SnapServer Reliability

[Kcmjr]

I've been browsing the forum looking for posts related to this. I've have found "some" info but nothing really definitive. So I'm posing the question to those of you who pound on these things all day long.

Exactly how reliable are these Snap Servers?

Particularly the 4000 since that's the one I have (and whats the use of asking if I can't inject a bit of self interest?).

If I want to relocate my file archives from the various disk drives I have rat-holed in drawers over to the 4000, how confident can I be that the files will be preserved over time?

These servers use software RAID which has never had a really good reputation for reliability. Personally I'll take hardware RAID over software any day. In playing with my 4000 it seems that if it's powered off for an extended period it tends to conveniently forget it's configuration. Perhaps this is an issue with my 4000, I don't know. If I decide to put larger disks in and move my files to it, is the RAID 1 going to be more stable or the RAID 5? I would have thought the RAID 5 but now I'd tend to bet on RAID 1 from what I've been seeing on this 4000.

Anyway, I'm extremely curious to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter.

Depending on what I hear I may decide to keep my archives off the Snap and go with archival DVD's instead (will do that either way regardless) but I did buy the Snap with the thought of keeping my file archives on it so they were all available online.

Thanks in advance....

[Max8]

SnapServers are extremely reliable... HDD's are not.

I have a snap 2000 that is still running fine today but the 10/100 connection and its slow processor are noticeable these days...

In answer to your question if you rely on a snap alone you are playing with fire, if you have the facility to back up to DVD you should and also keep a copy on a windows system if you can even if it means a drive upgrade or buy a USB HDD and deal with the slow transfers then put it in a cupboard.



You are mental if you do not duplicate your data across a couple of systems or USB Drives... RAID is great but take it from me it is a waste on space on a PC... Software or hardware RAID means nothing if your OS will not boot or your PSU blows!

A few years back I spent $1.5k's on a 4 drive raid system only to have my windows install screw up twice over 18 months, thankfully the Win partition was the only one effected and the data partitions remained in tac.

It was nice to have RAID but it did not save me once... and all it takes is for one capacitor on the mobo to go and I would have lost access to everything thanks to Windows not being relocated easily if at all.

If it is for a business server you must have RAID as this system would be integral to a companies survival and many workers having productive days... RAID will also give you speed but on anything home you will not get or notice the improvement, it only happen wen you have a bunch of people hitting the server at once so for home software RAID will do if speed is less important.

Hardware RAID is best for speed with RAID 10 for OS & Dbases RAID 5 for storage across the same drives! + check out the Adaptec MaxIQ for a new technology 5x speed/performance increases on Dbase/web & File servers! Boing!

The Key for me is that I can get to email & the net no matter what happens to any one system on my network, my data is duplicated across a second windows system & data across several NAS; SnapServers+Cheapo NAS+a Linux Fileserver, I keep them all identical with a syncing program and some are in my house and some are in my garage... in case my garage burns down!

I can tell you the Snaps are the easiest to mange buy far!

In the end no matter what happens I can only really loose a system and not data...

[blue68f100]

The 2000 class family consist of 2 type, 2000 v1 and v2, and the 2200. The 2000 has OS in firmware, where the OS is stored on the HD on the 2200's. These are very quite units. The 2000 were not design for the higher heat loads of 7200 rpm hd, so a fan upgrade is recommended. These 7200 HD's also tax the power supplies more, mainly on startup. These were design for enterprise class work (24/7), so they had to be reliable. These are very reliable machines but now are very old units, 10+ yrs. As with any hardware age does play an important part. The only neg on these older units is that the drives can not be moved to any other platform to read. And the read/write speed is very slow. So if your units fail you will need to put your HD's in the same hardware with same OS if in firmware. Or have a recovery service read them for you. I have a 2200 that has been running 24/7 for 4+ years, no problem what so ever. Being 2 HD units you only have Raid 1, mirroring for data redundancy. It takes a min of 3 hds for RAID5. Now the SnapOS does not support any OS past XP so Vista or Win7 are out.

