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Water Block Design / Construction Building your own block? Need info on designing one? Heres where to do it

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Unread 10-25-2002, 08:54 PM   #1
Blackeagle
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Default WB materials? ? ?

I have read a lot of threads on WB here, very informative. But I've come to a couple questions on WB materials chosen/used.

I've seen WB made from alum. and copper and even one (differant site) with a silver insert in the base. Why no alloys of silver/copper? I ask this as looking at that block that had a silver insert, I wondered if it wouldn't lose much of the silvers advantage due to a bonding interface within the block much like the one between a WB and the CPU. But this leads me to wonder if a alloy of say 65-75% copper and 25-35% silver wouldn't outperform not only copper but blocks useing a silver insert as well.

Would this in fact be the case? Has it already been done or are the costs involved high enough to have caused it's dismissal? If such a alloy has been tried & tested how large are the gains vs. pure copper?

Just a new guy trying to get my head straight on all this.
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Unread 10-25-2002, 09:35 PM   #2
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Another question comes to mind (I have many more questions than answers as you can see. ).

Would adding silver into copper being cast reduce the amount of oxygen trapped inthe casting? I know this is a real problem with pure copper when cast.

This could offset the cost of adding silver to the cast alloy if it made it easier to hold down the trapped oxygen as compared to pure copper.

Market is hanging aroung $5.00 per ounce for silver.
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Unread 10-25-2002, 09:58 PM   #3
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This is not uncommon, copper is often alloyed with silver to increase tensile strength and hardness. This tends to work well in electrical applications with only slight depreciation in electrical conductivity. However, look at this chart:

http://www.scinfitech.com/engineerre.../thermcon.html

The numbers are significantly lower in the alloys than the pure metals. Look at the Silver-Nickel alloys, for example. I'm not aware of any mathematical model to this, so I can't say for sure how effective the specific alloy you're thinking of would be, but if you're thinking that the ratio of mass of the two will be equal to the ratio of the conductivities than you're out of luck.

Regardless, money and effort for silver blocks is better spent on copper block design and machining, better pumps, etc., etc.
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Unread 10-25-2002, 10:43 PM   #4
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Pure copper or pure silver are pretty much the two best metals to use by a long shot over anything else. Steer clear of the alloys. Alloys of any kind tend to rapidly suck on the thermal conductivity of the metals, and even a copper/silver alloy performs worse than copper.

I'll be making some special order silver bases for my block design, but that's only because I'm pretty happy with how it performs.
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Unread 10-25-2002, 10:44 PM   #5
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As I understand it, the minor increase in thermal conductivity of silver over copper does not justify the added cost. It's mainly a cost/benefit thing.

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Unread 10-25-2002, 11:08 PM   #6
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But also be aware of the different Copper flavors out there, They are not all the same.... C101 is the best.... at 391 W/mK C110 is basically the same thing, almost. most blocks available are made of C110, as it is the easiest to find at any metal's shop... most people won't even be able to tell the diffs between the two. Obviously C101 is the metal of choice.

There are other coppers that are much more tarnish resistant and easier to machine, but they come at a performance deficit.
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Unread 10-26-2002, 12:08 AM   #7
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I've gotten to know the some guys at my school's machine shops and have been getting some milling lessions. However they mostly do steel and Al, so they weren't much help with copper questions.

Anyway, wheres a good place to get copper? Can it be found locally in a fairly large city (like Tucson)? If so is it expensive?
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Unread 10-26-2002, 02:35 PM   #8
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onlinemetals.com is one place. McMaster Carr is another. There should be metal scrap yards or supply companies pretty much everywhere, just look in the yellow pages. Still online you're more likely to get the exact dimensions you need.
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Unread 10-26-2002, 03:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by #Rotor
But also be aware of the different Copper flavors out there, They are not all the same.... C101 is the best.... at 391 W/mK C110 is basically the same thing, almost. most blocks available are made of C110, as it is the easiest to find at any metal's shop... most people won't even be able to tell the diffs between the two. Obviously C101 is the metal of choice.

There are other coppers that are much more tarnish resistant and easier to machine, but they come at a performance deficit.
Exactly the problem when we started to manuafcture.
We founbd it hard to get a good supply , and majority wanted to dump Crap on us. 110 is pretty common , and 101 is special order.
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Unread 10-26-2002, 08:52 PM   #10
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Thanks guys! ! That link to the metals thermal rate was pretty plain on what works and what doesn't.

One more question.

As I understand it now, pure silver would only be about 6% better than the C101 copper, correct? And at 10+ fold the cost for metal per block?
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Unread 05-23-2003, 01:18 AM   #11
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i was all smiles today till i read this thread

just recieved 20 2'x6'x3/16 sheets of copper/silver alloy sheets at work.



what a bummer
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Unread 05-23-2003, 02:47 AM   #12
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Ouch, that hurts.

