really want maintenance. Still fun though.

[pHaestus]

I do think though that if you're having trouble getting your fans and pump to be quieter than most any hard drive's whine, then something is being done wrong.

Or you're using one of the many pumps we recommend for "good" performance in wced systems. Like you said the Eheim 1046 is the best bet if you really want quiet wcing, And probably undervolted Nexus fans? How many of our wb and radiator design threads and discussions operate under those parameters?

[Etacovda]

to anyone reading
Try a foam filled MDF box with holes for liquid and power lines, you'll be surprised at the difference. The bigger the box the better, assuming you keep it rigid.

I believe cathar w/cs with an MDF box, yes?

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Or you're using one of the many pumps we recommend for "good" performance in wced systems. Like you said the Eheim 1046 is the best bet if you really want quiet wcing, And probably undervolted Nexus fans? How many of our wb and radiator design threads and discussions operate under those parameters?

The entire Thermochill PA series of radiators, and the discussion threads on it, were designed around that mode of operation.

All my blocks, after the WhiteWater, were all designed with a careful eye on their performance starting from 2LPM, which is what is achievable with a CPU block, a GPU block, a large radiator, 3/8" tubing, and an Eheim 1046. Look at the flow vs performance curves, and then analyse the pressure drops, and you can see that this is so.

Been running near-silent systems myself for the last 2-3 years, and have spent a lot of time researching it. Sure, I never made a BIG stink and fuss about it because everyone was generally focusing on performance, but if you dig back through the threads you can see where I repeatedly made references to the importance and capabilities of the designs, both blocks, pumps and radiators, for low noise and low flow scenarios.

I, for one, welcome the gradual shift in focus towards this mode of operation. It's something that I've believed in, upheld, and designed for, for a long time now.

[HammerSandwich]

Originally Posted by Cathar

I, for one, welcome the gradual shift in focus towards this mode of operation.

What he said! If you're willing to gain noise for more performance, get phase-change.

Whether air or water, the quiet game eventually leads to how efficiently you can use the airflow. I'm thinking that most cases get this pretty darned wrong, but it probably doesn't much matter for normal use. Extremes of performance or noise may need something a bit different.

Cathar, I once wrote that radiators are pretty efficient at low CFM so you can't gain much without more air. Do you agree? It fits with the PA160's design approach.

[HammerSandwich]

Phaestus, I just posted a current description of my WC computer. It surely leans to the quiet side, but the performance ain't too bad at all. Find it at SPCR.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by HammerSandwich

Cathar, I once wrote that radiators are pretty efficient at low CFM so you can't gain much without more air. Do you agree? It fits with the PA160's design approach.

Yes, I agree, but with an explanation/example. The main issue with radiators is that they restrict airflow. Can stick a 100CFM 12cm fan on some densely finned 12cm radiator, and get 30CFM flowing through it, albeit at 99% efficiency. Alternately, can properly design your 12cm radiator, stick a 40CFM fan on it and get 35CFM through it, although at 85% efficiency.

Both will perform about the same, but one uses a fan that's 100x quieter (roughly need 100x40cfm fans to be as noisy as a single 100cfm fan) than the other.

The design of the PA radiator series took the above illustrative example to the extreme, and attempts to balance free-flowing air-flow before falling off an arbitrarily placed "knee" on the efficiency curve. The PA120 line I heavily optimised for 0-60CFM rated fans, with 30-45cfm being the main optimised sweet-spot. The best of the competing 12cm radiators that I measured started to achieve performance parity with around 90cfm rated fans, but many others did not "catch up" until 100-130cfm fannage. At this stage though, it really is just better to have a 120x2 radiator, rather than keep on ramping up fan speeds on a single 120x1 rad.

Being able to achieve a radiator C/W of around bang on 0.05c/w with a single shrouded blowing 45cfm/~22dBA fan on a PA120.1 means that you don't have to live with high noise to have decent radiator performance. Alternately, can use a 120.2, use two of those fans at 7v (for around a combined ~14dBA at a guess), and still enjoy <0.04c/w performance. Run them both at 5v and still get ~0.05c/w cooling performance on a 120.2. If you can hear them (Yate-Loon) at 5v at more than 10cm distance in the middle of the night you're a better man than I, power supplies hum louder than the fans run at.

Disk drives whine at around 20-25dBA.

Combining a PA120.2 with some 7v Yate-Loon's, and an Eheim 1046, with a block that makes good use of it, and for <20dBA can get to within 2-4C of the same CPU temps as your loudest highest performing water-cooling setup.