If you want newer and better hardware you need to move up to Guardian OS units. Most of these have gige ports, with OS on HD. You must have a working unit to install the OS to get one running. So do not buy one unless it is complete with sleds and is bootable with supplied HD's. I like the 4500's units but these are noisy due to blowers but performance is really good. But again your looking a enterprise class equipment and reliability.

[Kcmjr]

Originally Posted by blue68f100

Now the SnapOS does not support any OS past XP so Vista or Win7 are out..

Interesting, I'm running Win7 and am able access my 4000 just fine from there.

I understand about RAID, it's capabilities and it's requirements. I'm a systems engineer and have worked with storage systems for almost 20 years from individual drives to large SAN arrays.

Originally Posted by max8

You are mental if you do not duplicate your data across a couple of systems or USB Drives

Max, I agree with you. I usually use a combination of offline disk drives, (usually SCSI due to their inherent higher MTBF and I've always had the best luck with them) archival CD & DVD, (it MUST be archival grade or they degrade after about 3 years) USB memory sticks (these also start to degrade after a few years), and my active copies so I tend to have 3 offline copies of important files.

And no, this is for personal private use, not a business. I just want a (relatively) reliable storage area for files and the Snap was cheap. I just missed out getting a full blown NetApp Filer we surplussed at work, that would have been great but someone else's name got pulled out of the hat. My plan is to upgrade the power supply, fans, and disks. I'm not too worried about the 10/100 link speed so that's not a factor.

Good comments so far, we'll see what comes in over night.

[Max8]

I have been hearing a bunch of bad news about SoHo NAS & failure rates and it is starting to make much more sense...

Today - Most junky soho NAS that are out there are showing Double figure failure rates! Yes 10% or above of course this info would never be published but I have reliable feedback from the resellers of certain brands when they are coming back to me for Snapservers and they don't want to risk Cheap NAS with a particular client

Imega are undoubtedly the worst - throw any kind of decent load at any NAS that runs from firmware and it will just stop responding, Curiously some just don't take the issues of heat dispersion into serious consideration.

Like all fine things it comes down to pedigree.
SnapServers come from a Server hardware background. they started in mid 1998 from modest beginnings and are still going... 5 owners later - one fact to prove reliability; I have a 1999 model 2000 that is still running today.

Snaps started at about $3k when NetApps start-off prices were starting from $40+, snapservers makers really brought NAS to the masses.

The two strongest competitors where Maxattach & Cobalt Cube apart from Dell's OEM'ed version of the 4100.

For one model Maxattach's idea for redundant power was 2x PSU's each powering 2x HDD's, the cobalt was not around very long but all reports are that it was a real poor piece of work.

Off all these only Snap are still shipping today...

What makes a good NAS

1. Operating system- Stability
2. Operating system- Features
3. Operating system- Reporting & Maintenance Utilities
4. Operating system- Ongoing Development
5. Hardware Reliability
6. Hardware Strenth & Quality
7. Customer Support Facilities
8. Hardware warranty Length and expansion Options
9. RMA Process & Speed for replacing HDD's

ZyXL has a tough as nails box as well, it crosses & tick all the correct boxes, 50 down and not one failure in very rough environments - again this is all coming back to pedigree - the vendor has a long history in carrier grade manufacturing, apparently they also sell a bunch of units into the European market.


The most impressive SoHo NAS to me today apart from snap is QNP, I have never used one I probably never will and it is probably just the same old soho crap dressed up real nice but QNP do have the sexiest Gui available today.

I have a customer testing QNP now so time will tell once we get them into a spot where they cannot run or hide... they will just have to sit there and process the traffic that is thrown at them then we will see if they can distance them selves from the crappy NAS ranks...


The scariest NAS are the ones with plastic shells or the ones that do not have metal on metal heat dispersion from drives to shell, If you cannot draw the heat away from the drives then your Data & $$$'s are at risk.


