3 Way Water Cooling

[Anomaly2181]

Hey I have learned quite alot from reading 100's of post on the forum, and I would like to say thanks. I do have a general water cooling question though.....

Without the use of a peltier and using water cooling alone, would it be more advantageous to do a 3 way WB cooling(CPU, Graphics Card, the onboard chip (the via kt333for example)), or just use 2 water blocks(1 on the CPU and 1 on the onboard mobo chip), then use a crystal orb with ram heat sinks on the graphics card.

The setup I'm looking at is a XP 1800(or whatever XP chip I can watercool and OC to the most extreme) on either the Epox 8k3a+,asus a7v333, or the gigabyte ga-7vrxp. The epox is the all around best overclocker as far as i can tell from the reviews, but it doesnt have a 1/5 agp pci divider for extremely high fsb's to still suppost using your graphics card without problems. If anyone knows a sweet board with complete bios control over overclcoking let me know, I would be really greatful. I figure why spend 200 plus dollars on a sweet water cooling setup, if you aren't going to overclock to the extreme? Right : )

Ram: Mushkin 512 PC2100 DDR 'level 2' cas 222. The mushkin 2100 is supposedly overclockable to nearly 3100 on a good mobo. I am curious if there is a single stick of 1024mb cas 222 DDR ram available. That way I wouldn't have to slow down the speed with 2 sticks of 512.

I have my eye on the alluminum Lian-Li Pc_65 with the side window, figure if I'm going to build a pimp setup I might as well go with the best. I am open to other case suggestions, but I do like that case alot.

but back on the water cooling topic.......

I'm thinking it would be quite hard to disapate 3 intense heat sources with just a radiator such as the blackice extreme even. But, I want some opinions and suggestions of possible equipment, and setup if you feel inclined. I'm not inclined to put in a TEC or pelt because of all the heat they disapate, and all the problems I have read people having after adding them with rising case temps.

I was looking at the spir@l 3 water block along with the maze 3...i liked the spir@l though because it pumps the coolest water into the center where the most heat is, and then the danger den GPU GeForce4 WB.
So first set up would include a water block on the
1) CPU 2) GPU and 3) mobo Chipset

Then while writing this I thought what the hey...why not see if its possible to effectivly cool 4 devices with water alone.... a water block on 1) CPU 2) GPU 3) mobo Chipset and 4) the hard drive(s) the (s) plural is for a possible raid setup.

As for the radiator, I was looking at the Blackice Pro extreme supplied by danger den as well.....let me know if this is a bad one or if there are some that are better.

The pump I'm unsure of....I have read conflicting things....higher power is not nessasarily better for it can cause over pressurization in the system, but I'm worried about getting enough water per sec past the WB's to properly cool. I notice most people use enheims though.

Tubing I would probably go with 1/2' silicon, I'm looking for durability/reliability most. Let me know if there there is another good tubing. It sounds like you don't want any 90 degree bends either otherwise you kill the flow rate. But this lead me to think....well... a radiator is esentially a few hunded 90 degree turns wrapped into a coil to allow maximum exposure to ambient temp air....so won't any radiator basically kill flow, and create massive back pressure on the pump?

The resevoir I'm totally unsure of, obviously I don't ever want any leaks, it is also nice to be able to see into the resevoir to see how far to fill it...and guesstomate current waterlevels. So...... ie transparent or translucent.

And as far as an airtrap goes, I'm still reading up on how to make one, so far I know its a pretty simple self made device with an in and an out that is placed above the rest of your cooling system to trap rising air.


The final rig would have a nice acrylic light or 2 for effect : )
Trust me I will build this system, I have money coming in. Although the system might be built in installments in order to keep money for food (the stuff that keeps us humans alive) : )

Any opionions are welcome. Thanks

[SonixOS]

If i'm being cheap, i'd do the vid card and processor only. But the northbridge does help. I'd buy (which I did) Corsair XMS3200 from newegg which is cheaper than the Mushkin and rated at much higher than what ur board supports (I assume ur using a pc2100 board). So overclocking the ram would really be underclocking . I bought it cuz i wanted to keep it for a while. I sort of regret it. I should have gotten just the PC2700 not go all the way up to 3200. If you are watercooling, who cares about case temps? I really dont. I would not have more than one radiator in my system cuz it sux0rz and it slows the down the wauta significantly. I just skimmed through ur post cuz i dont feel like reading it all . U should have cut down straight to the questions and not say much about the stuff that ppl usually do. At least, I'm not that interested.

