have i missed something?

siavash_s_s · 09-19-2003, 04:06 AM

i have tried and cut 3 blocks now, 8cm by 4 cm by 1/4" thick (srry for using imperial and metric side by side but what the hey..) and i have failed miserably. im using normal wood drillbits that can cut the copper, and they slip slide around.... the template im using is perfect, and i start off by glueing it on, punching the marks on, then when i get to drilling the first divets onto the copper it doesnt go on exactly perfect, then with the 5.5 ~ 6 millimetre bit it slides around and sometimes is off by a whole mm. do all drill presses do this and its my bad handywork, or is there a *special method* ?
even flaming me with an idea would be good
thnx

siavash_s_s · 09-19-2003, 04:21 AM

heres sum piccies

the drill bit always slips around....

Groth · 09-19-2003, 04:21 AM

Low quality drill press is my guess - the bearing are sloppy and don't hold the chuck centered. As a test, with no bit/no work on the table/power off, plunge the chuck to its maximum depth, and see if you can wiggle it side to side.

The other possibility is insufficiently rigid bits.

You do have your block clamped tightly, right?

Boli · 09-19-2003, 04:24 AM

Quote:

im using normal wood drillbits that can cut the copper

I think that's your problem right there. From what In know you have to run things at very high RPM and do things very slowley and 1mm deapth at a time.

Your bit is slipping because it isn't the right sort of drill bit and/or it isn't sharp enough. They make different types of bits for a reason. As I found out when I used my metal drill bits on plastic I spent most of my time cleaning the mess out of the grooves.

~ Boli

siavash_s_s · 09-19-2003, 04:25 AM

i have used this type of drill to bore into stainless steel before on the same press. however the drill bit tip isnt pointy, it comes to a point that is like a ridge about 1mm in length. i think thats the problem, as for the press itself, the bit AND the chuck *seem* to move. i suppose thats what you get for a $au250 ryobi press/

edit: groth - i dont have it clamped down at all i use my hand to hold it down after using a clamp and it not making a difference at all. it is not the block thats moving, and infact i sort of can correct the movement of the chuck and bit by applying pressure on the opposite direction with my hand. ps i know it *can* be dangerous but im from a country where there is no law making 2 labourers pick up something over 50kg, so weraing saftey goggles etc... is not what i do, so no falming about it!:shrug:

edit again: also this slowly 1mm at a time thing is probably what is wrong, im driving the thing down with the weight of my hand and doing 4-5 mm in a few seconds.

Groth · 09-19-2003, 04:47 AM

In the pictures I can see where a hole seems to want to 'slide' into it's neighbor. That exactly what you get with lame bearings or a flexing bit. The sideways pressure of cutting overlapping holes is moving the bit tip.

A couple possibilities: use the shortest possible bit, it'll flex less; keep your work as close to the head as possible - you'll have less movement of the chuck; better bits - harder, more rigid, sharper; a better drill press.

Slowing down is a must - give the bit time to do it work. Also, check your RPMs - your press should have come with a table of suggested speeds.

A pic of these bits you describe?

siavash_s_s · 09-19-2003, 04:50 AM

no suggested speeds, but i found that 3000 sucks, and it helped break the first one, 2000 is much much better, and i went one slower but that sucked. never the less im thinking of using a routing bit my dad has to do it due to its sharp tip and strength... i have a 3 horsepower electric router that is VERY stable and high quality... wish it wasnt 22000 rpms and had a press attachment.

Groth · 09-19-2003, 05:14 AM

A router bit is a REALLY BAD idea, quite likely dangerous. It just isn't made for that sort of thing.

The bits you show are fine for metal, but the one in that second picture looks dull and chewed up. The edge where the flutes come out of the tip need to be even and sharp. Maybe it's just the photo. Anyway, those are loooonnng bits. They're gonna be prone to flex.

Another possibility: Pilot holes - drill holes small enough that they don't overlap (better odds of them being even), then drill 'em out larger.

Ya really need better bits.

siavash_s_s · 09-19-2003, 05:46 AM

well i thought of the size and i pushed them in all the way in till only a little bit remained sticking out, about 3 -4 cm, which compared to a few mill bits i have seen lately are pretty long, so i will try to fix that up by grinding the shaft shorter
as for the tip will a dremel sharp it good enuff? i think it should

msv · 09-19-2003, 06:15 AM

There are drill bit sharpeners.
I hope the pic is correctly attached. That specific sharpener cost a tad over 2 $/€, should be found at any better hardware store.
regards
Mikael S.

