How would you re-structure ProCooling?

Joe · 10-28-2005, 09:38 AM

Since I am just not getting the time I need to get the site work done. I just wanted to ask a simple question incase I am using the free time I have wrong in how I am going about the site.

Is ProCooling no longer a website? Just a forum? Should ProCooling be transformed into a hybrid forum/site with the forum being center stage and really just forget about formalized reviews/articles?

Turn ProCooling into a focused discussion board for high end cooling topics?

I think the chance that ProCooling will become active with reviews/articles like it was 3 years ago, is unlikely.

Also going to a more Forum centric site and community would make my life a lil easier

Input?

Cyco-Dude · 10-28-2005, 09:52 AM

well i don't think you should forget formal reviews / articles altogether. they might not come as frequently as in the past, but i'd still read them. a current waterblock, HSF (VGA HSF?) or radiator review here and now would be good, as would the occasional project that you keep talking about doing

i think you're on the right track with the forums taking a larger role of the site with user blogs / reviews / etc.

BillA · 10-28-2005, 10:29 AM

got to match resources with expectations

where are the articles going to come from ?
we have set the bar so high that 'professional quality' technical assessment and analysis is assumed
yet only a handful of individuals (and some silent companies) have this capability, and only pH contributes to procooling
procooling rode for several years on pH's back, I cannot imagine the hours he spent (untrue, I know well)
-> where are new technical articles/reviews to come from ?

is it understood that repeated accusations of bias will inhibit the release of data by others ? (sales wins over engn)
the technical people will remain because we have nothing better, outside inputs are always needed so a closed forum is about worthless

carry on Joe, you are too far outside the mainstream for 'popularity'

as an aside, what is being 'lost' is interesting:
a considerable bit of head scratching is going on regarding the assumptions made in the characterizing of components and systems
little of this will be summarized as it is known to the participants - to whom it is of interest
a shame Ben does not wish to do his codifying within procooling

maxSaleen · 10-28-2005, 06:34 PM

I have an idea, though I don't know if it is feasible.

Making the forums viewable/usable via the Blazer browser would allow those who are always on the go to participate more actively in the forums. I know I would. Plus it would be a first for the PC world (extremesystems on your handheld, anyone?)

I think reviews are still important. It seems that the difficult part is in getting samples. Expanding to air cooling would give the site a larger base for content. Compare the number of air HSFs to liquid HSs released annually. It's not even close.

jaydee · 10-28-2005, 06:37 PM

I am not against the informal forum concept. My testing is getting better but I still can't write for shit. Much rather have a work log forum that I can just post what I am doing. People sending us review samples are the main concern I have. Would a forum thread about the product be to their satisfaction or would they expect a actual article? Or do we care?

jaydee · 10-28-2005, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxSaleen

Expanding to air cooling would give the site a larger base for content. Compare the number of air HSFs to liquid HSs released annually. It's not even close.

Not a bad idea but who here has the time? We all have real full time jobs. hard enough doing what we can as it is.

Breach · 10-28-2005, 10:07 PM

The one thing ive noticed about site like this one, is that without fresh front page content to get people to the site, new or old, the site fades out. I think procooling has vast potential as the only true extreme cooling forum where experts like Cathar (and others) are really involved. But there is deffinatly a lack of new reviews and articles. With a fresh face and new content I think procooling coud come alive as the difinitive source for what pro is all about.

Granted, most of us do all have real world jobs, time is always an issue. It will take either people with extreme detication to the sites growth, or find a way to make procooling your job.

In the end I would say just getting some fresh content would be a good start, bring new people to the site.

jaydee · 10-28-2005, 10:35 PM

I wonder what peoples idea of extreme cooling is? I have seen that phrase used toward ProCooling twice today. I personally have seen hardly any completed and not very many incompleted "extreme" cooling things done here.

IMO water cooling is far from extreme. Water cooling has been used since the beginning of time (sweat!). Hardly extreme.

IMO extreme is TEC, phase change, liquid NO2 and what not... Don't see that here hardly at all.

I would have thought ProCooling meant "professional grade cooling techniques". Not only extreme but also air, water and whatever else works.

Not sure what Joe originally used the ProCooling name for.

As for content what would you suggest?

jaydee · 10-30-2005, 08:36 PM

I would suggest finding your staff and creating a staff discussion forum. Get an idea of what they are going to focus on and make their work easily viewable on the front page. Maybe a more in depth version of the view threads script you have now. Possible one block for each staff members work log. Their work logs can possible take place of articles and reviews.

Shame there isn't more input in this thread?