The link doesn't work for me. Could you fix it or post the data for C110 and C101?
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Unread 05-23-2003, 09:30 AM   #13
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The information on C110 is here. It would appear that is what I ordered. 99.9% pure copper is not necessarily a bad thing. 0.04% Oxygen seems low to me, but then again I'm not a metallurgist.

C110 is 99.9% pure Copper (Cu) and 0.04% Oxygen (O)
C122 is 99.9% pure Copper (Cu) and 0.02% Phosphorus (P)
C101 is 99.99% pure Copper (Cu) and 0.01% extraneous elements.

I guess my question would be does that 0.04% Oxygen of C110 really affect temps that much? :shrug:

Come to think of it I think I have the data sheet on the copper bar I bought... It may indeed be C101... I'll have to find the MSDS I got with it.
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Unread 05-23-2003, 10:44 AM   #14
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I meant the W/mK data for the two. Is the difference like one or two W/mK.
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Unread 05-23-2003, 11:12 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by djsklr
i was all smiles today till i read this thread

just recieved 20 2'x6'x3/16 sheets of copper/silver alloy sheets at work.



what a bummer
Hope you were not planning on using it for water blocks. I assume not as that is an expensive purchase for not looking into the thermal properties first.
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Unread 05-23-2003, 03:11 PM   #16
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Thermal conductivity at 20°C C110 Copper – 391 W/mK (This copper is also designated “Electrolytic tough pitch Copper, UNS C11000”)

Thermal conductivity at 20°C C101 Copper – 388 W/mK (This copper is also designated “Oxygen-free electronic Copper, UNS C10100”)

Funny thing about all this is that the old 3 digit designation for the UK is C110 for that which is UNS C11000 now. This copper actually has a greater thermal conductivity than C101 (UK) which is now UNS C10100.

This information was pulled from http://materialnet.matweb.com.

Each one is linked to it's page at materialnet.matweb.com.
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Last edited by MMZ_TimeLord; 05-23-2003 at 03:17 PM.
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Unread 05-23-2003, 03:29 PM   #17
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Does this mean that C110 is cheaper and better?
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Unread 05-23-2003, 03:34 PM   #18
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Again, that's just the information I could find. I make no claims as to it's accuracy.

However, if the difference is only 3 W/mK, then it's not really a big challenge for me to pick.

"Whatever's cheaper and available will work."
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Unread 05-23-2003, 04:27 PM   #19
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I noticed that sterling silver (93% silver,7%Cu) has a W/mK of 410. But can't find any bulk price for it. Is it any cheaper than pure silver?
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Unread 05-24-2003, 12:02 PM   #20
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no., im making some brake rotors for oil drilling rigs.
but theres alot of scrap and was hoping to make good use of a piece or two.
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Unread 05-24-2003, 07:14 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by djsklr
no., im making some brake rotors for oil drilling rigs.
but theres alot of scrap and was hoping to make good use of a piece or two.
Use it anyway if you can get some scraps of it.
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Unread 11-29-2004, 11:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Pure copper or pure silver are pretty much the two best metals to use by a long shot over anything else. Steer clear of the alloys. Alloys of any kind tend to rapidly suck on the thermal conductivity of the metals, and even a copper/silver alloy performs worse than copper.

http://www.water-cooling.com/reviews...ator/page1.php

"Why use it? Pure silver is less than 8% better than Pure copper in heat conduction. CuSil is around 23% better than Pure Silver and 33% better than Cu!"

so is that just BS ? - i would've thought so anyway
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Unread 11-29-2004, 11:40 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparchris
http://www.water-cooling.com/reviews...ator/page1.php

"Why use it? Pure silver is less than 8% better than Pure copper in heat conduction. CuSil is around 23% better than Pure Silver and 33% better than Cu!"

so is that just BS ? - i would've thought so anyway
That is an extreamly optomositc statment. CuSil is 72% Silver and 28% Copper.

It can't be better than pure Silver. How can you add a metal with LOWER thermal properties to Silver and come out with a alloy with higher thermal properties?
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Unread 11-29-2004, 11:42 PM   #24
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Quick Google search:

Quote:
UPDATE 1/21/02: Cusil Thermal Conductivity

Mr. Toshi Oyama, Ph.D. R&D Manager, WESGO Metals recently informed me "that the thermal conductivity of Cusil was calculated from Electrical conductivity, which is reasonable since both are controlled by free electrons in metals. However, electrical conductivity of Cusil was measured about 30 years ago with a very primitive machine. I re-measured it, and calculated Cusil thermal conductivity to be 371 W/m/K."
http://www.overclockers.com/articles305/
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Unread 11-30-2004, 01:59 AM   #25
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An alloy, like a slice of bread, isn't just the sum of its ingredients: bread makes terrible pasta.
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