Beginner ? about Anti-Freeze

[ohl]

Ok I’m about ready to take the plunge (bad choice of words) into water-cooling and have a simple question. I will be using the Asetek KT03-L30 kit and it does include a small amount of Anti-Algae Fluid (other than ¾ of it leaked all over the kit in shipping).

I see people mentioning they use anti-freeze. Is this plain old automotive anti-freeze AKA Zerex, Prestone or the likes? And also what ratio of distilled water to anti-freeze is about right?

If a person uses anti-freeze is some sort Anti-Algae Fluid still needed?

Can you tell I’m new at this? Your help is appreciated.

[fhorst]

anti-freeze is not the best solution! It's usely mixed with some cleaning stuff (soap e.g.), and you don't want that in your system.

To start, the rest of your bottle will do. Just make sure you use destilled water. Sent an email to the person you bought it from, and explain your situation. If they are any good, they will ship you a bottle free of charge.
If not you "need" to buy some.

Running a few days "without/ short on" addadtive won't hurt.

If I'm correct the bottle that ships with the Asetek is enough for 2 fillings.

[Boli]

Anti freeze isn't the best solution - by far.

But most people I think just want something to stop crap growing in the system to make it easier to look after. I'm on "toliet duck" ATM (and why not?) and surprisingly my temps (after the foaming went down) are an improvement on the antifreeze solution I ran before.

But more importantly I don't have to take my system apart to scrub out of the algae and/or change all the tubing.

~Boli

[nikhsub1]

Hmm, I run anti-freeze, about a 10% mixture. I can not detect any temp difference between that and straignt H20. Yes it is true that AF sucks at heat transfer, however, I believe that with the temps we are dealing with (very low) there will be no measureable difference. The AF keeps my system clean and growth free.

[pHaestus]

I also run 10-20% antifreeze mix in my test setup and in my PCs. I have had an aluminum/copper waterblock corrode before and don't want it to happen again.

[brucoman]

I used a 10% AF to 90% DW when I had a alum block in. Now I am experimenting with 90% DW with 10% Meth mix.

I did not care for auto anti-freeze... green color absorbed by Tygon
I did not care for Dow Dowfrost anti-freeze... bad for PVC
So now it's meth.... bad for me

[Toiletduck]

Originally Posted by Boli

I'm on "toliet duck" ATM (and why not?) and surprisingly my temps (after the foaming went down) are an improvement on the antifreeze solution I ran before.

~Boli

Guess I have to try using toilet duck too

[bobkoure]

AFAIK the issue with using antifreeze is that it's mostly glycol (propylene or etheline) with an anti corrosion package and (usually) an anti-micro-boil package (water wetter, surfactant, however you want to think about it).
Glycol has a lower specific heat than water, so it can carry fewer BTUs per gallon (or however you want to think about thermal units and volume). If you put in little enough that there's no problem with specific heat, you may not be adding enough of the anti corrosion package.
I'm unclear as to whether the water wetter does anything positive or negative - I'm pretty sure we're not going to be having problems with micro boiling even without it.
There are automotive cooling products designed without glycol (glycol is incredibly slippery and it's pretty much banned from any vehicle on the race track because a spill could cause accidents days later at the next rain even though it seemed to be cleaned up). These products do include water wetter as racing engines are certainly hot enough to cause micro boiling - but otherwise, they're pretty much just anti-corrosion. I've been using Zerex (now part of Valvoline) "Racing Coolant" for a few years, in a number of w/c'ed PCs (mixed metals - Swiftech blocks - but these are hard anodized) with no problems.
Oh - it's a pinkish color, which you may not like. Automotive coolant additives are color coded for reasons that don't matter here...
Finally - I don't think automotive coolant additive packages include any kind of anti-algae - just not an issue there (or maybe the glycol is toxic to algae). I would have expected the 100C temps to do the trick, though...

[lolito_fr]

glycol is incredibly slippery

It's lube properties must be useful for pumps...
put a few hours on the mtbf perhaps?

[arterius]

I am using citric acid in my all copper loop. I am running this mix for over 10 months and everything seems fine.

