Radeon 9500/9700 Waterblock design

[W1zzard]

Just threw together this design for a 9500/9700 waterblock.





Channels will be cut with a dremel or hacksaw.

Whats the better configuration for inlet/outlet? The left one or the right one?

Any other comments? Questions?

[-J-]

nice looking, but wouldnt that be too wide??

[W1zzard]

the stock ati cooler is 80mm wide

[Neomoses]

wow, that looks very similar to one of my prototype blocks! from the pic, it looks symmetric, so I don't think it will matter which is inlet/outlet.

[W1zzard]

i meant the channel design under the inlet .. diagonal vs. circular .. sorry if that wasnt clear..

[8-Ball]

If you look at the pic, I think he's talking about the channel.

Can't see that ther'd be a huge difference at all to be honest.

8-ball

[LiquidRulez]

Originally posted by W1zzard


Whats the better configuration for inlet/outlet? The left one or the right one?

Any other comments? Questions?

Doesnt look like it will make any difference either way.

Why not make the holes perpendicular to the base? May be a bit more Vidcard friendly that way,as I dont see how it will affect the flow through the block either way you decide to cut the holes.
But having the extra pressure on the card from having to flex the tubing almost 180 degrees on the left inlet/outlet,to the next system component will definately add some uneeded stress to the whole mounting scenario on that thing. Not to mention extra tubing to route it.

How thick is your baseplate?

Either way you go with it. Looks good.

[max]

looks abit like this one (from some where in the OCAU PCDB, cant remeber):

[pippin88]

Stoodoo's block I think.

Home made design based on Cathar's ideas.

[LiquidRulez]

Originally posted by pippin88
..........

Home made design based on Cathar's ideas.

Theres going to be alot of those popping up everywhere.

Not to sound like an @ss, but unless he has a patent on the princaples of his design, then its not really his"legally" in the eyes of the gov.

Most people probably feel that if he was worried about someone copying them, that he would be protected and boast his patent pending rights...........which as far as I know, he hasnt.


I dont know about you guys, but if I had designed the WW, You can bet your @ss that Ive have a patent pending before I had shown or told anyone of it. Because these "clones" are going to be popping up for quite some time and theres really nothing he's going to be able to do to stop it legally. NOTHING.

[g.l.amour]

well, the "drillpress / dremel" guys aren't much of a risk. they'd have to work it to make 5 a month. if the likes of swiftech or dangerden would jump on...

if i were cathar i would apply for a job for one of the big ones.

[Tacops]

@Wizzard

Nice looking block m8

I have a Radeon9500 Pro and wish to mount one of your blocks

Will you be mass producing? or maybe a price to mill one for me

Im in europe so shipping costs will be minimal

[pippin88]

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
Theres going to be alot of those popping up everywhere.

Not to sound like an @ss, but unless he has a patent on the princaples of his design, then its not really his"legally" in the eyes of the gov.

Most people probably feel that if he was worried about someone copying them, that he would be protected and boast his patent pending rights...........which as far as I know, he hasnt.


I dont know about you guys, but if I had designed the WW, You can bet your @ss that Ive have a patent pending before I had shown or told anyone of it. Because these "clones" are going to be popping up for quite some time and theres really nothing he's going to be able to do to stop it legally. NOTHING.

While mainly developed by Cathar, the community over at OCAU had a role in the developement.

From what I understand, Cathar never started out to make a block for sale at all, he wrote a simulator to see if he could push the limits of the current watercooling methods (Rad, pump, block - straight simple watercooling). He managed to find a good design and tweaked it, resulting in a high performing block. I also believe he's only just made all his costs back, and all money over cost is going into developing and prototyping his next block, all on top of a regular day job and kids.

No offence to others, but the average Australian attitude to someone designing or building something seems a wee bit more respectful, and less likely to try to rip it off for $$$.

Stoodoo's are just Ghetto home blocks, and Cathar has made it clear he does not care if people want to use his design for their own use. He's never released exact designs or measurements, so it's unlikely you could get his performance easily anyway.

Let's put this myth to bed. Cathar is not claiming to have invented microchannels or jet impingement, nor be the first to use them to cool stuff with water, he just designed a block utilising both principles, and therefore like anyone, does not appreciate people trying to make $$$ out of his design.

[W1zzard]

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
Doesnt look like it will make any difference either way.

Why not make the holes perpendicular to the base? May be a bit more Vidcard friendly that way,as I dont see how it will affect the flow through the block either way you decide to cut the holes.
But having the extra pressure on the card from having to flex the tubing almost 180 degrees on the left inlet/outlet,to the next system component will definately add some uneeded stress to the whole mounting scenario on that thing. Not to mention extra tubing to route it.