Joe · 10-30-2005, 10:34 PM

We have a staff? holy shit when did this happen?

we do have a staff forum, just no one in it.

jaydee · 10-30-2005, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe

We have a staff? holy shit when did this happen?

we do have a staff forum, just no one in it.

lol,

I was talking more of who you asked to join the staff for the site redesign. As far as I know nothing more has happed there.

Joe · 10-30-2005, 10:42 PM

well the lack of time, or drive to take time away from other areas of interest, really makes me not want to dive in hard to get people to help out if I cant promise that I will have time to pay attention. We have lost pH to WoW also, so theres really no one at the helm currently.

I work on stuff here and there, and hopefully now that winters coming I will have some free time.

jaydee · 10-30-2005, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe

well the lack of time, or drive to take time away from other areas of interest, really makes me not want to dive in hard to get people to help out if I cant promise that I will have time to pay attention. We have lost pH to WoW also, so theres really no one at the helm currently.

I work on stuff here and there, and hopefully now that winters coming I will have some free time.

I hear you there. That is about the only thing I look forward to in winter is having more time on other things.

pHaestus · 10-31-2005, 01:54 PM

I should chime in.

I am currently a victim of my own pickiness. Can't get dP xmitter to work and don't have the $$ to get one Swiftech offered to donate calibrated atm. Without the dP measurements to be truthful Procooling reviews would be incomplete and inferior to stuff that's being published elsewhere (why bother then?)

This happened before I got serious about testing last time too. Then I just decided to go with what I had and do my best and I think it did ok. But don't our readers actually expect MORE than the test methods that were used for SocketA wbs?

Joe · 10-31-2005, 02:55 PM

What would it cost to get the dP xmitter up and running?

I mean maybe PC could take donations to get your rig running if the promise is that there are reviews/articles and contenty goodness.

ricecrispi · 10-31-2005, 03:44 PM

so jaydee needs some writing skills
pH needs dP xmitter (sounds kinky)
Joe needs an an extreme makeover (for his website of course)

All we need is a tornado, red shoes, flying monkeys, and a quentin tarantino remake of the wizard of oz. Anyone want to be the lead?
-----------------------------------
The site needs new articles and several people can contribute so the burden is not on pH alone. Procooling.com greatest assest is has a large number of big WCing players that are active members.
It seems many have rested their laurels and believed Wcing has reached an apex. I think there is lots to ground to cover. WCing is always changing and evolving.

Repeated test data wouldn't hurt either. We can have test data from several testers. It would help solve the problem of comparing results from different benches. We just group one set of bench test data and if onyone has conflicting data they can go back and retest or have a famous procooling flaming contest.

We still need testing to be done on vidcard waterblocks, on new rads, and
chipsets waterblocks.

Testing data will allow expansion on the interactive wb performance chart by add rad, pump, vidcard and chipset wb variables. People can come to see how certain setups will perform instead of eyeballing and guesstimation. You can advertise on this page like crazy for several vendors and not just Wcing vendors!

You can cover individual products then round them up for a big blow out comparative articles. You can do all the testing in one short span but spread out the releases of articles. Spreading out the reviews so people wanting more and come back for more. It's like getting a girl that gives it all on the first night. Do you come back for more once you got all you can get out of her? Why would you?

It's nice we got reviews on individual parts but what about covering whole kits. Have can have reviews on WCing kits. Dtek vs dangerden vs swiftech vs silverprop vs. european market stuff.

What about trying to get some european products to compare? It was nice to see the nexxos xp block. We need some international flavor. Procooling has many member across the globe. Try catering to them and not only the US based and english speaking based members.

Add links to frontpage to articles related to computer cooling and product reviews from othersites. Helps broaden focus on other types of cooling and future possiblities in cooling. Might make friends with other sites too. Also gives us firestarter material for famous flaming wars at procooling.

Add more project worklogs. coolmiester and mashie have posted worklogs and it would be great to get some dIY case modding tips and articles even if it's been done before.

The forum is active so no problem but some topics lack traffic and i think groups some of them together might help.

The forum is working but the front page needs work and we sorely needs testing data.

BTW. We need a flaming war notice on the frontpage or forum so we don't miss a good match

jaydee · 10-31-2005, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pHaestus

I should chime in.

I am currently a victim of my own pickiness. Can't get dP xmitter to work and don't have the $$ to get one Swiftech offered to donate calibrated atm. Without the dP measurements to be truthful Procooling reviews would be incomplete and inferior to stuff that's being published elsewhere (why bother then?)

This happened before I got serious about testing last time too. Then I just decided to go with what I had and do my best and I think it did ok. But don't our readers actually expect MORE than the test methods that were used for SocketA wbs?