#Rotor · 09-19-2003, 06:24 AM

your bits look like they can do with a sharpening.... also minimize the lenth of the bit by inserting it into the chuck as far as it wil go... less flex

g.l.amour · 09-19-2003, 06:25 AM

hi there,

those drillbits look like metal drillbits to me...

anyway, looks like a lowQ drillpress, no worries there; i use one, and i don't think the holes need to lined up perfectly to get good performance. my blocks don't look anywhere near the perfection #rotor gets. but noone will notice with a coppertop or even a polytop.

looks like a nice block to me, congrats; always nice to see someone getting there without a 1000$'s worth of equipment.

MMZ_TimeLord · 09-19-2003, 09:08 AM

Those bits are High Speed Steel and are fine for copper IF they are sharp.

To keep them from "wandering", like small bits will tend to do, use a center punch to "dimple" the middle of your guide circles. This will give the bit a place to start cutting and minimize the "wandering".

I didn't have to do that on the block pictures I posted last night, because they are ¼ inch in diameter and tend to be pretty rigid. Anything smaller than that and I do "dimple" first.

The ball endmill I used for the seal channel is only 1/16 inch indiameter... BUT, it's only about ½ inch long so there is VERY LITTLE tendency to "wander"... also, I was cutting at 2500 RPM.

maxim · 09-19-2003, 11:25 AM

i am using the same bits in my weak ass drill press. here is my advice: start with a small pilot hole all the way down, something like 1/16", then go to the next size, NOT the final size, just whatever it is they think is next in this retarded system. then the next one and so on until you get to the point where you cant drill any bigger without cutting into other holes. i made a block yesterday doing just that. took a long time, BUT no thing got stuck, nothing got chewed up, and all the holes were just as charp looking at the end as they were after the first bit. final diameters were 1/4" which is pretty hard to keep straight with shitty presses. they are also so close that some cut into eachother, but in a good way, just barely.

another thing this allows you to do is skip the largest bits on the holes that eneded up being off center.

#Rotor · 09-19-2003, 02:02 PM

g.l.amour is making a very good point there.... This design is extremely forgiving... so much so that I'm tempted to say that your somewhat botched up job

, might actually end up performing better than, if it had come out perfect.... I dono, just a thing about all those ugly and sharp edges and water flowing through it..... makes for a lot of turbulence....

and that is the be-all and end-all in block performance..... turbulence!

As for it being your 4'th go at it..... you are doing about 156% better than I had, at my 4th.... so you are doing awesome, by no stretch of the imagination....

siavash_s_s · 09-19-2003, 09:50 PM

well conmsidering im a genious.... j/k

thnx for the praise, im not used to it... ("SIAVASH GET OUT OF THE CLASS!!!!

" ... "Thank you miss!") lol

as for the press, i tried groths suggestion of lowering the press and the shaft that holds the thing is pretty stable, but the shaft that spins and holds the chuck is moving about 1mm or so. as for the bits i am sure its the pictures because those bits are practically new, tho i did try sharping them with a dremel (its all good i even made a routing bit that way before so i didnt ruin it) and its a bit sharper now and will likley get a smoother cut. as for the dimples, i already tried that, and i even took a page out of #rotors book and made a guide template out of aluminium, which surprisingly is very square and nice. i was lying in bed last, all messed up becuase of hayfever (damned flowers!) and i was thinking of drilling the pilot holes form the alu template as far in as the actuall holes then using progressivley bigger bits. anyway a stroke of bad luck and now my pc, press and dremel are being taken away due to my lack of enthusiasm towards my yr11 finals, taking place right now... *hopefully* ill get 20 - 25$au an hour during rugby world cup at my mums souvenir shop for a couple of weeks, and ill definatley buy a good mill or mill/lathe combo. if anyone knows of any small CNC machines second hand being sold in aus for a few grand msg me (prolly not but worth a try hey)
anyway thnx for the ideas, i am going to open this press up today (alass my last day with it....) and see if i can replace the shoddy bearings.

