Not happy with my W/C temps

schoolie · 02-01-2002, 07:24 PM

Hi,

I'm cooling with a MAZE2 an Eheim 1048 which gives me a flowrate of 43gph. I have a leviathon heater core that is so oversized that it isn't even a factor. My CPU pushes about 112W of heat. Now my water res temp is 12C and my CPU temp is 29C. COme Summer, I'll have an unstable computer. Any possibility I could get the CPU core to within 7C of the water temp? Shouldn't I be seeing better temps than these? I'm positive that my WB is seated properly and I see a perfect imprint of my CPU when I remove it, but the WB always feels cold to the touch when I'm running full load. The waterblock does have a few minor scratches. My pump connects directly to the res and to the radiator.

These are the next steps I'm contemplating:

1. Upgrade to Eheim 1250.
2. Lap my block with 600 grit paper.
3. Try a different water block (Z4/sidewinder)
4. Upgrade to 1/2" from 3/8".

It seems like I'm not getting good heat transfer from my CPU to the water. Any suggestions about which of these three steps would improve cooling more. Is the base of the MAZE2 too thick?

Thanks!

Rob

Brad · 02-01-2002, 11:57 PM

the maze2 is not your problem, it's a good block. Neither is your radiator.

your flow rates might be a problem, have you tried applying your AS2 very thin? Lastly, your mobo temp might just be way off.

other than that, there isn't too much that can be wrong really

schoolie · 02-02-2002, 12:54 AM

Thank you brad! That's really helpful to know. I purchased a MagDrive 3, and I'm going to give that a shot. I would have bought the 1250, but my local store didn't have them in stock. I'll post my results when I get the fittings for this pump.

--Rob

schoolie · 02-02-2002, 07:41 PM

OK, my magdrive 3 easily doubled my water flow. It's probably around 90gph. My CPU temp dropped about 1C.

I do have one more question. Isn't it true that it doesn't make any difference how thick one applies thermal grease? If the block is properly seated, then the excess AS will squirt out the sides. I mean, it's better to apply a thin layer so that you won't have AS all over the CPU die, but it doesn't affect the thermal transfer properties if the HSF/WB is seated level with adequate pressure. Comments?

Thanks for your help

Brad · 02-03-2002, 01:01 AM

if it is too thick then most of it will go out the sides, but not all of it will, I'd say quite a bit would stay in there, which couldn't be too good. just remount it again a couple of times

TigerOats · 02-03-2002, 12:09 PM

I personally think the problem may be related to either a lack of pressure on the core or the water block may need to be lapped. You should get 10C delta between coolant temp and core temp. I am getting 15C with a 40% antifreeze coolant and a flow rate of 1.5L/min (18gal/hour).

Fixittt · 02-03-2002, 12:22 PM

when you lap your block, do it on a sheet of glass, as glass tends to be pretty flat. U will kow when you have a flat bottom, when U can spray some wd 40 on the bottom of the block, and put it bottom down on the glass, and it becomes difficult to remove.

Also when applying any kind of thermo goo, put your hand in a plastic sandwich bag and use your finger tip to smear it around, Put it on the block, not the Core. U want it to be almost see thrue. Then remount.

Good luck my friend. Also make sure there is nothing in the way of the air path when air is being PULLED into your rad. And hopefully U are ducting the air some how, setting your fan/fans about 1 inch away from the rad. Ohh and make sure none of your hoses are getting kinked anywhere, and get all the air out of the system, the maze2 block is good for storing air inside. I would have your pump running, and with the block in your hand, turn it and smack the sides with your hand, to get any trapped air bubbles out. Do this for 10-30 minutes. shake it, almost be violent with it. but dont scratch the bottom.

schoolie · 02-03-2002, 05:05 PM

I've tried using a very thin layer on the block alone, and that seemed to raise my core temps. I think it must be uneven pressure, or the block needs more lapping. I have the springs fully compressed, and any more tightening might crush the core. The cpu package seems to be flush against the socket. OK, next weekend, it's a new lapping. Thanks again!

feliberti20 · 02-03-2002, 05:36 PM

Thoses are pretty good temps of course this depends on what kind of processor you are using.

You can get a couple of degrees betterdepending on the position of the heatercore and if you use a reservoir or not. A stronger fan might help also. This is about all the advie I can give you I hope it helps:shrug:

schoolie · 02-03-2002, 05:49 PM

Thanks feliberti! Unfortunately, my problem is not getting heat out of the water. My water temp is 15C. My problem is getting heat from the CPU to the water.