[Anomaly2181]

Well here's the gist if you don't want to read it.

I was wondering if it is possible to extreme overclock if you are running more than 2 water blocks...1 to the cpu one to the GPU and 1 to the Mobo chip. (this is without a tec unit of anykind) It seems like alot of heat would be generated, and put into the water system....and i didn't mean to imply that im worried about case temp much....im worried about the chip temps.

---if anyone is running more than 2 WB's and is able to OC an XP processor and their graphics card well, could use your input. I'm aiming to get around a 30-40% frequency increase...like from 1.5Ghz to 1.9Ghz. More if I can.......


I also asked for alot of suggestions, but I don't want to re-list many, but here a few.....what motherboard has the 1/5 agp pci divider and is completely overclockable via the BIOS...no jumpers...

Also asked for suggestions on parts:
the resevoir-mainly a tightly sealed non leaking clear one
a pump which will maximize flow vs. pressure for any paticular setup u might suggest......and basically anything else you feel like answering......I have all the questions in the first post.

[Anomaly2181]

Also, I don't know any boards with the complete BIOS OC'ing that support 3200 ddr.....the boards I listed support up to 2700. I'm not sure I follow what you mean by I would be under clocking the ram if it was 2100 either.

[ECUPirate]

b4 you jump into this, you should know that XPs don't OC very well. They also generate lots of heat, and have a rather fragile core. (I've never broken one, but lots of folks have.) If you want the BEST performance (& still have $ left over....), get a P4 1.8A chip and either an 845E or G chipset w/ the Corsair 3200 memory, or an 850(or E) chipset w/ Samsung pc800 256mb 16 device x 2 or Kingston 1066 (not sure about device count).
The abit TH7IIR seems to be the favorite P4 board right now (I have one now w/ the samsung 800 and a 2.2A). visit http://www.hardforums.com/ and check out the Strictly Intel or Strictly AMD sections. (don't slap me everyone... those 2 forums have good info. )

oh... w/ the TH7IIR, you can lock the PCI/AGP bus so that OCing does not affect you PCI slots, and you can change the multiplier on the RDRAM from 4x to 3x.

Ditto on what SonixOS said, the CPU and GPU are most important to WC. Adding a second or third block won't make a noticeable difference in water temps, so long as u have a decent radiator. The benifit of being able to OC your GPU w/o heat will far outweigh any potential 10-20 mhz loss on you OC of you CPU.

It is possible to cool 4 devices w/o problems. I personally don't think super high flow rates are that big a deal. As long as there is sufficient water moving through all of your blocks, your temps will be very acceptable, and OCing won't make a huge difference in temps, unlike w/ air cooling. 1-3C is not that big a deal. I'd rather have everything watercooled, eliminating most fans and keeping the noise down, than having 2C lower on my CPU. Your temps will be about 20C lower w/ water cooling anyway.

Pumps: I have the Eheim 1250. I also have LOTS (10-12ft) of hose (1/2" and 5/8"), and my flow rates are crap. My temps are still good. If you want lots of blocks, get the 1250. If you don't, and if your pump will be INSIDE your case (less hose), get the 1048. (Don't bother w/ the 1046.)

Hose: 1/2" is good. Get tygon if you can afford it. Silicon is porous and the water wetter bleeds through. It doesn't leak, mind you, but your room will smell like antifreeze. Vinyl is crap... unless you find suitable reinforced vinyl, or something.

Radiator: go to Autozone and pick out a heater core that's the size you're looking for. Cost about $20-25. Refer to http://www.heatercore4u.com to see pics of lots of different cores. Find one that matches the size you want (pay attention to the inlet/outlet... some have two 5/8" openings, which is fine. 1/2" silicon will fit over 5/8" fittings, no prob.) Write down the make of the car it's supposed to fit and go the the auto store. Chevy Chevette and various Chevy & Ford cores seem to be popular.

Resevoir... = airtrap. same thing. I'm using a plastic peanut container w/ barbs gooped into the side and top. = Free.


...but seriously, go with Intel. those chips are practically indestructible. I lapped mine down to the copper ....