09-19-2003, 04:06 AM	#1
siavash_s_s Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: here n there Posts: 194	have i missed something? i have tried and cut 3 blocks now, 8cm by 4 cm by 1/4" thick (srry for using imperial and metric side by side but what the hey..) and i have failed miserably. im using normal wood drillbits that can cut the copper, and they slip slide around.... the template im using is perfect, and i start off by glueing it on, punching the marks on, then when i get to drilling the first divets onto the copper it doesnt go on exactly perfect, then with the 5.5 ~ 6 millimetre bit it slides around and sometimes is off by a whole mm. do all drill presses do this and its my bad handywork, or is there a special method ? even flaming me with an idea would be good thnx __________________ buy me a mill

09-19-2003, 04:21 AM	#2
siavash_s_s Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: here n there Posts: 194	heres sum piccies the drill bit always slips around.... __________________ buy me a mill Last edited by siavash_s_s; 09-19-2003 at 04:38 AM.

09-19-2003, 04:25 AM	#5
siavash_s_s Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: here n there Posts: 194	i have used this type of drill to bore into stainless steel before on the same press. however the drill bit tip isnt pointy, it comes to a point that is like a ridge about 1mm in length. i think thats the problem, as for the press itself, the bit AND the chuck seem to move. i suppose thats what you get for a $au250 ryobi press/ edit: groth - i dont have it clamped down at all i use my hand to hold it down after using a clamp and it not making a difference at all. it is not the block thats moving, and infact i sort of can correct the movement of the chuck and bit by applying pressure on the opposite direction with my hand. ps i know it can be dangerous but im from a country where there is no law making 2 labourers pick up something over 50kg, so weraing saftey goggles etc... is not what i do, so no falming about it!:shrug: edit again: also this slowly 1mm at a time thing is probably what is wrong, im driving the thing down with the weight of my hand and doing 4-5 mm in a few seconds. __________________ buy me a mill Last edited by siavash_s_s; 09-19-2003 at 04:34 AM.

09-19-2003, 04:50 AM	#7
siavash_s_s Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: here n there Posts: 194	no suggested speeds, but i found that 3000 sucks, and it helped break the first one, 2000 is much much better, and i went one slower but that sucked. never the less im thinking of using a routing bit my dad has to do it due to its sharp tip and strength... i have a 3 horsepower electric router that is VERY stable and high quality... wish it wasnt 22000 rpms and had a press attachment. __________________ buy me a mill Last edited by siavash_s_s; 09-19-2003 at 04:58 AM.

09-19-2003, 05:46 AM	#9
siavash_s_s Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: here n there Posts: 194	well i thought of the size and i pushed them in all the way in till only a little bit remained sticking out, about 3 -4 cm, which compared to a few mill bits i have seen lately are pretty long, so i will try to fix that up by grinding the shaft shorter as for the tip will a dremel sharp it good enuff? i think it should __________________ buy me a mill

09-19-2003, 04:21 AM	#3
Groth Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: MO Posts: 781	Low quality drill press is my guess - the bearing are sloppy and don't hold the chuck centered. As a test, with no bit/no work on the table/power off, plunge the chuck to its maximum depth, and see if you can wiggle it side to side. The other possibility is insufficiently rigid bits. You do have your block clamped tightly, right?

09-19-2003, 04:47 AM	#6
Groth Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: MO Posts: 781	In the pictures I can see where a hole seems to want to 'slide' into it's neighbor. That exactly what you get with lame bearings or a flexing bit. The sideways pressure of cutting overlapping holes is moving the bit tip. A couple possibilities: use the shortest possible bit, it'll flex less; keep your work as close to the head as possible - you'll have less movement of the chuck; better bits - harder, more rigid, sharper; a better drill press. Slowing down is a must - give the bit time to do it work. Also, check your RPMs - your press should have come with a table of suggested speeds. A pic of these bits you describe?

09-19-2003, 05:14 AM	#8
Groth Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: MO Posts: 781	A router bit is a REALLY BAD idea, quite likely dangerous. It just isn't made for that sort of thing. The bits you show are fine for metal, but the one in that second picture looks dull and chewed up. The edge where the flutes come out of the tip need to be even and sharp. Maybe it's just the photo. Anyway, those are loooonnng bits. They're gonna be prone to flex. Another possibility: Pilot holes - drill holes small enough that they don't overlap (better odds of them being even), then drill 'em out larger. Ya really need better bits.

