Thermal Mgmt education

[BillA]

occasionally I'm asked about working in the field, my answer is always about education and experience;
the proposed curriculum description may be of interest
http://engr.sjsu.edu/ndejong/ASEE%20...Management.pdf

[bigben2k]

...and the lab's page: http://engr.sjsu.edu/ndejong/Electronics_Cooling.htm

Nice one.

[BillA]

kinda curious
I graduated from SJSU in the 70's, but they sure had none of this then
Lothar from SJSU also (20 yrs later)

EDIT
there are 4 lab experiment links, profitable reading for many I suspect

[Brians256]

Interesting link, Bill. I wasn't aware of any good focused programs on thermal management for semiconductors. Although, I knew there had to be some even if it was on-the-job training by AMD, IBM, Intel, etc...

[gmat]

In Europe a Master in Electrical Engineering program includes a bit of thermal management, although it's very theorical and quite not practical (and only passive air cooling is talked about, at least it was the case for me). Includes passive radiator sizing, fin spacing, and all calculations around that. I must confess at the time i found it boring (as always if i'd get back there now i'd find it most interesting...)

[Brians256]

Gmat, grass is greener.... What we don't know or didn't do is almost always more interesting.

BTW, just read some of those lab experiments. Nicely done. Those are entry level things for the university students! ProCoolers should have been doing those already.

[TerraMex]

to complement:
here (pt) any engineering degree requires some understanding of thermal managment (some, not deep).
All degrees have thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, system control (applied).
material mechanics is specific though.
we have some phase change systems, heatpumps, small thermal tunnel and such.
theoretical mainly, but the simulators to mess with,
made thermo and fluids much more interesting.

[gmat]

During my Engineer course (that's after the EE Master, 3 years) i had courses in Thermodynamics (just everything, ad nauseum), Fluid mechanics (statics & dynamics) but it was Physics that tied everything in a meaningful manner (and a bit more practical). What is more important is basic laws of thermodynamics, and energy / heat transfer laws. Once one has understood principles of energy conservation and heat transfer, thermal management systems are easier to understand. It's easier said now of course :P But youngsters who want to step in the OCing and watercooling game should listen to their physics teacher a bit more...

[TerraMex]

interesting enough, here was the other way,
physics was given in a more general way, thermo and fluids tied previous knowledge, themo has a fluids component , and fluids has a thermo one , and so on. first is given physics, then thermo and on the second year, fluids.
can't complaint.

[gmat]

The catch is Physics was in 1st year, and thermo etc. in 2nd year. Totally out of order... Here each engineer school chooses how its courses are ordered - there are mandatory common courses for all engineers in France (the title of 'engineer' here is not easy to get, a bit like IEEE in the US) and 'specialty' courses, but everything can be reordered at will by the school board. So it's a bit random, hit & miss i'd say. It's really hard to keep a good level of interest *and* a progressive learning curve. That's why for example i really hated thermodynamics and heat transfer... Couldn't see how it could relate to real life problems, for me it was just a bunch of abstract formulaes.

[TerraMex]

i know what you mean, here is not that different , depends also on the school and what they think "is right".
However, in the same school, "base courses" (chemistry, physics, maths) are all the same, and given at (usually) the same time to any eng. degree.
But, the exact same degree, in a different school can be taught, and usually is, and the courses rearranged in a different manner that compatability between "theorically equal" degrees becomes a problem; lack of an unifed base. Same issue when outsourcing engineers to other EU countries.
also much harder to change university or change engineering degree half way, because of that system, without loosing time, and redo courses, in the process.

the Bologna Principles (IMO), aren't really helping.

EDIT:--

Physics makes perfect sense in the first year because the majority of it is given in highschool, same as chemistry, math. It works on that, and expands.

[Brians256]

Abstract formulas.... that's why I never liked differential equations, useful as they are in modelling. But, I agree with gmat: physics is what helps thermodynamics make sense because it ties into a physical model you can better grasp (mentally).

On a side note, there was an advanced development meeting here at work yesterday and it was amazing how many mechanical engineers hated thermal management in college and tried to stay away from it. I guess it is like databases for computer scientists. For example, in dealing with a temp measurement, I had more practical grasp of the subject than 75% of the mechanical engineers in the meeting. I'm a software engineer, for goodness sake! As a hobbyist I shouldn't have more experience in thermal measurement than professional engineers!

[BillA]

the typical hobbyist is not at procooling I daresay, and any here long are force fed reality (how to get a real #)
you're a geek now

[Brians256]

Bill, in many ways, I wish we could get someone like you to come in as a consultant and explain a practical route to get a proper number. For a professional solution, you can fiddle around for 6-9 months re-inventing the wheel or bring someone in who's already been there.

[BillA]

you know the definition of an expert . . . .
over 500mi from home with a briefcase
let me know

the difficulty with a consultant is that the skillset may not be learned in-house

[Brians256]

I know all about the pitfalls of consulting. But, it seems pervasive (in my small sample) attitude that temperature is both voodoo magic and unpleasant to deal with. I guess motors and sheetmetal is more fun for ME's?

[gmat]

Near where i live, one can follow a "Mesures Physiques" (would be physics & measures ? not sure how to translate) degree, that's a tech level. A friend of mine went there and then became an apprentice engineer at National Instruments, then when having his degree in engineering he became the lead manager for the National Instruments Portuguese agency (TerraMex: he's in Lisboa, feel free to MP me if you want to meet him he's a long time friend of mine). If one wants to get into the business of testing / measuring stuff, i think it's the best path to follow. I don't know if there are many equivalents in EU or US, here in France he had to go to Paris as there's only one school delivering that engineering degree. The program is tailored around measuring all physical or chemical processes. It's mostly lab work of course, ya got to like wearing white coats and gloves all day long. I don't remember all the courses OTOH, but they include all the basics, plus a lot of chemistry.

[BillA]

Brian
inclination and interests, fancy solns can be bought too
http://www.delta-tcompany.com/deltat/index.php

[TerraMex]

mine has a strong measurement ( metrology and instrumentation ) component,
althou is not focused on such, it is one of the exits, as several ex-colegues of mine currently work on such jobs, but it is necessary sometimes to go "the extra mile" to do so, never the less, much easier to "get in" than other engineering degrees around. however there is still a need for more on that particular area.
we waste too much time on courses than simply have no pratical application and are an agglomerate of others, with no added value. 4th and 5th year is filled with such. Only optics and final projects are interesting (imo).

(TerraMex: he's in Lisboa, feel free to MP me if you want to meet him he's a long time friend of mine)

might take you up on that later, i'll PM if i have the time (i'm not in Lisbon).

(...)voodoo magic and unpleasant to deal with.

yes, unpleasant, and time consuming, i also stay away from it if i can.
spent a few months on labwork with temperature mainly,
althou it was semi-automated (love that labview), still took hours for a a valid single step response , in some cases.
but not voodoo. seems that ways if you dont have a clue on what you're doing.