[Anomaly2181]

Hey thanks for all the info ECUPirate. The main reason I was gearing more torwards an XP chip were because I have never had anything but intel, and I was going to try and super overclock the XP if I could.
The info about the intel mobo's was really interesting... I like how u can lock the agp/pci divider, do you know of an Xp board that can do that as well? Looking at thousands of XP benches, it looks like the Epox board is the best for overclocking, although it lacks the agp/pci divider lock.
Point well taken about only losing 20-30 mhz in CPU oc'ing and gain massive GPU benifits.

I was planning on putting the pump in the case...the whole system will be self contained.....Are you sure the enheim 1048 pump would pump enough water around?...its rated at like 158gph.

I'm going to check out your posted links in a few minutes.

BTW that is a sweet water rig you got

[ECUPirate]

glad u like it..

I thought alot of the epox boards had the lock... the P4 board does, I think.

My last 2 rigs were AMD.... all intel b4 that.

Last year, AMD was the best choice for price/performance. Right now, it's all intel. No question. (i'm not a fanboy, I just buy the best at the time...) RDRAM is the best, even at stock speed... but DDR is making a good showing too. There are a LOT of solid mobo options for P4 & DDR, many more choices than for RDRAM. ...and it's cheaper... but I got RDRAM. note; you should have a fan blowing over the RDRAM, as it gets EXTREMELY hot. It will burn the piss out of you. I have a 120mm low speed fan in the side of the case, blowing over the northbridge, the AGP ram, and the RDRAM. DDR doesn't get that hot.


If you want to have more than say, 2 block, you may really want to consider the 1250. Just know that the 1250 is a rather large pump... check the specs on http://www.eheim.com/


If you're deadset on AMD, go for it, but you know what I think... I doubt anyone else w/ an objective opinion would dispute this either. oh... intel seems to be more stable, but your mileage may vary.

[Anomaly2181]

Aight I have decided on what looks like the most effecient/easy to build/cost effect cooling system. I basically intend to emulate the pro/mini linkage...with a better case and a few mods hehe

ECUPirate you are right the P4 deffinately outranks the XP in overclockability, prob do to the heat spreader on the core. As far as your comment on saving money, the P4's run a good bit more.

Ok I haven't decided on a DDR or RDRAM based P4 board yet.... when I was oringinally deadset on the XP I picked out Mushkin PC2100 because it kicks all other brands regardless of quoted clock speeds including all other top brands asses.....OOC Link
Check out this article if the first one didn't convince you, the reviewer is a perfectionist more linkage

Ok so what do you think of the mini/pro setup and what kinda RDRAM is equivalent to the Mushkin DDR?

[Anomaly2181]

Also check out this thread with the a new pretty sweet looking GPU WB and see what you think of quality.

thread

[webmedic]

Man I was just checking price for performance and so I baught an p4 1.6a with asus p4s533 and athlon xp 1900 and mobo. The p4 overclocked up to 2.38 and the xp only got to 1850 or so but the xp still outclassed the p4 accept for the mem bandwidth test in sandra. Also the p4 don't handle overvolting to well it only took me a few months and trhe p4 wouldn't boot any more.

Now I'm on a epox 8k3a+ with an xp1600 and I have it oced up to almost 2 gig it's like 1995 or close to that But it won't get all the way into windows like that so I backed it off to 185fsb and am getting about 1950mhz or so. I dont know about you but thats a550mhz overclock. And on top of that I have the good ddr33 samsung ram so my ram timings are still maxed out at that speed. The ram is at 370mhz. The ram scores from this board even blow away the p4 board that I had. The only thing is that the northbridge on the epox gets really warm you will need to water cool it.

Did I mention that this oc is even better than I got with my abit kx7-333 with my mp2000 I could only get it up to 1875mhz.

For the water cooling stuff get the heater core and the spiral should do real good for the cpu if it's an athlon. the rest is kind of up to you but I will say I'm getting over 10500 3dmarks with my radeon 8500 without water cooling it. I don't know about the nvidia cards they may run hotter.

[Anomaly2181]

cool deal, a question to you on chips....how do you hand pick the chip.

Like I know the best Xp chips are the AGOIA -Y or AROIA, and P4's are the northwood I think. But I don't see how you can go into a store like www.outpost.com(the actaul store is 20 mins from me) and say I want a AGOIA--y or AGOIA with massive stepping. Is it pot luck, or is there a method to get a winning chip?