[z3scott]

Originally Posted by bobkoure

AFAIK the issue with using antifreeze is that it's mostly glycol (propylene or etheline) with an anti corrosion package and (usually) an anti-micro-boil package (water wetter, surfactant, however you want to think about it).
Glycol has a lower specific heat than water, so it can carry fewer BTUs per gallon (or however you want to think about thermal units and volume). If you put in little enough that there's no problem with specific heat, you may not be adding enough of the anti corrosion package.
I'm unclear as to whether the water wetter does anything positive or negative - I'm pretty sure we're not going to be having problems with micro boiling even without it.
There are automotive cooling products designed without glycol (glycol is incredibly slippery and it's pretty much banned from any vehicle on the race track because a spill could cause accidents days later at the next rain even though it seemed to be cleaned up). These products do include water wetter as racing engines are certainly hot enough to cause micro boiling - but otherwise, they're pretty much just anti-corrosion. I've been using Zerex (now part of Valvoline) "Racing Coolant" for a few years, in a number of w/c'ed PCs (mixed metals - Swiftech blocks - but these are hard anodized) with no problems.
Oh - it's a pinkish color, which you may not like. Automotive coolant additives are color coded for reasons that don't matter here...
Finally - I don't think automotive coolant additive packages include any kind of anti-algae - just not an issue there (or maybe the glycol is toxic to algae). I would have expected the 100C temps to do the trick, though...

What ratio are you using? I'm going to try the Zerex on a new system and would like a suggestion as to proper ratio to try. I've got my son's system running Swiftech's Hydrx w/o any issues so far. (I flushed and re-charged it after six months to send him off to college.)

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by z3scott

What ratio are you using?

I'm using 10% - as specified by Valvoline.
I expect I could use less - but I wanted a full dose of the anti-corrosion package.
This stuff is also sold at cooltechnica - and they specify 5%, so maybe that's OK.
All that said, the Swiftech stuff is purpose-designed, so it'd be hard to go wrong with that, whereas using Racing Coolant is more of a DIY "this stuff is designed for a somewhat-similar application" kind of thing - not as out there as using toilet duck, however

As far as glycol extending pump life, hmmm... I don't think any of the Eheim aquarium pumps were designed with glycol in mind - and these have been very reliable for me, using 90/10 distilled water / racing coolant.

[z3scott]

Originally Posted by bobkoure

I'm using 10% - as specified by Valvoline.
I expect I could use less - but I wanted a full dose of the anti-corrosion package.
This stuff is also sold at cooltechnica - and they specify 5%, so maybe that's OK.
All that said, the Swiftech stuff is purpose-designed, so it'd be hard to go wrong with that, whereas using Racing Coolant is more of a DIY "this stuff is designed for a somewhat-similar application" kind of thing - not as out there as using toilet duck, however

Thanks for the feedback. I don't need the UV capability of the Hydrx and spending the $ for 2 oz's of the Hydrx (plus shipping) vs finding the the Zerex locally seems more appealing to me. I have to agree and believe the Hydrx is a good product though. Don't have a clue what "toliet duck" is :shrug:

FWIW Arterius and "citric acid"... it is commonly used as an anti-oxidant in circuit board manufacturing usually in conjunction with 5-10% sulfuric acid as part of the pre-clean process of the copper clad laminates prior to photo resist application. The citric acid is typically 1-3%. It does bond on some sort of molecular level to the copper however and thus might effect thermal transfer properties eventually. We had to watch our customers habits on concentrations used and dwell times because it could inhibit our dry film photo-resist adhesion. Don't know what if any impact might be expected in our application.

[DrCR]

I'll probably be using about 5% AF in my next setup. The problem with glycol is its viscosity, something Cathar's jet "Storm" block dosen't like.

I also plan on using adding a buffer and indicator to keep the pH were I want it and to be albe to visually see when my pH is dropping beyond acceptable levels. Still have to research what I want in particular though.


I doubt I'll add an antibiotic. It probably wouldn't completely eradicate the bacteria and then you have bacteria resistant to that particular antibiotic and would proceed to grow abated.