We may all have an affinity with SnapServers but if you are like me you will be keen to try any NAS you can get your hands on;

My questions are;

• What NAS have you tried?
• What was this NAS Used for?
• What are your views on that NAS?
• Have your experiences with their support been positive?
• Do you have any understanding of this NAS's failure rates?

[Terry Kennedy]

Originally Posted by Max8

• What NAS have you tried?
• What was this NAS Used for?
• What are your views on that NAS?
• Have your experiences with their support been positive?
• Do you have any understanding of this NAS's failure rates?

First:

What NAS have you tried?

Netgear ND520 (20GB)

What was this NAS Used for?

Doorstop

What are your views on that NAS?

Unreliable piece of junk. Netgear was so embarassed they withdrew it from the marketplace.

Have your experiences with their support been positive?

Nope - firmware updates were not available on their web site - you had to contact support, and they'd give you an update file that took an hour to install and bricked the unit.

Do you have any understanding of this NAS's failure rates?

2, both failed. One replaced under warranty. Failed again.

I'm surprised this didn't sour me on the whole NAS concept...

Second:

What NAS have you tried?

Snap 4100's (over a dozen), 1100's (2)

What was this NAS Used for?

Media library, centralized backup server for Windows and Unix boxes.

What are your views on that NAS?

Not bad. Unfortunately, the 4100's are stuck at the 128GB/drive limit, which is why I moved on.

Have your experiences with their support been positive?

Yes. Got good support and a replacement drive shipped ASAP. But that was several companies ago.

Do you have any understanding of this NAS's failure rates?

Lost one drive (a 60GB IBM DeathStar). Had some fans get clogged with cat fur.

Third:

What NAS have you tried?

RAIDzilla (homebrew server-grade NAS).

What was this NAS Used for?

Same as the second one.

What are your views on that NAS?

Fine for its time. Needs more capacity (only 5TB per server).

Have your experiences with their support been positive?

Self-supported.

Do you have any understanding of this NAS's failure rates?

The only problem has been drive failures of the Seagate 400GB drives. Otherwise, rock-solid.

Fourth:

What NAS have you tried?

RAIDzilla II (currently being built, pic here). 32TB disk, 48GB RAM, 2x E5520 CPUs.

What was this NAS Used for?

Same as above units.

What are your views on that NAS?

It will kill any benchmark with its 40+GB of RAM cache. Kind of expensive at $15K.

Have your experiences with their support been positive?

So far - I'm still building the first one (4 total are planned).

Do you have any understanding of this NAS's failure rates?

None yet.

[Phoenix32]

My 2 cents on this is simple...

I have tried a lot of hardware and systems, and for me, I have yet to find anything as tried and true as the Guardian Snap Servers. The OS is as stable as any of the others (more so IMHO), easy to use, full featured, and trusted by probably more large companys with their data than any other. True enterprise class equipment.

[Max8]

Hey Terry...
Awsome feedback - i will have to check RAIDzilla out too... But I take it that the unit your building now is for your work and you work for a HD TV station?

- Any one with 32tb of data at home that isn't business related then to have plans to build 4 more just like it would have to be fairly close to being able to admitt they have downloading issue?

Also earth is a pretty big place... Do you recon you could narrow it down for us any?
like; Ingelwood, CA or Musswell Hill, UK etc

[Max8]

Originally Posted by Phoenix32

My 2 cents on this is simple...

I have tried a lot of hardware and systems, and for me, I have yet to find anything as tried and true as the Guardian Snap Servers. The OS is as stable as any of the others (more so IMHO), easy to use, full featured, and trusted by probably more large companys with their data than any other. True enterprise class equipment.

Me too, but I must be a NAS-Tart cause I wana play the field....
- looking for a maxattach locally here isn Oz atm...

[Terry Kennedy]

Originally Posted by Max8

Awsome feedback - i will have to check RAIDzilla out too... But I take it that the unit your building now is for your work and you work for a HD TV station?