[webmedic]

To be truthfull the chip I have now is the best i've ever had I usually see somewere between 200 and 300 mhz overclock. It's just kind of the luck of the draw i think but try for the xp1600 with agoia stepping thats what mine is. When you goto the store just look at the top of the cpu it should say agoia right on it.

[g.l.amour]

yo webmedic, little q about the 8kha3+. i thk it was at teccentral.de that i read that the epox had a bios setting to goto 2.1 VCore. i find that very hard to believe, but if it's true then thats a big waaaw for epox.

cheerz

[Anomaly2181]

What would be an appropriate sized pelt for a chip putting out around 85 watts of heat?

Would you reccomend putting a little hot evaporator between the pelt and the chip for condensation?

Any links for good pelt companies?

[webmedic]

Originally posted by g.l.amour
yo webmedic, little q about the 8kha3+. i thk it was at teccentral.de that i read that the epox had a bios setting to goto 2.1 VCore. i find that very hard to believe, but if it's true then thats a big waaaw for epox.

cheerz

In my bois thers setting to go to 2.2v core and when in windows it still reads 2.19. The northbidge gets mighty hot on this thing though.

[Anomaly2181]

ECUPirate in order to become more intel literate('m still trying to decide amd or intel)...what are the differences advantages disadvantages to the 845 adn the 850 chipsets.....and what exactly are people referring to when they say a p4 Northwood?

Does the Northwood part imply the chipset or is that part of the serial like the AMD Agoia?

[webmedic]

look for the new p4's that have the letter a in the name like 2.0a. They have more on die level two cache and are made at 1.3 micron.

[ECUPirate]

Earlier generation P4s were Williamettes sp? They were .18 micron I think (maybe .15), but anyways, they don't OC for shite.
The Northwoods are the ones that OC... .13 micron and 512cache. Check around on Intel's website for an explanation of the new nomenclature. I know all but the fastest northwoods are "A" models... 2.0A... but the naming scheme gets more complicated w/ the faster chips, I think.

The 850 is an older, very stable RDRAM chipset. The 850E is the newer one, and officially supports 533mhz FSB chips. (the old ones usually OCd to unofficially support them...) The 850E boards probably have better DRCGs (clock generators) than the older 850's, because they are made for higher FSBs.

The 845E is a good alternative if you want DDR. The 845G is newer, and includes built in GF2 class graphics, much like the Nforce, and has an AGP slot as well (unless you opt for the cheaper 845G w/o the slot, called the 845GL). Either board is supposed to be quite good, and can OC well...depends on manufacturer, of course.

Webmedic: that's a great OC for an Athlon... rather unusual, though. Athlons are good chips; I still have an AMD rig.

RDRAM > DDR....

[ECUPirate]

oh yeah... the older P4s are socket 423. The new ones, the Northwoods, are socket 478.

[webmedic]

Originally posted by ECUPirate
Webmedic: that's a great OC for an Athlon... rather unusual, though. Athlons are good chips; I still have an AMD rig.

I agree I don't think most get quite this good but even whithout this kind of oc the athlons perform way better at a comparable price and then some.

The only p4's that are seriously faster are the new 2.5 and 2.6 but you will pay out the nose for one and maybe they will require a few body parts for a down deposit. So for me it's stick with amd. I'm good till this fall when the hammer comes out and then well it's hammer time.

I've always prefered the most bang for my buck. Thats why I use radeon cards as well. You cant beat an 8500 for the price range it is at right now. I didn't say there weren't bretter performing products out there. They just can't be had for the money I spent and most are at least twice as expensive for any significant performance gain.

[ECUPirate]

Well, AMD prices have fallen quite a bit since I last checked, but even at current prices, I'd rather have a 1.8A than a 2100 XP for the same price. The 1.8A will routinely get up to the 2.6 range, some much higher. If you've got RDRAM that can handle that kind of FSB, you'll be smokin'.
Maybe w/ the price cuts, AMD is an OK option. I just can't help you out there. ...it all depends on your budget.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

If you want extreme overclock go with a phase change setup.. to chill water.. or direct CPU cooling.. get an intel P4 1.6A which you could easily OC to 3.2Ghz with phase change cooling or a peltier setup..

[ECUPirate]

See, that's the thing. Most 1.6A and 1.8A chips will OC through the roof, but there are some that won't. I got a 2.2A, which I can only OC to 2.7... which isn't that great of an OC... but at least it's guaranteed to run at 2.2 at stock everything.