This is why if you're ever on antibiotics, you’re on it for quite sometime. The doctors want to make sure all the bacteria is completely killed. If you cut the time short and some bacteria survived, you might then have to resort to a different, more powerful antibiotic. The same principle holds true to watercooling.

So I would stay away from antibiotics and go with a solution that doesn’t kill bacteria, just makes it a very hard place for bacteria to survive, much less grow. If you do go for an antibiotic route, make sure you use one sufficiently powerful and of a sufficient concentration. Otherwise you’ll just be making a antibiotic resistant-bacteria breeding ground.



DrCR


__________

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by z3scott

Don't have a clue what "toliet duck" is :shrug:

AFAIK it is a product used to clean toilet bowls (squirt it on, let it sit for a while, flush). The bottle's shaped so it can squirt up-side-down and one brand has taken advantage of that to make their packaging look a bit like a duck. As I remember, squirt-on toilet bowl cleaner is typically dilute hydrochloric acid in a gel base (so it doesn't run off) - I may be wrong about what's in Toilet Duck(TM) specifically and I don't know if they were kidding about using it, but I have no intention of trying it myself...

[DrCR]

Isn't something acidic the last thing you would want to put in your loop?!

[z3scott]

Originally Posted by DrCR

Isn't something acidic the last thing you would want to put in your loop?!

If I had my druthers (technical term eh ) I would prefer mildly acidic versus alakline. Caustic alkaline solutions can make a nice shiny fresh copper surface ugly black with smut. Obiously keeping the concentrations low either way is the safe bet.

Nobody has any Zerex Racing Super Coolant in stock in my vicinity so while ordering some other things I picked up some additional Hydrx@$3.99ea vs the $8-$10 some places want.

From the Hydrx label:
"Heat Transfer & Corrosion Inhibitor....
Contains Ethylene Glycol - Do not drink"

I'm going to be running with a Swifty 6002 block a D-Tek Pro 120 rad, Aqua Extreme and just a couple brass fittings so should be fine. I still may order some Zerex SRC to check out at some point.

[DrCR]

So you mean slightly basic is not superior to neutral (pH 7.0)? Or is either slightly acidic or basic better than neutral? I got to look into corrosion again. General Chem seems so long ago. lol But I thought a guide here said you wanted to keep your coolant on the basic side.


A little off topic, but you guys know about indicators right? It's the stuff that changes colors depending on the pH (and what particular indicator you use). Well I was reading during lab assistance work (got pretty boring in lab today) and apparently there's florescent indicators. In other words the color they emit when exposed to UV, or in some cases a sufficient concentration of visible light, changes depending on the pH. (A nonflorescent indicator would just change color.)

So I could get an indicator for the pH I would like and if my coolant starts looking greenish instead of blue, for example, I know my coolant is on its way out.

What do you guys think? Any fellow chemists out thre? (I'm working on a BA). I would add an appropriate buffer if I went this route to extend the coolants life.


DrCR


__________

[z3scott]

Originally Posted by DrCR

So you mean slightly basic is not superior to neutral (pH 7.0)? Or is either slightly acidic or basic better than neutral? I got to look into corrosion again. General Chem seems so long ago. lol But I thought a guide here said you wanted to keep your coolant on the basic side.

DrCR


__________

Me Bad After mulling it over in the empty space between my ears and doing a little searching and reading:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...ral+acid+basic

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...7&postcount=59

I'd have to rescind my acidic comment . The "battery effect" and algae growth are certainly going to be more likely in an acidic environment. Copper attack (microetching) will be minimal unless the ph gets very low. Trouble is, high ph caustic solutions won't help either. Bleach as pointed out in the 2nd link is loves to attack aluminum and stainless.

General Chem... I thought he was 2nd in command back in..... better not start dating things back in the past. I'm definitely not able to find my way through the periodic table.

[DrCR]

Originally Posted by z3scott

Me Bad...

Whew, that's OK. You were scaring me for little while there.

[z3scott]

Originally Posted by DrCR

Whew, that's OK. You were scaring me for little while there.

Sorry. I don't think you need tear your system down immediately though if you find your ph is 6.5 either.