Die sim design and heating elements

[Fragger56]

im kinda new here, been reading alot though. ive been planning to make a die sim for a little while now, ive tried to step this up recently with the creation ofmy site that a few of my friends and I setup(www.x-tremeoc.com) got some stuff lined up te get reviewed from some less well known companies and got alotta local interst (there arent that many asian sites/places intrested in this kinda thing but there are quite a few overclockers over here).

so ive decided to make this die sim a reality, its gonna be something like the overclockers.com one, basically a big rectangular block of copper with a barton sized contact patch, now ive run into a problem. where in the heck am i suppossed to get the heating elements from?

i was origionally planning on using these "Minco #HK5578" heating elements but i have no way of getting them, i will be in indiana over the summer and plan to be making the thing there. now after a bit of reading around ive noticed that the watlow cartridge heaters quite commonly used also and am currently looking into them, so would anyone happen to know if i could find some of these in indiana or order them online somewhere?

also how much do die sims usually cost in general? i only mean the chunk of copper and the heaters though, not including power supplies as i can probably put togther one myself (dad is a electrican and has made his own audio amps that put out 2000+watts of power and if he cant make one i can probably find one for pretty cheap) finally, could someone point me to a decent thermometer/ thermocouple thingy that i could use to work out temps/ C/W?

[bigben2k]

Welcome to ProCooling!

I believe Watlow makes the Firerod heater cartridge that's been our best find.

Otherwise, I found a manufacturer in Europe (thanks to my contacts): http://www.ivaldi.fr/

[Fragger56]

thanks bigben

Ive been looking at those watlo cartridge heatersbut they seem a bit on the overkill side, reading through there catalouge's the smallest ones are 400W units. i was origionally planning to use either 4 50w heaters or 2 100w heaters, and wouldnt a pair of these things potentially provide a more even heat load?

and would anyone know how much these cost? and if i can find a reseller in the western/central USA?

thanks

[bigben2k]

You're gonna make me look, aren't you?

http://www.watlow.com/

The 400W figure is a maximum power density, not an actual measurement of the cartridge power. BTW, it's ok to underpower a cartridge (it'll give you more room when the CPU power output grows ).

The smallest heater I saw (and I was barely looking) was rated to 360W. I'm pretty sure that there are smaller ones, but you'd have to contact them for a catalog.

[Groth]

I use cartridge heaters from Omega Engineering. Despite the fact that I live really close to Watlow's headquarters, Omega's were easier to get.

Lots of good flow and temperature stuff from Omega, too.

[Fragger56]

thanks again bigben, ive now found several places that should have the heaters in indiana

mind if i ask how these things are usually attached? just drill holes that are as close in size to teh diameter of teh heater and slide it in? do i need to use TIM on them? and any recommendations on thermal probes/thermocouple's and reader thingamijigs for them?

also could someone tell me where teh best places to put thermocouples would be? ive read through bill adams testing site thingy but i still dont quite get it and i am definately not gonna drill holes in my RBX or the Cascade taht wil be lent to me for testing from a friend.

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by Fragger56

thanks again bigben, ive now found several places that should have the heaters in indiana

mind if i ask how these things are usually attached? just drill holes that are as close in size to teh diameter of teh heater and slide it in? do i need to use TIM on them? and any recommendations on thermal probes/thermocouple's and reader thingamijigs for them?

also could someone tell me where teh best places to put thermocouples would be? ive read through bill adams testing site thingy but i still dont quite get it and i am definately not gonna drill holes in my RBX or the Cascade taht wil be lent to me for testing from a friend.

Kewl, maybe you can share some of them with us!

Yeah, drill a hole in the copper mass, use a TIM, that's it.

Some people use thermocouples, a few prefer RTDs (Bill and I?).

I had a thread going about placement of the cartridges, which turned out to be nonsense, but in there is a bit about placement of probes.

Here it is!

[RoboTech]

Hey Ben,

We used to have a thread here on PC.c (back when you were first starting the WBTA) that listed sources for parts and materials. I remember putting up detailed info on how and where to order the cartridge heaters but I can't find that thread anymore. Do you know where it is?

I still have the info (at home) which I can re-post if needed.

