Rio Pumps: Obvious design flaws...

MeltMan · 02-17-2002, 04:46 PM

I just bought a Rio1400 because it was cheap. I know about rio's being notorious for crapping out when you need them most. Upon opening the package I wasnt too impressed. The pump worked, but made that grindey sound under load. So... I glued the impeller. This did help the noise, but it also created new problems. After gluing the impeller, the pump had a very difficult time starting up. Instead of pumping, it would kinda vibrate. Maybe I glued the impeller in just the wrong spot to where the water created enough back pressure to keep the impeller from hitting its next "phase". So instead it just vibrated back and forth. I was able to un-glue it. Heres what I think gives these pumps a bad rap:

1. The impeller assembly is cheap
2. The impeller itself is NOT balanced at all, causing vibration
3. Lack of threaded inlet and outlet stock

I think the major cause of the failure of these pumps is the terribly unbalanced impeller. I hyphothesize that since these pumps are shelled out as fast as they can be, some of the pumps come out of the factory more balanced than others. I think DigitalChaos ended up with a well balanced pump. Mine needs work.

Plans to fix
1. put impeller into drill press and balance it. (the unbalanced part is the orange paddle, especially at the bottom of it)
2. Glue threaded ends onto the pump.

I think these pumps can be made very reliable and long lasting with a little work.

Input?

DigitalChaos · 02-17-2002, 06:59 PM

the rio i had must have been pretty balanced like ya said... but just for the hell of it i tried gluing the impeller together with some goop (so i could take off the glue if it didnt work)
when i turned on the pump i got loud ass grinding noises... and no water, so i took off the glue and it works fine

the balancing issue brings up a good idea though

mkosem · 02-17-2002, 11:27 PM

rios are inconsistant. I've had a couple rio 180's work fine, but none of my 200's or 400's lasted more than a month of continuous WC usage.

--Matt

ambient · 02-18-2002, 10:09 PM

I have never used a RIO in a watercooling setup. But I can say that they do last. My little bro works for a fish store. They have all kinds of pumps, he says its not to often that RIOs come back and he also says they sell those pumps the most. I have 4 rios running in my salt water aquarium right now, 2x200 a 2100 and a 3100. They've been runnin in my tank non stop for 3 years everday since I got the tank. Maybe the pumps some people are getting are refurbished? Or maybe it could be back pressure that the RIOs can't stand. I know my danner makes a lot of noise if there is air in it.

WebMasta33 · 02-18-2002, 10:18 PM

Like you said...

Quote:

They've been runnin in my tank non stop for 3 years everday since I got the tank

These pumps are NOT designed to start/stop alot. They are built to basically start a few times, and then continously run. If you want a pump that is built to stop/start alot. Get a small pump for a car's cooling system. But I doubt that will be very quiet.
:shrug:

MeltMan · 02-18-2002, 10:47 PM

car pump- true, good for starting and stopping, but for the price? Plus the car pump would be DC and would draw off of your psu.

Brad · 02-19-2002, 12:30 AM

I can't see too much of a reason why back pressue would stuff it up, although turning it on and off constantly is a viable reason.

Can you talk to your brother about care for them ambient?

UnaClocker · 02-19-2002, 01:57 AM

Back pressure does make a pump louder.. As does air.. And I agree about the starting and stopping thing. I built my mother that watercooled system (MicroStealth) last mother's day with a Rio 180, did the same for a friend last summer. They both run their systems 24/7 day in and day out, and both of their pumps are happy as ever without a hickup. (Haven't changed the water in either one yet either, and they're both running aluminum/copper combined..

)

Cyco-Dude · 02-19-2002, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MeltMan
car pump- true, good for starting and stopping, but for the price? Plus the car pump would be DC and would draw off of your psu.

water pumps for cars typically run off of the drive belt or timing belt depending on the car; i see no practical way of making one work for a WC setup...

ambient · 02-19-2002, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Can you talk to your brother about care for them ambient?

I will talk to him later today and see if he will post a little thing about pump care

decodeddiesel · 02-19-2002, 10:36 AM

well, I'm sticking with my Eheim, and recomending nothing but Eheims and Danners to everyone who asks. It only took one failure to show me the quality and reliability of RIOs.

MeltMan · 02-20-2002, 09:21 PM

yeah, i hear ya, but im taking my chances with my athlon 700

I still need to build a hold down for the homeymade waterblock. Then its gonna be all good.

Pyrotechnic · 02-20-2002, 10:41 PM

only problem with tbirds is i see that they often take the board with them when they fry.....