This is why I havn't made any official test results either. I just bought a brand new Foxboro 823DP xmitter calibrated to 400" H2O or roughly 14.5PSI. However I need a DMM or something to take a reading.... I am well out of cash at the moment for such. Also need to make a new die sim.....

In the mean time I have a system build to do and parts should be here this week. Will post a thread on it when start on it.

bigben2k · 10-31-2005, 08:28 PM

Maybe this would provide some insight:
http://overclockers.com/articles1271/index02.asp

Joe · 10-31-2005, 09:58 PM

Well in a turn of weird events (not quite tot he flying monkeys level) I did some hack work on the site again tonight. like 1" closer and still 10 miles away. What I need to do is just sit down, uninterupted, and hammer on this shit for like a week. But that doesnt happen. Once I get started on something its either time for bed so I can go to work in the AM, or I am heading out the door, or friends are over... etc...

The new site will be nice, but there is a SHITLOAD of work that goes into getting 5 years of legacy data into a new site, new format, new structure.

That and I am a perfectionist, and I am not going to post the site until its done. And its not nearly to that point for me yet.

Investor · 10-31-2005, 10:22 PM

Sounds like a job for VC... (venture c-a-p-i-t-a-l) I am always drikn// drunk

HAL-9000 · 11-01-2005, 11:20 AM

Hey folks, I haven't posted here in awhile and so much has changed.

Anyways, I would like to see some evolution of Procooling, if for nothing else then to keep the current community going. I sat around here (at work no less) thinking about something to do, but really there isn't much you can do to differentiate procooling from the myriad fan-boy cooling sites. As far as articles and testing go, we could test the same waterblock everyone else tests, perhaps always better, or test HSF's, which would be very, very hard to develop a reliable methodology/test bench for.

I was thinking perhaps we could explore in our work logs the less glamorous but still meddlesome issues that plague performance cooling (using any technique, water, air..etc.). For instance, everyone in watercooling land is always complaining about mystery evaporation, gunk magically appearing in the lines...etc. Yet no one has ever explored the "why" of this occuring on any site, much less how to reliably remedy it...which is something any watercooler would be curious in.

There are more issues out there like that, that's just one example. If we did articles/worklogs on things like that, it both eliminates the need for test samples (explore problems that are universal) and is something that no other site seems to care about. Just a thought.

9mmCensor · 11-04-2005, 08:13 PM

wasn't the plan to turn it into a porn site?

k|ngp|n · 11-28-2005, 01:17 PM

Great site you guys have here. I am a regular over at xtremesystems.org, but I browse here ocasionally. Ever think of having an ln2/dryice specific forum?

Joe · 11-28-2005, 01:40 PM

9mm - That is plan B

K|ngp|n I replied to your email and yes I think we should get a forum for that setup. I mean how can web be procooling without the extreme side covered?

Joe · 11-28-2005, 01:49 PM

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=78

there you go, the Xtreme Cooling Forums is here

10-28-2005, 09:38 AM	#1
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	How would you re-structure ProCooling? Since I am just not getting the time I need to get the site work done. I just wanted to ask a simple question incase I am using the free time I have wrong in how I am going about the site. Is ProCooling no longer a website? Just a forum? Should ProCooling be transformed into a hybrid forum/site with the forum being center stage and really just forget about formalized reviews/articles? Turn ProCooling into a focused discussion board for high end cooling topics? I think the chance that ProCooling will become active with reviews/articles like it was 3 years ago, is unlikely. Also going to a more Forum centric site and community would make my life a lil easier Input? __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-30-2005, 10:34 PM	#10
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	We have a staff? holy shit when did this happen? we do have a staff forum, just no one in it. __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-30-2005, 10:42 PM	#12
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	well the lack of time, or drive to take time away from other areas of interest, really makes me not want to dive in hard to get people to help out if I cant promise that I will have time to pay attention. We have lost pH to WoW also, so theres really no one at the helm currently. I work on stuff here and there, and hopefully now that winters coming I will have some free time. __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-31-2005, 01:54 PM	#14
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	I should chime in. I am currently a victim of my own pickiness. Can't get dP xmitter to work and don't have the $$ to get one Swiftech offered to donate calibrated atm. Without the dP measurements to be truthful Procooling reviews would be incomplete and inferior to stuff that's being published elsewhere (why bother then?) This happened before I got serious about testing last time too. Then I just decided to go with what I had and do my best and I think it did ok. But don't our readers actually expect MORE than the test methods that were used for SocketA wbs? __________________ Getting paid like a biker with the best crank... -MF DOOM

10-31-2005, 02:55 PM	#15
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	What would it cost to get the dP xmitter up and running? I mean maybe PC could take donations to get your rig running if the promise is that there are reviews/articles and contenty goodness. __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-28-2005, 09:52 AM	#2
Cyco-Dude Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 836	well i don't think you should forget formal reviews / articles altogether. they might not come as frequently as in the past, but i'd still read them. a current waterblock, HSF (VGA HSF?) or radiator review here and now would be good, as would the occasional project that you keep talking about doing i think you're on the right track with the forums taking a larger role of the site with user blogs / reviews / etc.

