Making knowledgeable component/system choices

[psychofunk]

I see day after day the same old post and I find myself guilty of it as well. I am discovering that not only the over abundance of misinformation but also a lack of understanding of the information that I do get to be the culprit for me. I am not a science guy. I do not get nor will I ever get the cw, the pressure drop stuff or any other science math stuff. But maybe there are some general conclusion that I can draw from the information that is available to me. But I need your guys help to put into lamens terms what the hell it is that everyone is talking about. So here goes.

Just as in any purchase two of the most important things are customer support and a company known for making quality components. So set those two points aside as a given. I will consider that first but then my choices come down to the intangibles (unless I test every possible component first hand which will not happen unless I win super lotto) that is where I need your help. Make me and any other person that comes here for the first time a stonger and more informed buyer. Hell if you guys think of enough stuff to tell me maybe this can be made a stickey and maybe you will have seen your last "what is the best pump/waterblock" post.

So then lets get to it, first we have to choose tubing size. 1/2 inch ID all the way!! Is that right? Why does the rest of the planet use 3/8 or even 1/4? What affect does it have? Restricts flow? How much? Is 1/2 the best compromise of two effects?

Second, the pump that moves the water through the loop. Why is one pump better then another? Can I just assume that the more GPM a pump has the better it is? What about head (not that kind )? What about the heat that the pump creates? When is too much too much and does it change based on other components?

Next is the radiator. So first off size matters. Brass/Copper so that I am not mixing metals. Single pass prefered because it is less restrictive. What about if it is not single pass? How restrictive is it? How will I know how much of an impact this will have on my system? Why is a chevette core better than a BIX or is it? What is so special about a BIX or thermochill? A shroud helps to direct air and reduce back pressure? Huh? Well how deep should this shroud be? What about fans on it? Push or pull or a push/pull? What kind of diff will that really make? Will a push/pull be about 1 degree better in which case WGAC?

Now we come to the blocks, where things get really confusing. So we have single blocks and multiple blocks. First we start with a CPU block. Some flow staight through and others have channels, then there is impingment. What in the hell is pressure drop? How does my choice here affect other choices that I make in the system? Then we have GPU and NB blocks. How do adding one or both of these affect what is happening on the first block? How do all of these combined affect my pump? I have been told that a typical heatercore will have far more cooling ability then these block combines could ever put out, is that correct? So what qualities am I looking for in a block when I am going for a single block setup? Is this different in a multi block setup?

Finally we are done, or maybe not, how about the res. How does this thing affect flow? Am I better off with an airtrap run off of a T? Does placement in the loop matter.

I know that initial temps can be affected by each and every one of these things but realistically how things are going to perfoem when we are blasting away for hours at some guy in another state or creating the next Shrek (I am kind of partial to Donkey) is far more important so answer with that in mind please.

I know there is multi pump setup, multi rad setups, tec setups, chiller setups, serial, parallel, blaaah blah blaaaah blah blah. I think above about covers the most common setups. Add anthing else you think will help. Please answer one or two questions or link to other discussions that helped you with a particular subject. I think this will help alot of newbs as well as some amateurs but it won't help anyone unless you pros step up with some answers, in simple english please.

psycho

[bobkoure]

I'd suggest you first figure out what your priorities are for the system you're putting together.
Remember the "good, fast, cheap - choose two" saying? It's a lot like that
You should at least decide if you want a very-quiet system (one reason to water cool) and/or a very overclocked system (another reason to water cool). You should also know if you expect to cool just the CPU or more bits that that and how big a radiator you can stand having (need it to fit inside the case? how much room is in there anyway?). Oh, right - and there's price...
I'm no expert (just wandering around here myself), but IMHO if you've figured out some of what youwant the folks who are experts might just have a helpful opinion.

[bigben2k]

First, let me thank you, psychofunk, for detailing all of this for us all: your perspective on water cooling is probably more common than we'd like to admit.