Brad · 02-21-2002, 12:28 AM

use neoprene or some other insulator

decodeddiesel · 02-21-2002, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrotechnic
only problem with tbirds is i see that they often take the board with them when they fry.....

True, I think it often depends how fast the bird toasted. If it was due to a pump failure or fan failure with aircooling then the risk of damage to your mother board is far greater than when the chip is "exposed" without a heatsink and goes up in the stated 7 seconds.

Jim · 02-21-2002, 04:32 PM

It was recommended to me by lots of guys here and elsewhere to get the Eheim. I did works fine, nice and quiet and solid too.

But regardless, the Eheim can fail as well, $@*t happens.

I use MBM in conjunction with "Shutdown Now". I have the high CPU temp alarm set at 43C.

Just for the heck of it I unplugged my water pump and it took 1 minute for the temp to rise from 33c to 44c and begin the shutdown process. Quicker than I expected!

I think the program was well worth the $30.00. Just the time savings alone of having to take it all apart and replace the chip is well worth the cost.

Now all I need is a leak detection shutdown program!

Jim

Brad · 02-22-2002, 02:38 AM

get a little IR pointer thingee, at the top of the res (which is the highest part in the system) when water covers it, the beam will be diffused so much to give a negative result at the receiver. When there is no water there, there will be no diffusion, so the receiver will get the beam and return a positive result

Jim · 02-22-2002, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brad
get a little IR pointer thingee, at the top of the res (which is the highest part in the system) when water covers it, the beam will be diffused so much to give a negative result at the receiver. When there is no water there, there will be no diffusion, so the receiver will get the beam and return a positive result

AH hah! So there is a way. I need to find more info on this.

Jim

MeltMan · 02-22-2002, 08:23 AM

Ah! Ive seen a working example of this. In the sport of paintball there is a hopper for the guns that has the IR detector to spin a paddle to feed the balls faster. Its called the VL Revolution. The circuts on them seem to be fairly simple. If I have time I'll try and copy them down to a schematic form.

futRtrubL · 02-22-2002, 01:25 PM

Why go to the trouble of using IR beams etc. A simple float switch would work just as well with less power consumption and complexity. And with simplicity comes reliability.

Edward

Brad · 02-22-2002, 03:16 PM

yeah, like in a toilet, or water trough

Jim · 02-22-2002, 03:27 PM

How am I going to install a float switch without a reservoir?

Jim

Brad · 02-22-2002, 03:34 PM

either IR or float would be fairly hard without resivoir....

EMC2 · 02-22-2002, 10:53 PM

Without a res, you could still do the IR by putting it on the bleed tube.

Or you could make a capacitive sensor.

02-17-2002, 04:46 PM	#1
MeltMan Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: KS Posts: 374	Rio Pumps: Obvious design flaws... I just bought a Rio1400 because it was cheap. I know about rio's being notorious for crapping out when you need them most. Upon opening the package I wasnt too impressed. The pump worked, but made that grindey sound under load. So... I glued the impeller. This did help the noise, but it also created new problems. After gluing the impeller, the pump had a very difficult time starting up. Instead of pumping, it would kinda vibrate. Maybe I glued the impeller in just the wrong spot to where the water created enough back pressure to keep the impeller from hitting its next "phase". So instead it just vibrated back and forth. I was able to un-glue it. Heres what I think gives these pumps a bad rap: 1. The impeller assembly is cheap 2. The impeller itself is NOT balanced at all, causing vibration 3. Lack of threaded inlet and outlet stock I think the major cause of the failure of these pumps is the terribly unbalanced impeller. I hyphothesize that since these pumps are shelled out as fast as they can be, some of the pumps come out of the factory more balanced than others. I think DigitalChaos ended up with a well balanced pump. Mine needs work. Plans to fix 1. put impeller into drill press and balance it. (the unbalanced part is the orange paddle, especially at the bottom of it) 2. Glue threaded ends onto the pump. I think these pumps can be made very reliable and long lasting with a little work. Input? __________________ MeltMan Lurker Supreme!

02-17-2002, 11:27 PM	#3
mkosem Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2001 Location: here Posts: 494	rios are inconsistant. I've had a couple rio 180's work fine, but none of my 200's or 400's lasted more than a month of continuous WC usage. --Matt __________________ If you can't cool it, blow it up!! http://www.mattkosem.com

02-18-2002, 10:09 PM	#4
ambient Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 312	I have never used a RIO in a watercooling setup. But I can say that they do last. My little bro works for a fish store. They have all kinds of pumps, he says its not to often that RIOs come back and he also says they sell those pumps the most. I have 4 rios running in my salt water aquarium right now, 2x200 a 2100 and a 3100. They've been runnin in my tank non stop for 3 years everday since I got the tank. Maybe the pumps some people are getting are refurbished? Or maybe it could be back pressure that the RIOs can't stand. I know my danner makes a lot of noise if there is air in it. __________________ water cooled 1.4 tbird @ 1580 143x11 vcore 1.88 vio 3.55

02-18-2002, 10:47 PM	#6
MeltMan Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: KS Posts: 374	car pump- true, good for starting and stopping, but for the price? Plus the car pump would be DC and would draw off of your psu. __________________ MeltMan Lurker Supreme!