- Any one with 32tb of data at home that isn't business related then to have plans to build 4 more just like it would have to be fairly close to being able to admitt they have downloading issue?

No, it really is at my home. But I have lots of computers - 3 desktop Windows boxes, 2 Windows notebooks (one for general use and one supports the race car), a bunch of Unix systems (including the RAIDzillas themselves) and they all need to be backed up regularly.

Then there's the media collection.

But the really big space requirement comes from the 2 cameras in the race car - they're running whenever the ignition is switched on, and generate 64GB per 8 hours. And when I switch the car to HD video, that will get even bigger.

Also earth is a pretty big place... Do you recon you could narrow it down for us any?
like; Ingelwood, CA or Musswell Hill, UK etc

I guess that's the default location this forum uses if you don't specify one - I certainly didn't put that in there. I'm in New York City, US.

[Max8]

I thought I was a nutter tripple replicateing everything I have!
I am a butterfly's willy in comparison...

Nice Media Library... & even Nicer cars! I bet you really feel the speed you ar doing in one of those puppies...

[Terry Kennedy]

Originally Posted by Max8

Nice Media Library... & even Nicer cars! I bet you really feel the speed you ar doing in one of those puppies...

Thanks! Here's a video of my Atom doing a lap at Hallett (in Oklahoma). There's a fair amount of wind noise, so you may want to turn the volume down before clicking on these:

Low-res (16MB)
Hi-res (120MB)

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by Max8

Hey Terry...
I take it that the unit your building now is for your work and you work for a HD TV station?

- Any one with 32tb of data at home that isn't business related then to have plans to build 4 more just like it would have to be fairly close to being able to admitt they have downloading issue?

Originally Posted by Terry Kennedy

No, it really is at my home. But I have lots of computers - 3 desktop Windows boxes, 2 Windows notebooks (one for general use and one supports the race car), a bunch of Unix systems (including the RAIDzillas themselves) and they all need to be backed up regularly.

Then there's the media collection.

Terry, don't ya just love these "Data Snobs" who seem to think if you have a lot of data, you must be doing it for business etc? (I am teasing Max, we are friends).

I myself have about 14TB right now and working on getting that more towards 40TB I hope, and all for personal use.

[Max8]

14TB?, 32TB?, 40TB?

Hooley Dooley!
- What kind of Internet Plans are you guys on? - We are getting shafted here in Australia! - Thanks Telstra!

I had no idea!

How much is a WD 2TB Desktop HDD over there at the moment?

[Terry Kennedy]

Originally Posted by Max8

14TB?, 32TB?, 40TB?
Hooley Dooley!
- What kind of Internet Plans are you guys on? - We are getting shafted here in Australia! - Thanks Telstra!

Well, the ISP I'm a partner in has a whole bunch of Gigabit links to the rest of the world and peers with nearly 200 other providers at a variety of peering points.

My connection from there to my house, where the 32TB servers are, is a direct T1 and an unmetered 50/10 Mbit link via a tunnel through a cable TV company. Both of those cost in the neighborhood of US $175/month.

How much is a WD 2TB Desktop HDD over there at the moment?

Looks like the cheapest WD is the WD20EARS at US $139.99 from Newegg. The cheapest 2GB listed there is the Hitachi 0F10311 at $129.99.

However, I'm not using desktop drives in my array - I'm using the WD RE4 WD2003FYYS. which is still over US $300 each (in 20-packs, they're around US $6200).

[Max8]

Any time you want to Sponsor an Australian Family of 6, just let me know!

Our latest pricing;
Segate Desktop 2TB AUD $189
Hitachi Desktop 2TB AUD $185
WD Desktop 2TB AUD $169 but inconveniently; none in stock...

Thats what a small market & distance can do to you!

[Phoenix32]

Currently, I am looking into some of the Samsung drives. They seem to be getting good ratings, have a reputation for long lasting, and are working in RAIDs just fine. Not sure yet if I want to make the jump.

I been using Seagates, but their large drives of late have been having lots of reliability problems from what I can see in customer reviews.