Science aside, I can tell you that support is going to be limited, because the water cooling scene is still not mainstream, at least not as much as Coca-Cola... What that translates into, is that support might not be what you expect.

To the best of my knowledge, Danger Den and Swiftech's websites are probably the friendliest that you'll encounter. Of course it's not the same as the customer service department at your local Wall-Wart...

Water Cooling is available in many forms, for different audiences. If you're a tinkerer/hobbyest, you'll enjoy water cooling just for the exercise. If on the other hand you're interested in WC in its simplest form, i.e. just water cool it, period, then a kit would probably be your best choice, and you probably don't want to hear that you won't get the same performance levels as the rest of us here. You'll just want to know about how to maintain it, and hope that it's not too involved.

Of course you can be somewhere in the middle: a tinkerer, but not a scientist. That's good. In that case, you probably don't mind building a water cooling system from parts gathered, and you'll enjoy better performance than a kit. What you need is for someone to advise you what to buy.

But it seems to me like you already have the answers, so unless you have a specific question about a particular component, you're good to go, otherwise, ask it.

So you ask about tubing size. If you're in the USA, most blocks here use 1/2", some still use 3/8". You won't really need to worry about either one of those, unless you plan to run a pretty heavy pump and a relatively high flow rate, along the lines of 1.5 gpm (which is my personal "set point" to switch to 1/2", but not substantiated). Of course it's near impossible for you to predict the flow rate you'll end up with, but we can tell you that on average, you can expect to hit 1.0 gpm (ref: overclockers.com).

You also ask about the rad: yes, use a shroud, it's worth it. No, two fans won't make a significant difference and yes, there are other options (ref blower). Yes a double pass is more restrictive, but the flow rate hit you'll take is probably minimal, unless your core is particularly small. BIX look pretty, and fit nicely.

Blocs: you probably want to pick out a good CPU block. See pHaestus reviews: he's got quite a few of them already. You should take a minute and consider why you want to water cool the GPU and NB.

Res/airtrap: it should, ideally, be minimally restrictive. I have yet to see a "bad" one. A common one is the good ole tee in the loop. I made one from scratch (see sig).

The only other advice to give you, goes back to bobkoure's post: state your objectives. Are you looking for an extreme overclock? Some overclock? What about noise? what about portability? The objectives help greatly in picking out WC components.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by psychofunk

I see day after day the same old post and I find myself guilty of it as well. I am discovering that not only the over abundance of misinformation but also a lack of understanding of the information that I do get to be the culprit for me. I am not a science guy. I do not get nor will I ever get the cw, the pressure drop stuff or any other science math stuff. But maybe there are some general conclusion that I can draw from the information that is available to me. But I need your guys help to put into lamens terms what the hell it is that everyone is talking about. So here goes.

Just as in any purchase two of the most important things are customer support and a company known for making quality components. So set those two points aside as a given. I will consider that first but then my choices come down to the intangibles (unless I test every possible component first hand which will not happen unless I win super lotto) that is where I need your help. Make me and any other person that comes here for the first time a stonger and more informed buyer. Hell if you guys think of enough stuff to tell me maybe this can be made a stickey and maybe you will have seen your last "what is the best pump/waterblock" post.

So then lets get to it, first we have to choose tubing size. 1/2 inch ID all the way!! Is that right? Why does the rest of the planet use 3/8 or even 1/4? What affect does it have? Restricts flow? How much? Is 1/2 the best compromise of two effects?

Second, the pump that moves the water through the loop. Why is one pump better then another? Can I just assume that the more GPM a pump has the better it is? What about head (not that kind )? What about the heat that the pump creates? When is too much too much and does it change based on other components?

Next is the radiator. So first off size matters. Brass/Copper so that I am not mixing metals. Single pass prefered because it is less restrictive. What about if it is not single pass? How restrictive is it? How will I know how much of an impact this will have on my system? Why is a chevette core better than a BIX or is it? What is so special about a BIX or thermochill? A shroud helps to direct air and reduce back pressure? Huh? Well how deep should this shroud be? What about fans on it? Push or pull or a push/pull? What kind of diff will that really make? Will a push/pull be about 1 degree better in which case WGAC?