I saw your bong pics on hardforum. Very cool!

jaydee · 02-03-2002, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by schoolie
Thanks feliberti! Unfortunately, my problem is not getting heat out of the water. My water temp is 15C. My problem is getting heat from the CPU to the water.

I saw your bong pics on hardforum. Very cool!

How did you get a 15C water temp?

schoolie · 02-03-2002, 07:03 PM

I live in San Francisco, and it cold this Winter!

jaydee · 02-03-2002, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by schoolie
I live in San Francisco, and it cold this Winter!

I live in Spokane WA and it is doing this:

Already got over an inch. The only way I can get my water temp below room temp is to put the rad in the window and blow cold outside air through it. I gave that up when the ave daily temp got to be 0C or lower.

If your water temp is 15C your CPU should be no more than 8C over that with a DD Maze 2.

schoolie · 02-03-2002, 10:11 PM

You live in overclocking heaven, jaydee! I found that my MAZE2 is fairly concave in the middle. I did a little lapping tonight, but I'm going to need a lot of sandpaper to get this sucker perfectly flat.

Eagerly awaiting your new block. Maybe you can lap it for me, and raise the price accordingly

Fixittt · 02-03-2002, 10:17 PM

schoolie,
If done right U wont need that much paper. Use good masking tape and tape the paper to a pane of glass, a mirror or something. Then use very little water to wet the paper. and start lapping. if done without alot of force, and smooth motions, U will get good results without tearing the paper. make sure U are using wet/dry paper as well.

Start with a higher grit and step your way to 600.

Good luck

jaydee · 02-03-2002, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by schoolie
You live in overclocking heaven, jaydee! I found that my MAZE2 is fairly concave in the middle. I did a little lapping tonight, but I'm going to need a lot of sandpaper to get this sucker perfectly flat.

Eagerly awaiting your new block. Maybe you can lap it for me, and raise the price accordingly

If I ever sold my blocks they will come lapped. It isn't that hard, especially with a mill and then a little sandpaper.

I wonder why that one you got is like that? it usually comes pretty good right from the metal supplier. It should have been at least machine laped before it was sent. maybe that is why a few people are having bad luck with them.

Fixittt · 02-03-2002, 10:37 PM

You say that now jay, but when it comes time to do 50 of them, you will see that lapping 50 blocks is way no fun!

what I did was take them to the machine shop and use a fly cutter to machine them flat. and left lapping up to the end user, because alot of people have different opinions about the gritts.

jaydee · 02-03-2002, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fixittt
You say that now jay, but when it comes time to do 50 of them, you will see that lapping 50 blocks is way no fun!

what I did was take them to the machine shop and use a fly cutter to machine them flat. and left lapping up to the end user, because alot of people have different opinions about the gritts.

Good point!!! I was thinking of a fly cutter myself. I seen one made for my mill but it is like $60.

the copper and Al I got on my last order was in great shape. It was very flat from the factory. In fact I just hit this new block with a little 400 and 600grit and that was it. Took a few minutes. I think you are right aboutmaking them lap it them selfs. maybe throw in a cheap flyer on how to do it with the blocks

Fixittt · 02-03-2002, 11:23 PM

Jay, I dont know if U know about this site or not, but here is a good link
http://www.spillage.net/

hey make a metal slabber ( a shell mill) and one that uses incerts, man would I love to have one of them!

just thought I would share.

jaydee · 02-03-2002, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fixittt
Jay, I dont know if U know about this site or not, but here is a good link
http://www.spillage.net/

hey make a metal slabber ( a shell mill) and one that uses incerts, man would I love to have one of them!

just thought I would share.

Cool I will look over that tomorrow!!!

Brad · 02-03-2002, 11:47 PM

I'd imagine the aluminium or copper blocks would be fairly flat already though, i personally wouldn't bother, saying the blocks aren't lapped, as they are resonably flat, and it isn't worth the extra cost for you to lap them all

feliberti20 · 02-03-2002, 11:58 PM

check the seating of your block make sure that you are tightening across the block (like an x) this way you can get a better seating. Lapping helps a lot too. Hey fixitt I have been watching make your blocks since way bacvk in the beginning when you were sellign them at the hardforum I have been wanting to buy one but the waiting time is a killer. Is it any better now? LMK as I would eagerly buy one. Especially if you have a video chipset one as I am thinknig of bong cooling my radeon 8500 after a volt mod.