09-19-2003, 06:24 AM	#11
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	your bits look like they can do with a sharpening.... also minimize the lenth of the bit by inserting it into the chuck as far as it wil go... less flex __________________ There is no Spoon....

09-19-2003, 06:25 AM	#12
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	hi there, those drillbits look like metal drillbits to me... anyway, looks like a lowQ drillpress, no worries there; i use one, and i don't think the holes need to lined up perfectly to get good performance. my blocks don't look anywhere near the perfection #rotor gets. but noone will notice with a coppertop or even a polytop. looks like a nice block to me, congrats; always nice to see someone getting there without a 1000$'s worth of equipment. __________________ yo soy un tiburón

09-19-2003, 09:08 AM	#13
MMZ_TimeLord Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Mateo, CA, USA, Earth Posts: 433	Those bits are High Speed Steel and are fine for copper IF they are sharp. To keep them from "wandering", like small bits will tend to do, use a center punch to "dimple" the middle of your guide circles. This will give the bit a place to start cutting and minimize the "wandering". I didn't have to do that on the block pictures I posted last night, because they are ¼ inch in diameter and tend to be pretty rigid. Anything smaller than that and I do "dimple" first. The ball endmill I used for the seal channel is only 1/16 inch indiameter... BUT, it's only about ½ inch long so there is VERY LITTLE tendency to "wander"... also, I was cutting at 2500 RPM. __________________ MMZ>TimeLord "Oooooooooh... that's gonna leave a mark!"

09-19-2003, 11:25 AM	#14
maxim Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: VA Tech Posts: 111	i am using the same bits in my weak ass drill press. here is my advice: start with a small pilot hole all the way down, something like 1/16", then go to the next size, NOT the final size, just whatever it is they think is next in this retarded system. then the next one and so on until you get to the point where you cant drill any bigger without cutting into other holes. i made a block yesterday doing just that. took a long time, BUT no thing got stuck, nothing got chewed up, and all the holes were just as charp looking at the end as they were after the first bit. final diameters were 1/4" which is pretty hard to keep straight with shitty presses. they are also so close that some cut into eachother, but in a good way, just barely. another thing this allows you to do is skip the largest bits on the holes that eneded up being off center.

09-19-2003, 02:02 PM	#15
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	g.l.amour is making a very good point there.... This design is extremely forgiving... so much so that I'm tempted to say that your somewhat botched up job , might actually end up performing better than, if it had come out perfect.... I dono, just a thing about all those ugly and sharp edges and water flowing through it..... makes for a lot of turbulence.... and that is the be-all and end-all in block performance..... turbulence! As for it being your 4'th go at it..... you are doing about 156% better than I had, at my 4th.... so you are doing awesome, by no stretch of the imagination.... __________________ There is no Spoon....

09-19-2003, 09:50 PM	#16
siavash_s_s Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: here n there Posts: 194	well conmsidering im a genious.... j/k thnx for the praise, im not used to it... ("SIAVASH GET OUT OF THE CLASS!!!! " ... "Thank you miss!") lol as for the press, i tried groths suggestion of lowering the press and the shaft that holds the thing is pretty stable, but the shaft that spins and holds the chuck is moving about 1mm or so. as for the bits i am sure its the pictures because those bits are practically new, tho i did try sharping them with a dremel (its all good i even made a routing bit that way before so i didnt ruin it) and its a bit sharper now and will likley get a smoother cut. as for the dimples, i already tried that, and i even took a page out of #rotors book and made a guide template out of aluminium, which surprisingly is very square and nice. i was lying in bed last, all messed up becuase of hayfever (damned flowers!) and i was thinking of drilling the pilot holes form the alu template as far in as the actuall holes then using progressivley bigger bits. anyway a stroke of bad luck and now my pc, press and dremel are being taken away due to my lack of enthusiasm towards my yr11 finals, taking place right now... hopefully ill get 20 - 25$au an hour during rugby world cup at my mums souvenir shop for a couple of weeks, and ill definatley buy a good mill or mill/lathe combo. if anyone knows of any small CNC machines second hand being sold in aus for a few grand msg me (prolly not but worth a try hey) anyway thnx for the ideas, i am going to open this press up today (alass my last day with it....) and see if i can replace the shoddy bearings. __________________ buy me a mill

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