Now we come to the blocks, where things get really confusing. So we have single blocks and multiple blocks. First we start with a CPU block. Some flow staight through and others have channels, then there is impingment. What in the hell is pressure drop? How does my choice here affect other choices that I make in the system? Then we have GPU and NB blocks. How do adding one or both of these affect what is happening on the first block? How do all of these combined affect my pump? I have been told that a typical heatercore will have far more cooling ability then these block combines could ever put out, is that correct? So what qualities am I looking for in a block when I am going for a single block setup? Is this different in a multi block setup?

Finally we are done, or maybe not, how about the res. How does this thing affect flow? Am I better off with an airtrap run off of a T? Does placement in the loop matter.

I know that initial temps can be affected by each and every one of these things but realistically how things are going to perfoem when we are blasting away for hours at some guy in another state or creating the next Shrek (I am kind of partial to Donkey) is far more important so answer with that in mind please.

I know there is multi pump setup, multi rad setups, tec setups, chiller setups, serial, parallel, blaaah blah blaaaah blah blah. I think above about covers the most common setups. Add anthing else you think will help. Please answer one or two questions or link to other discussions that helped you with a particular subject. I think this will help alot of newbs as well as some amateurs but it won't help anyone unless you pros step up with some answers, in simple english please.

psycho

LOL, sorry dude. Not nearly enough solid information to answer any of your questions in Basic English or Scientific ramble. If anyone tries it will simply be more opinionated answers based on limited personal experience. The pro's are not as advanced as you may think (most have lesser systems than newbs). They may have the knowledge to do what is needed to answer you questions but they simply do not have the time or money to make those answers. Your talking about thousands of $$ worth of testing equipment and hundres of hours of time. Which no one has either.

Water cooling is NOT mainstream and untill it is there will be nothing but opinionated answers based on limited personal experience because most of the DIY systems are NOT factory designed. Untill the entire system is spacifically designed for water cooling systems the specs needed to answer your questions are not obtainable. Untill then it is basically take user information and hope they are not full of it (which is becoming rare).

What your asking for is the "perfect" system. You will not get those answers.

This is as simple as it can get. Get a good radiator (chevett core (tried and true)), get a good pump (mcw600, DD D4, whatever), get a good block (white water, TDX, Cascade, MCW6000), get a rez or a inline T (doesn't matter both work the same if done right) and the only way you can go wrong is user error in installation.

Ben covered customer service.

bobkoure made good points about goals.

This is not an exact science.

[AngryAlpaca]

What about head (not that kind )?

So we're talking about blowjobs?!
OMFG he's right! This is exactly what everyone wants to know. Wow, it doesn't seem so complicated, usually.

Ok, expanding on what Bigben2k said, it's just not that simple. Tubing is not important at first, as it depends on your block and radiator.

First, the pumps. http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.p...highlight=pump This shows how head and flow work together. The high pressure pumps GENERALLY do better, but if you've got no flow (cooligy) then your pressure goes to waste. Pressure overcomes restriction that is caused by flow. Pressure is GENERALLY more important than flow, but if you'll look at 8 (high flow, lowish head) and 5 (lowish flow, high head) you'll find that they intersect at the block pressure/flow curve, so performance is equal. Pump heat should obviously be low, but I don't think it should be your main concern. Using the pumps that we use, the heat does not become too much.

Single pass does not come small. That's all there really is to it, unless I'm mistaken. 9 3/4" * 5 3/4" is the smallest, I believe. The pressure drop of a two pass heater core is about 3" @ 1GPM (nothing, depending on the block) A chevette core is better than a BIX because it is larger, and I believe it has a higher fin density. It is also cheaper. BIX's and Thermochills are made for PC radiators, and they'll fit better than a heater core (more than twice the price, and less than half the performance...) A shroud is really good, as it directs flow everywhere on the core, reduces backpressure, and generally increases flow. The recommended size is 1.13" A push/pull fan setup is obviously the best, and the other two options should be equal, or close enough that we can't measure.