How thick is your baseplate?

hmm .. i was actually trying to reduce flex on the tubing/pressure on the vid card .. gonna think over it again .. bp is 3mm

@Tacops: sorry .. not gonna sell/distribute these .. if you want the solidworks cad model drop me an email

[8-Ball]

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
Theres going to be alot of those popping up everywhere.

Not to sound like an @ss, but unless he has a patent on the princaples of his design, then its not really his"legally" in the eyes of the gov.

Most people probably feel that if he was worried about someone copying them, that he would be protected and boast his patent pending rights...........which as far as I know, he hasnt.


I dont know about you guys, but if I had designed the WW, You can bet your @ss that Ive have a patent pending before I had shown or told anyone of it. Because these "clones" are going to be popping up for quite some time and theres really nothing he's going to be able to do to stop it legally. NOTHING.

You are being an @$$.

1. How much would you feasibly earn selling these.
2. How much would a patent cost, roughly £2000 in the UK, and that only prevents the sale of the patented goods in the UK.

You would need to have a patent in each of the countries you planned to market in and be prepared to have people copy and sell it in other countries.

Patents are only worth while if you can afford to maintain them, and more iportantly, defend them. This costs big money.

This is a small community where people regularly share ideas to improve watercooling for everyone. It is often ruined by people like yourself who would see fit to make gains at the expense of others.

8-ball

[Cathar]

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
I dont know about you guys, but if I had designed the WW, You can bet your @ss that Ive have a patent pending before I had shown or told anyone of it. Because these "clones" are going to be popping up for quite some time and theres really nothing he's going to be able to do to stop it legally. NOTHING.

Perhaps you need to be a little more versed in international patent law. There is no single international patent body to cover one's designs. To attempt to apply to cover one's @ss world-wide is also practically futile.

A patent, or even a patent-pending, is next to useless unless you have the financial might to back it up in every single country where it might be violated.

Worse, there are countries that flagrantly disregard copyright and patent law. The company I work for, Cisco, has recently opened legal proceeding against a Chinese company that has practically ripped off Cisco's products hook, line and sinker. Right down to the custom hardware ASIC's, and even right down to the exact same known software "bugs". That company was earning $3B/year from doing this, but believe me, it's going to be a heck of a fight for Cisco to do something about it due to the lack of "caring" by the Chinese government. I believe Cisco will prevail here, but only because they have the mammoth legal and financial resources to do so, far, far, far beyond what any individual can do.

You can apply for your patent, but let me tell you, unless you foresee it earning you at least $1M/year, you may as well not even bother because if the idea is good enough, you'll run out of money chasing down the copy-cats anyway.

So what's left for the "little guy"? Answer: nothing, except to rely on effectively a Gentleman's Agreement, which in this day and age is also worth next to nothing, because for many people, the attitude seems to be "Well if their @ss isn't covered, I'm going to fry it and screw the sucker".

pippin88, and even Stoodoo, both just gave me the courtesy of acknowledging where the inspiration came from. That's all I ask. Is that even too much to ask in this day and age?

I can't hold back a pending storm of copy-cats, even if I were equipped with a US patent application that you seem to cherish as being some all-powerful thing that it is not. A patent can be challenged. US corporate history is littered with cases of predatory larger companies who steal other smaller company's technology, and when push comes to shove, the smaller company is eventually driven broke paying the legal fees to defend their technology, and then said predator comes along and buys up the pieces, along with the patents anyway.

If you think a patent cover's your @ss when you're anything less than a multi-million dollar corporation, then it's time to get a grip on reality. Now multiply that problem for every country world-wide.

End-result, patents are futile for the little guy, especially a little guy sitting in another country.

So what's your problem then? That someone has the decency to at least acknowledge a source individual for their implementation? You think that someone doesn't deserve at least that right just because they don't have a pointless patent application?

Sorry for the rant to all those who are watching. I've been silently watching this tension build for a while now and felt the urge to vent.

[g.l.amour]

this is the same thing rotor asks. his block has been copied a mighty lot, yet noone has started to make a living from it.

result, lots of ppl feel very happy and honoured that an inventer of a method is helping them fabricate something; with good advice and tips. one can be proud of accomplishing something. in the mean time i hope some of the coppycats can give something worthwile back. if someone finds something that further refines a method, the community can learn.

i will never forget to mention who has been the inspiror of a certain block. believe it or not, this block was designed to use some of cathars ideas ;-) it's as close as rotor's method would come to cathar's. i'm sure if i could make a nozzle at the barb inlet that the block would be about as good performing as a drill press block can get. but now the water is prolly not jetted against the base.