10-28-2005, 10:29 AM	#3
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	got to match resources with expectations where are the articles going to come from ? we have set the bar so high that 'professional quality' technical assessment and analysis is assumed yet only a handful of individuals (and some silent companies) have this capability, and only pH contributes to procooling procooling rode for several years on pH's back, I cannot imagine the hours he spent (untrue, I know well) -> where are new technical articles/reviews to come from ? is it understood that repeated accusations of bias will inhibit the release of data by others ? (sales wins over engn) the technical people will remain because we have nothing better, outside inputs are always needed so a closed forum is about worthless carry on Joe, you are too far outside the mainstream for 'popularity' as an aside, what is being 'lost' is interesting: a considerable bit of head scratching is going on regarding the assumptions made in the characterizing of components and systems little of this will be summarized as it is known to the participants - to whom it is of interest a shame Ben does not wish to do his codifying within procooling

10-28-2005, 06:34 PM	#4
maxSaleen Cooling Savant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando, Florida Posts: 383	I have an idea, though I don't know if it is feasible. Making the forums viewable/usable via the Blazer browser would allow those who are always on the go to participate more actively in the forums. I know I would. Plus it would be a first for the PC world (extremesystems on your handheld, anyone?) I think reviews are still important. It seems that the difficult part is in getting samples. Expanding to air cooling would give the site a larger base for content. Compare the number of air HSFs to liquid HSs released annually. It's not even close.

10-28-2005, 06:37 PM	#5
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I am not against the informal forum concept. My testing is getting better but I still can't write for shit. Much rather have a work log forum that I can just post what I am doing. People sending us review samples are the main concern I have. Would a forum thread about the product be to their satisfaction or would they expect a actual article? Or do we care?

10-28-2005, 10:07 PM	#7
Breach Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Washington Posts: 93	The one thing ive noticed about site like this one, is that without fresh front page content to get people to the site, new or old, the site fades out. I think procooling has vast potential as the only true extreme cooling forum where experts like Cathar (and others) are really involved. But there is deffinatly a lack of new reviews and articles. With a fresh face and new content I think procooling coud come alive as the difinitive source for what pro is all about. Granted, most of us do all have real world jobs, time is always an issue. It will take either people with extreme detication to the sites growth, or find a way to make procooling your job. In the end I would say just getting some fresh content would be a good start, bring new people to the site.

10-28-2005, 10:35 PM	#8
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I wonder what peoples idea of extreme cooling is? I have seen that phrase used toward ProCooling twice today. I personally have seen hardly any completed and not very many incompleted "extreme" cooling things done here. IMO water cooling is far from extreme. Water cooling has been used since the beginning of time (sweat!). Hardly extreme. IMO extreme is TEC, phase change, liquid NO2 and what not... Don't see that here hardly at all. I would have thought ProCooling meant "professional grade cooling techniques". Not only extreme but also air, water and whatever else works. Not sure what Joe originally used the ProCooling name for. As for content what would you suggest?

10-30-2005, 08:36 PM	#9
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I would suggest finding your staff and creating a staff discussion forum. Get an idea of what they are going to focus on and make their work easily viewable on the front page. Maybe a more in depth version of the view threads script you have now. Possible one block for each staff members work log. Their work logs can possible take place of articles and reviews. Shame there isn't more input in this thread?