Noise? Who needs noise?

[Etacovda]

Originally Posted by Cathar

Noise? Who needs noise?

Indeed, those who use noisy watercooling are robbing themselves of sanity.

You constantly hear 'but my pc noise doesnt worry me!' - Ive silenced a few peoples computers for them, and they cant IMAGINE going back to a noisy pc again. Moderate to high levels of computer noise has been proven to be bad for you, if im not mistaken (i really cant be arsed looking it up, but im certain that theres a fair few papers on workstation ergonomics and and noise).

A quiet computer is SO much more enjoyable to use.

[pHaestus]

Cathar you truly are a visionary. I always remembered your espousal of the Iwaki and then later the D4 pump with a bit of extra voltage. Must've missed the fact you were always actually the sole champion of silent PC cooling as well.

So will a BI Pro2 do, or MUST I purchase (internationally) a thermochill radiator?
The Storm G4 would be the only commercially available waterblock to provide substantially better performance than air? Eheim 1046 only suitable pump, or would the DDC do (mine is an ooold prototype? What about a 1048? If you expect the BI Pro2, 1048, and Storm G4 to all outperform my 7700 Cu by a large margin at the same noise level then I'll set that system up.

Since you guys have such modest (1x120mm fan, small pump) setups, could you post pictures of the completed wced box so we can see how unobtrusive/neat it is too?

[Dgephri]

I have learned tons by reading here over the years...and finally went with a 2X120mm radiator in my latest build:



That is the preliminary fill/leak test, and then I did some more modding and wiring to finish it:



I never got to purchase the real premium low rpm fans, but with two Vantec Stealth on the Radiator, pull only, no shroud, its very quiet.

I put the DD-D5 pump down below on the bottom level, behind the opticals and next to the PSU. The first week had some whooshing sounds as the microbubbles worked out, but now I can't hear any pump sounds.

I think pump placement is part of it, mounting (on industrial velcro), and I could probably help it even more with some rubber feet on my case.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Cathar you truly are a visionary. I always remembered your espousal of the Iwaki and then later the D4 pump with a bit of extra voltage. Must've missed the fact you were always actually the sole champion of silent PC cooling as well.

Hey, hey, mind the sarcasm. I'm slipping over on it here. Seriously though, silence/quiet was ALWAYS a focus of anything I wrote about when it came to pumps/radiators/fans. Go back and read my posts. How often did I mention that noise level was an important factor? I never openly championed silent computing to the level of the SPCR guys, except for maybe when it came to the PA radiator design discussions, but I certainly kept it at the forefront of my work.

So will a BI Pro2 do, or MUST I purchase (internationally) a thermochill radiator?
The Storm G4 would be the only commercially available waterblock to provide substantially better performance than air? Eheim 1046 only suitable pump, or would the DDC do (mine is an ooold prototype? What about a 1048? If you expect the BI Pro2, 1048, and Storm G4 to all outperform my 7700 Cu by a large margin at the same noise level then I'll set that system up.

A Thermochill PA120.2, a Swiftech MCR220QP, or a HWLabs BIP2, listed in decreasing order of suitability, will all serve satisfactorily. Above all else, you want the Yate-Loon 12cm fans. Nothing else really comes close. Ideally wire them to a non-PWM fan controller.

Either a 1046/1048 will do. Depending on who you talk to, some say the 1048 is quieter, others disagree. The 1048, if you stop it from vibrating against anything which is the real trick, will do it all for you. If you MUST go with a DC pump, then the Laing DDC will do it, or if you're willing to chance Lady Luck and hope that you get a good one, the DTek MAG pumps are potentially quieter, again, only IF you luck out and get a good one.

As for a waterblock, the MCW6000 is fine, as would be an Apogee, or of course the Storm/G4. I believe that you have a G5 there, and that would be the better choice. Take a look at your own flow/performance tests for blocks you've reviewed for the 2-4LPM range. All the information you need is there.

Since you guys have such modest (1x120mm fan, small pump) setups, could you post pictures of the completed wced box so we can see how unobtrusive/neat it is too?

I pulled my last in-case system apart to salvage the pump/block, but it had the 12cm radiator in the lower-front of a midi-tower case (8"x16"x20"), a Laing DDC sitting below the PCI area, 3/8" ID tubing, and of course a G5 sitting on the CPU, all done as a fully sealed closed loop (submerged the w/b while bleeding). Didn't take any pictures of it, but I assure you it was small, neat, fitted in the smallish case with room to spare, and above all, quiet.