Pumps provide pressure through a system. Pressure drop is the lowering of that pressure, so the pump can not overcome resistance as well. Pressure drop is a "square relationship" to flow, which means that pressure drop is x(y^2), "x" being the pressure drop at a certain flow, and "y" being the current flow. So, if the pressure drop is 12" at 1.5GPM, it will be 48" at 3GPM, because 12(2[twice the flow]^2) equals 48. The pump graph I linked to shows this as well. If you choose a restrictive block (MCW6000 comes to mind first) the pressure drop of your tubing and radiator matter MUCH, MUCH less. If you choose a Maze 4, however, and couple that with 3/8" tubing, your flow will drop like a stone. Remember, resistances add up, and 5' of 1/2" tubing will offer 2" of drop, while 5' of 3/8" will offer 6". A heater core offers ~3". 3" plus 3.3" for the Maze 4, plus 2" will offer 8.3" of resistance at 1GPM, meaning high flow. Using 3/8" tubing, however, offers 12.3" at the same flow. The flow will drop by a lot. However, using a WW (20" of drop) a heater core, and 1/2" tubing will offer 25", and using 3/8" will offer 29". Not a large percentage difference there, and so it probably won't affect your performance very much.

GPU and NB blocks are a lot like the tubing. With a WW, they won't affect your flow by very much, but with a Maze 4, your flow is reduced drastically. Low resistance is almost always better in these cases, as the purpose of your cooling system is primarily your CPU, and then your GPU. The NB should either be aircooled, or you can put a Maze 4 NB block on that.

Anything can remove the amount of heat anything puts out, except a lot of things are bad at it. The radiator is assigned a thermal resistance rating in degrees Celcius per watt, so for every watt that is put in, the temperature will increase. A heater core offers a thermal resistance of ~0.024C/W, and a CPU offers around 100W. 100W*0.024C/W equals a 2.4C increase in temperature. A GPU offers around 30W, and a NB 10W. They won't affect your water temperature very much.

The CPU block choice remains the same in either situation, as that is your primary coolee.

I don't really know about the reservoir thing, but I remain adament that it won't affect performance very much if at all.

[bigben2k]

Oh, one more tip: airflow through the rad is critical: it's going to bump you up from the amateurs.

[AngryAlpaca]

LMAO! That's awesome.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

Oh, one more tip: airflow through the rad is critical: it's going to bump you up from the amateurs.

Hey that mobo looks familiar!

[psychofunk]

I have actually been water cooling for about a year now. What brought all this up are my recent upgrades which have affected my system a bit more drastically then I had anticipated. I really feel like I have got to go back to square one because choosing components based on what everyone says is the best does not help me as things change. There is a new block and I want it! New pump I want it! Why? I have no idea why I am just a crackhead!!!

I started out with a danner mag drive 3, a Z4 CPu block and a chevette heatercore all running through 1/2" tubing. Upgraded to a Maze 3, then a Dtek WW the day they came out. Now most recently I actually swapped rads and added a Maze4 GPU block and a Zchip NB block.

This post is basically two things me trying to get an answer to support my crackhead upgrading behavior and to actually understand why the heck I am doing something in my system. I see the new Maze4 NB block and everyone says hey it is less restictive that Zchip sucks. I wanna get it, because that is the answer to all my problems. Then its I need a new and stronger pump. No I need the BIX. I am gonna start breaking things next (I have a bad temper)

I see the new platinum (I am being sarcastic here) RipDX, then oh oh there is this new fugly kid on the block that is supposed to kick arse. All of this because I am trying to figure out what happened to my temps when I got a larger core, modded it to be single pass, added 2 blocks, 5 more feet of hose, reconfigured the location of components and re tubed my entire system. Must be the restrictive blocks, hell throw money at it, that is the best my brain can come up with.