10-31-2005, 03:44 PM	#16
ricecrispi Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: california Posts: 429	so jaydee needs some writing skills pH needs dP xmitter (sounds kinky) Joe needs an an extreme makeover (for his website of course) All we need is a tornado, red shoes, flying monkeys, and a quentin tarantino remake of the wizard of oz. Anyone want to be the lead? ----------------------------------- The site needs new articles and several people can contribute so the burden is not on pH alone. Procooling.com greatest assest is has a large number of big WCing players that are active members. It seems many have rested their laurels and believed Wcing has reached an apex. I think there is lots to ground to cover. WCing is always changing and evolving. Repeated test data wouldn't hurt either. We can have test data from several testers. It would help solve the problem of comparing results from different benches. We just group one set of bench test data and if onyone has conflicting data they can go back and retest or have a famous procooling flaming contest. We still need testing to be done on vidcard waterblocks, on new rads, and chipsets waterblocks. Testing data will allow expansion on the interactive wb performance chart by add rad, pump, vidcard and chipset wb variables. People can come to see how certain setups will perform instead of eyeballing and guesstimation. You can advertise on this page like crazy for several vendors and not just Wcing vendors! You can cover individual products then round them up for a big blow out comparative articles. You can do all the testing in one short span but spread out the releases of articles. Spreading out the reviews so people wanting more and come back for more. It's like getting a girl that gives it all on the first night. Do you come back for more once you got all you can get out of her? Why would you? It's nice we got reviews on individual parts but what about covering whole kits. Have can have reviews on WCing kits. Dtek vs dangerden vs swiftech vs silverprop vs. european market stuff. What about trying to get some european products to compare? It was nice to see the nexxos xp block. We need some international flavor. Procooling has many member across the globe. Try catering to them and not only the US based and english speaking based members. Add links to frontpage to articles related to computer cooling and product reviews from othersites. Helps broaden focus on other types of cooling and future possiblities in cooling. Might make friends with other sites too. Also gives us firestarter material for famous flaming wars at procooling. Add more project worklogs. coolmiester and mashie have posted worklogs and it would be great to get some dIY case modding tips and articles even if it's been done before. The forum is active so no problem but some topics lack traffic and i think groups some of them together might help. The forum is working but the front page needs work and we sorely needs testing data. BTW. We need a flaming war notice on the frontpage or forum so we don't miss a good match Last edited by ricecrispi; 10-31-2005 at 04:04 PM.

10-31-2005, 08:28 PM	#18
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Maybe this would provide some insight: http://overclockers.com/articles1271/index02.asp __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

10-31-2005, 09:58 PM	#19
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Well in a turn of weird events (not quite tot he flying monkeys level) I did some hack work on the site again tonight. like 1" closer and still 10 miles away. What I need to do is just sit down, uninterupted, and hammer on this shit for like a week. But that doesnt happen. Once I get started on something its either time for bed so I can go to work in the AM, or I am heading out the door, or friends are over... etc... The new site will be nice, but there is a SHITLOAD of work that goes into getting 5 years of legacy data into a new site, new format, new structure. That and I am a perfectionist, and I am not going to post the site until its done. And its not nearly to that point for me yet. __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-31-2005, 10:22 PM	#20
Investor Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: A piece of ass Posts: 19	Sounds like a job for VC... (venture c-a-p-i-t-a-l) I am always drikn// drunk

11-01-2005, 11:20 AM	#21
HAL-9000 Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2004 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 202	Some ideas Hey folks, I haven't posted here in awhile and so much has changed. Anyways, I would like to see some evolution of Procooling, if for nothing else then to keep the current community going. I sat around here (at work no less) thinking about something to do, but really there isn't much you can do to differentiate procooling from the myriad fan-boy cooling sites. As far as articles and testing go, we could test the same waterblock everyone else tests, perhaps always better, or test HSF's, which would be very, very hard to develop a reliable methodology/test bench for. I was thinking perhaps we could explore in our work logs the less glamorous but still meddlesome issues that plague performance cooling (using any technique, water, air..etc.). For instance, everyone in watercooling land is always complaining about mystery evaporation, gunk magically appearing in the lines...etc. Yet no one has ever explored the "why" of this occuring on any site, much less how to reliably remedy it...which is something any watercooler would be curious in. There are more issues out there like that, that's just one example. If we did articles/worklogs on things like that, it both eliminates the need for test samples (explore problems that are universal) and is something that no other site seems to care about. Just a thought.

11-04-2005, 08:13 PM	#22
9mmCensor Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 219	wasn't the plan to turn it into a porn site?

11-28-2005, 01:17 PM	#23
k\|ngp\|n Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: d3troit Posts: 9	Re: How would you re-structure ProCooling? Great site you guys have here. I am a regular over at xtremesystems.org, but I browse here ocasionally. Ever think of having an ln2/dryice specific forum?

11-28-2005, 01:40 PM	#24
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Re: How would you re-structure ProCooling? 9mm - That is plan B K\|ngp\|n I replied to your email and yes I think we should get a forum for that setup. I mean how can web be procooling without the extreme side covered? __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

11-28-2005, 01:49 PM	#25
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Re: How would you re-structure ProCooling? http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=78 there you go, the Xtreme Cooling Forums is here __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

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