02-19-2002, 12:30 AM	#7
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	I can't see too much of a reason why back pressue would stuff it up, although turning it on and off constantly is a viable reason. Can you talk to your brother about care for them ambient? __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

02-17-2002, 06:59 PM	#2
DigitalChaos Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waukesha, Wi Posts: 698	the rio i had must have been pretty balanced like ya said... but just for the hell of it i tried gluing the impeller together with some goop (so i could take off the glue if it didnt work) when i turned on the pump i got loud ass grinding noises... and no water, so i took off the glue and it works fine the balancing issue brings up a good idea though

02-19-2002, 01:57 AM	#8
UnaClocker Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Bremerton, WA Posts: 514	Back pressure does make a pump louder.. As does air.. And I agree about the starting and stopping thing. I built my mother that watercooled system (MicroStealth) last mother's day with a Rio 180, did the same for a friend last summer. They both run their systems 24/7 day in and day out, and both of their pumps are happy as ever without a hickup. (Haven't changed the water in either one yet either, and they're both running aluminum/copper combined.. ) __________________ The UnaClocker Watercooler Extraordinaire! Overclock till it goes BOOM!

02-19-2002, 10:36 AM	#11
decodeddiesel Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: classified Posts: 534	well, I'm sticking with my Eheim, and recomending nothing but Eheims and Danners to everyone who asks. It only took one failure to show me the quality and reliability of RIOs. __________________ ...i hurt... do me a favor, disconect me... they can re-work me but i'll never be top of the line again ...i'd rather be nothing...

02-20-2002, 09:21 PM	#12
MeltMan Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: KS Posts: 374	yeah, i hear ya, but im taking my chances with my athlon 700 I still need to build a hold down for the homeymade waterblock. Then its gonna be all good. __________________ MeltMan Lurker Supreme!

02-20-2002, 10:41 PM	#13
Pyrotechnic Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 240	only problem with tbirds is i see that they often take the board with them when they fry.....

02-21-2002, 12:28 AM	#14
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	use neoprene or some other insulator __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

02-21-2002, 04:32 PM	#16
Jim Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 389	It was recommended to me by lots of guys here and elsewhere to get the Eheim. I did works fine, nice and quiet and solid too. But regardless, the Eheim can fail as well, $@*t happens. I use MBM in conjunction with "Shutdown Now". I have the high CPU temp alarm set at 43C. Just for the heck of it I unplugged my water pump and it took 1 minute for the temp to rise from 33c to 44c and begin the shutdown process. Quicker than I expected! I think the program was well worth the $30.00. Just the time savings alone of having to take it all apart and replace the chip is well worth the cost. Now all I need is a leak detection shutdown program! Jim

02-22-2002, 02:38 AM	#17
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	get a little IR pointer thingee, at the top of the res (which is the highest part in the system) when water covers it, the beam will be diffused so much to give a negative result at the receiver. When there is no water there, there will be no diffusion, so the receiver will get the beam and return a positive result __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

02-22-2002, 08:23 AM	#19
MeltMan Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: KS Posts: 374	Ah! Ive seen a working example of this. In the sport of paintball there is a hopper for the guns that has the IR detector to spin a paddle to feed the balls faster. Its called the VL Revolution. The circuts on them seem to be fairly simple. If I have time I'll try and copy them down to a schematic form. __________________ MeltMan Lurker Supreme!

02-22-2002, 01:25 PM	#20
futRtrubL Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Kingston, Jamaica Posts: 204	Why go to the trouble of using IR beams etc. A simple float switch would work just as well with less power consumption and complexity. And with simplicity comes reliability. Edward

02-22-2002, 03:16 PM	#21
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	yeah, like in a toilet, or water trough __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

02-22-2002, 03:27 PM	#22
Jim Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 389	How am I going to install a float switch without a reservoir? Jim

02-22-2002, 03:34 PM	#23
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	either IR or float would be fairly hard without resivoir.... __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

02-22-2002, 10:53 PM	#24
EMC2 Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dark Side of the Moon Posts: 365	Without a res, you could still do the IR by putting it on the bleed tube. Or you could make a capacitive sensor.

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