Problem is I am poor and I really need to understand what it is that I am doing so that I can make informed decisions. No more of hey guys what is the best block for a multi block setup? I want to understand what makes a block good or not good or only good for this type of setup. I want to know what is gonna happen if I add tubing. Angry hit on it, only problem is my brain started to hurt and even though he spelled out the formula I still don't understand what happened. I need a watercooling tutor :shrug:

Heck this thread is really all pHaestus' fault, where are you man? He said to me that he choose his Innovatek block exactly because of the particulars in his setup (that is not verbatum). Then there is a comment he made in a waterblock review that is along the lines of we cannot read too much into one of his charts because of blah blah blah (more science stuff). I want to know what he knows because as far as I have ever seen the innovatek blocks are not even on any radar around here. When someone posts "whats the best block" I have yet to see innovatek mentioned. Then to make it worse they use 3/8" barbs which is like the mortal enemy of all American water coolers. Only those Euros (I am being sarcastic please don't get pissed all you local ProC Euros-you know us silly americans always thing bigger is better-even though it is ) use that whimpy 3/8" & 1/4" tubing.

It is just like you guys say, this is not a science but it sure would be nice to know in simple terms how things work or at least the most commonly shared opinion, right now I feel like I have never water cooled before (where in the hell is that emoticon that smashes his head against a brick wall --- insert here). Anyways thanks for the comments and keep em coming because I want to get it, at least a little bit

psycho
aka homer simpson

[trit187]

if you want more info on pumps there is alot from cather here:
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...hreadid=242651

i'll insert his graph but i recomend reading his comments and other peoples on the subject, really helped my understanding. Pay attention to the amount of heat each pump puts into the water vs flow rates and head.

[AngryAlpaca]

Oh you're having temperature problems. That's entirely different. It's your temperature measuring primarily. To get a decent understanding, try looking here. It does some decent explaining at some points, so I think you'll get a fair amount of understanding. pHaestus' system is probably irrelevant, unless he uses a different pump than his test pump. His pump is insane, so the restriction of a European block wouldn't be an issue.

[superart]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

Oh, one more tip: airflow through the rad is critical: it's going to bump you up from the amateurs.

<refer to Pic>

I was thinking of doing a setup like that, but where do u put the psu?

Originally Posted by jaydee

Hey that mobo looks familiar!

trusty ol' 8rda+

[bigben2k]

The PSU conveniently fits in two 5 1/4 bays. Some chopping may be required...

The dead mobo is one kindly donated by JayDee116, so that I can cut the socket out to use on the testbench. I included it here for the purpose of the picture.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by superart

trusty ol' 8rda+

8K7A+ One of 5 that I had.

[psychofunk]

Okay that was some good info. Now how about rads, multiple blocks, resevoirs, airtraps, maximising flow, flow vs head and anthing else you think is important. BTW, thanks to all those that take the time, much appreciated.

[AngryAlpaca]

Check out www.thermal-management-testing.com it explains almost everything, although some comments/blocks/radiators are severly outdated. After you go through that most of your questions will be answered, but you'll have new ones.

[bigben2k]

You might consider picking your battles here: you're getting into some pretty small details that you may want to just drop. Otherwise, we'll tell you to search the forums, then formulate a question.

I think that at this point, you'd be best to brush up on pumps. Here's an article by Dave (Myv65) which is excellent.
http://amdmb.com/article-display.php?ArticleID=179

[Garrik]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

You might consider picking your battles here: you're getting into some pretty small details that you may want to just drop. Otherwise, we'll tell you to search the forums, then formulate a question.

I think that at this point, you'd be best to brush up on pumps. Here's an article by Dave (Myv65) which is excellent.
http://amdmb.com/article-display.php?ArticleID=179

Great article. I found two others in the series, but the last one (on coolant) indicates there are more, but I can't find them. Did he write any further articles?

:edit: to remove new guy being unfamiliar with linkage page.

So, some great reading on the linkage page, including the article above. Looks like the new stuff has slowed somewhat. Any new stuff people have been waiting to submit to the linkage page?