[Cova]

I hate to get involved in this arguement, but as far as patenting Cathars block goes, assuming I did make 1000 of them and sell them (in the country he patented them in) and he tried to sue me, his patent would also not hold up in court (if it was ever allowed in the first place). There's a thing in patent-law called prior-art - basically all I have to do to dismiss cathars hypothetical patent is prove that someone, somewhere has used small channels for cooling before. Just looking at a standard 1U copper HSF would probably do it in that case - lots of tiny copper fins/channels with a fan blowing a fluid straight down into them and out the sides - I'm using that design but with a different fluid - and I haven't even had to leave the CPU cooling industry (which is a relatively VERY small industry) to find an example. Now a patent could get more and more and more specific to try and rule out all these other examples of prior-art, but all that does is make the patent less usefull as I just have to make a small change somewhere to be not included in its scope anymore. Cathar doesn't stand a hope in hell in stoping people copying it if they want to, and he knows it, all he asks is to be fair, and I personally respect that and wouldn't buy a block from someone that was out to make money from using his design (which is different from say morphlings block which he isn't out to make money from, and IMHO is different enough to co-exist, as I prefer his 2-barb solution)

To get back on topic - have you considered 2 acrylic layers on that radeon block? I'm thinking for lowest profile have a very top layer with 2 barbs coming in the edge (it would be a thick layer - perhaps glue a few layers together before drilling/milling to make a single thick piece) going to thie mid-point, and then exiting the bottom of that layer, the next layer would line up those bottom-holes and form a nice corner in the channel to prevent it being too restrictive as the flow is re-directed down towards the core (and perhaps also angled in towards the center), and at the bottom would be the channels. I suppose it could be done with only 2 layers, but I think it would end up being really restrictive in the area where the water makes the 90 from coming in the side to down to the copper and then another 90 from towards the copper to parallel to the copper. It would definatly be very turbulent in that area as well.

[8-Ball]

if someone finds something that further refines a method, the community can learn.

I think g.l.amour has hit the nail on the head. This is a very small community and without multi million dollar funding for research, the only way we will improve the designs for watercooling is for open discussion.

As I understand it, white water was developed openly at OCAU. I won't deny that cathar came up with many of the ideas, but I'm sure there were others who contributed.

This is the spirit of the community and is what allows it to evolve, constantly improving the technology. All it needs is a little respect to those who come up with the initial ideas, for the community to remain as an environment where people WANT to contribute. Not that hard really is it. Ripping off the ideas of others is just going to sour the atmosphere, ultimately stopping many people from contributing.

8-ball

[LiquidRulez]

Originally posted by 8-Ball
You are being an @$$.

1. How much would you feasibly earn selling these.
2. How much would a patent cost, roughly £2000 in the UK, and that only prevents the sale of the patented goods in the UK.

You would need to have a patent in each of the countries you planned to market in and be prepared to have people copy and sell it in other countries.

Patents are only worth while if you can afford to maintain them, and more iportantly, defend them. This costs big money.

This is a small community where people regularly share ideas to improve watercooling for everyone. It is often ruined by people like yourself who would see fit to make gains at the expense of others.

8-ball

WTF?

[LiquidRulez]

Originally posted by 8-Ball
You are being an @$$.

1. How much would you feasibly earn selling these.
2. How much would a patent cost, roughly £2000 in the UK, and that only prevents the sale of the patented goods in the UK.

You would need to have a patent in each of the countries you planned to market in and be prepared to have people copy and sell it in other countries.

Patents are only worth while if you can afford to maintain them, and more iportantly, defend them. This costs big money.

This is a small community where people regularly share ideas to improve watercooling for everyone. It is often ruined by people like yourself who would see fit to make gains at the expense of others.

8-ball

WTF? I never said I was going to be the one making a cathar clone .
All I said was that people ripping his ideas and trying to make some $$ off of it was to be expected.

And I agree with the fact that cATHAR SHOULD BE GIVEN CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE.He did all the work.why the h&ll not!

And I never once said that it wouldnt be expensive to get a patent and keep it up. All I was talking about was a patent pending application....Which is all I would get considering that...

1)it will hardly sell enough to warrent a full patent
a)if you did, the PPA would give you a much earlier filing time though.

2)in a years time, your design would probably be obsolete anyway, and would not be worth wasting good money on a formal patent.

Everyone's jumping all in my $hit, like Im the one out to get Cathar.

Ive been working on a design too for a few years that Cathars is very simular to......Do I get in public forums and piss and moan because he's making a few bucks with said simular design?
No.

Why?? Because microchannels are nothing new, and I dont own a patent on the concept.
Besides, hes a very nice guy, from what little I know of him,and hes done nothing to me to merit any flaming, ect.



And again, I have the utmost respect for Cathar and his contribution to watercooling PC's.

I do not appreciate being ridiculed for pointing out the obvious.
Why dont you save it for someone who deserves it.


And I didnt have an hour to type all the basics of patent law.
But I do have a good grasp on it all considering my brother is a practicing patent attorney.

Well, enough of this. In the future I will try not to lend a helping hand and point out what should be clear to the simple mind.


@ wizzard...
i apologize for stepping all over your thread.