[Fragger56]

@ben i got this of of watlow's site:
ASH EQUIPMENT
ATTN CASSANDRA
155 OSWALT AVENUE
BATAVIA, IL 60510 Phone Number: 630-406-0300
Fax: 630-406-0595

Web Address: http://www.ashequipment.com
Market Focus: General Industrial, Heat Treat, Plastics, Process, Semiconductor

GARCOR SUPPLY
PO BOX 591
FRANKLIN, IN 46131-0591 Phone Number: 317-736-6748
Fax: 317-736-6866

Web Address: http://www.garcor.com
Market Focus: General Industrial, Heat Treat, Plastics, Process, Semiconductor

GARCOR SUPPLY
PO BOX 1377
MARION, IN 46952 Phone Number: 765-664-0601
Fax: 765-664-7271

Web Address: http://www.garcor.com
Market Focus: General Industrial, Heat Treat, Plastics, Process, Semiconductor

THERMTECH SYSTEMS INCORPORATED
PO BOX 38
CHESTERFIELD, IN 46017 Phone Number: 765-378-0705
Fax: 765-378-0902

Web Address: http://www.thermtechsystems.com
Market Focus: General Industrial, Heat Treat, Plastics, Process, Semiconductor

Watlow Sales Offices for 47906
WATLOW INDIANA Click for Map
PO BOX 517
160 W. Carmel Dr. Suite 204
CARMEL, IN 46032 Phone: 317-575-8932
Fax: 317-575-9478

@Robotech do you mind posting up that info on where to order the things?
the more places i could possibily get them from the better, you never know who has em for cheaper

also bigben i just read through that thread you linked to, what would you think would be a good distance to place teh thermocouple/RTD under the contact patch? 1mm mabe? or should i just put it as close to teh edge of the contact patch as possible?
and what is a RTD? how much would one of these cost for a whole setup(sensor/sensors and reader)?

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by RoboTech

Hey Ben,

We used to have a thread here on PC.c (back when you were first starting the WBTA) that listed sources for parts and materials. I remember putting up detailed info on how and where to order the cartridge heaters but I can't find that thread anymore. Do you know where it is?

I still have the info (at home) which I can re-post if needed.

Here: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=7862

(You have to reset the default view in the Testing Forum, from 1 month to 1 year).

[Fragger56]

i just skimmed ofer the offerings from that omega place.... RTD's are waaay too expensive for me!
im now looking at thermocouples. what kind of thermocouples would be good to 0.1°c accuracy? type K ones? also ill need something to read em, would anyone have any suggestions? im trying to keep teh cost down. im hoping to not spend too much over $100 usd on temperature monitoring equipment at the moment allthough taht may change.

[bigben2k]

Look at RTD elements.

As for temp reading, I'm still looking into 24 bit DACs, but the best bet would be a converter: I haven't found a temp controller with 0.01 resolution.

[Fragger56]

seems like ive found teh perfect heater from watlow!

length voltage wattage watt density part number
5" 120 200 29 W/in2 J5A85

now all i need to do is get two of these and a prowesupply!

would anyone have any recommendations on where to get a 120v max variable voltage 2A(minimum)-4A powersupply?

[bigben2k]

Consider using a DC source: it's easier to keep stable.

There's a fellow that volunteered to act as a middleman for used variable PS (see WBTA forums).

5"? Awfully long, no?

[Fragger56]

well with the powersupply i meant a DC one i was forgetfull and forgot to say that though
would 5 inch long heaters be too long? i was thinking something around 3-5" long, the 5 inch ones seemed perfect as that could do up to 200W a piece so a single one would be enough but i was planing on going for 2 in parallell for a max power output of 400W.

mabe ill test my friend novashine's SP-94 with a 400W heatload and see how it fares since he is also going the way of watercooling.

also is it a bad idea to get used thermometers? like a used Fluke 2190A?
as a new one costs around $395 it seemed like a good one as i only need a resoloution of about 0.1°c which is all i need, it also takes pretty much any type of thermocouple.

why would getting RTD's be better? they seem to be waaay too expensive for me as the cheapest RTD elements are $45 according to omega.com

any good places to get a used Fluke 2190A? it seems like what i need.

Thanks

[bigben2k]

eBay is a good source. The trick is finding one that's got a current calibration.

I've got a single 2" long 140 (or 160 Watt?) and I think it's pretty long, for the purpose.

0.1 deg C resolution might be fine for you. I'm still after 0.01, to calculate the power that the water block picks up. RTDs aren't really necessary, because I'll be running them in differential (i.e. I need delta T, not actual temp) but the heat die temp needs to be accurate.

There's a lot of factors that go into selecting a temp probe. Accuracy, repeatability, response time,... then there's the whole calibration thing. pHaestus is working with 0.1 deg resolution, and it's limiting him in measuring the power pickup of a water block, because the delta T at 2.0 gpm is getting pretty close to the 0.1 deg C resolution.

Not easy to do 0.01.

[Fragger56]

typically how much would it cost to calibrate a temp sensor? and is it possible to do it myself?

so you are saying that RTD's are better for getting absoloute temperatures? but thermocouples are perfectly fine if im just looking for temperature differences?

i was hoping that i would be able to get a C/W value outta this easily but if im understanding you right that will mean ill have to get RTD probes instead of thermocouples for decently good C/W values?

[bigben2k]

I'll be using a precision mercury thermometer (+/- 0.1 deg C) to calibrate my probes. The 0.01 probes are just going to get the same water cup test as pHaestus.

Yeah, I have to recomend an RTD for the heat die, but I'm sure others have different opinions.