schoolie · 02-11-2002, 03:11 AM

Hate to beat a dead horse, but still no joy. I've lapped my block to 600 grit, increased my flow rate to 90gph, reseated with a lot of ASIII, reseated with a thin film of ASIII. However my core temp is 31C @load, 26C idle, and my ambient temp is 17C and my res temp is 17C. I'm running an AXP 2000+ at 1.921GHZ, with Vcore=2.08V. Is it possible that this sucker is just throwing off a lot of heat? It gets unstable at 35C, and I mean 35C measured by my KR7A thermistor. I have my MAZE2 tightened way down, and the CPU leaves a perfect imprint on the bottom. Arrrgh! What the heck am I doing wrong? Frustrating part is I'm getting worse temps now! Thanks for letting me vent

--Rob

Brad · 02-11-2002, 04:20 AM

17C -> 31C is seriously good, you won't get much better than that

schoolie · 02-11-2002, 04:32 AM

Thanks Brad. Why are some people getting 10C over ambient with Vcore=2.05V? I wish I could go TEC, but electricity is too expensive here

BTW, I tried the Dtek sidewinder, this weekend. I far as I could tell, the performance was comparable to the MAZE2. I also tried the Z4 with 1/2" fittings, but that was not a good experience. My temps were about 3-4C higher with the Z4. Who knows, maybe I did something wrong. I'm sending the Z4 to Jaydee so he can test it.

02-01-2002, 07:24 PM	#1
schoolie Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120	Not happy with my W/C temps Hi, I'm cooling with a MAZE2 an Eheim 1048 which gives me a flowrate of 43gph. I have a leviathon heater core that is so oversized that it isn't even a factor. My CPU pushes about 112W of heat. Now my water res temp is 12C and my CPU temp is 29C. COme Summer, I'll have an unstable computer. Any possibility I could get the CPU core to within 7C of the water temp? Shouldn't I be seeing better temps than these? I'm positive that my WB is seated properly and I see a perfect imprint of my CPU when I remove it, but the WB always feels cold to the touch when I'm running full load. The waterblock does have a few minor scratches. My pump connects directly to the res and to the radiator. These are the next steps I'm contemplating: 1. Upgrade to Eheim 1250. 2. Lap my block with 600 grit paper. 3. Try a different water block (Z4/sidewinder) 4. Upgrade to 1/2" from 3/8". It seems like I'm not getting good heat transfer from my CPU to the water. Any suggestions about which of these three steps would improve cooling more. Is the base of the MAZE2 too thick? Thanks! Rob

02-01-2002, 11:57 PM	#2
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	the maze2 is not your problem, it's a good block. Neither is your radiator. your flow rates might be a problem, have you tried applying your AS2 very thin? Lastly, your mobo temp might just be way off. other than that, there isn't too much that can be wrong really __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

02-02-2002, 07:41 PM	#4
schoolie Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120	OK, my magdrive 3 easily doubled my water flow. It's probably around 90gph. My CPU temp dropped about 1C. I do have one more question. Isn't it true that it doesn't make any difference how thick one applies thermal grease? If the block is properly seated, then the excess AS will squirt out the sides. I mean, it's better to apply a thin layer so that you won't have AS all over the CPU die, but it doesn't affect the thermal transfer properties if the HSF/WB is seated level with adequate pressure. Comments? Thanks for your help Last edited by schoolie; 02-02-2002 at 08:02 PM.

02-03-2002, 01:01 AM	#5
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	if it is too thick then most of it will go out the sides, but not all of it will, I'd say quite a bit would stay in there, which couldn't be too good. just remount it again a couple of times __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

02-03-2002, 12:09 PM	#6
TigerOats Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: UK Posts: 33	I personally think the problem may be related to either a lack of pressure on the core or the water block may need to be lapped. You should get 10C delta between coolant temp and core temp. I am getting 15C with a 40% antifreeze coolant and a flow rate of 1.5L/min (18gal/hour). __________________ Athlon T'bird 1.33 AXIA Y @1632 (12x136) Water cooled with refrigerated chiller; idle = full load = 3C Coolant = - 20C MSI K7T Turbo Raid V3.0 256Meg Crucial PC133 RAM 350W Enermax Diamond Viper V770 TNT2/Pro

02-02-2002, 12:54 AM	#3
schoolie Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120	Thank you brad! That's really helpful to know. I purchased a MagDrive 3, and I'm going to give that a shot. I would have bought the 1250, but my local store didn't have them in stock. I'll post my results when I get the fittings for this pump. --Rob

02-03-2002, 12:22 PM	#7
Fixittt CNC Beyatch Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tulsa Spell it backwards Posts: 721	when you lap your block, do it on a sheet of glass, as glass tends to be pretty flat. U will kow when you have a flat bottom, when U can spray some wd 40 on the bottom of the block, and put it bottom down on the glass, and it becomes difficult to remove. Also when applying any kind of thermo goo, put your hand in a plastic sandwich bag and use your finger tip to smear it around, Put it on the block, not the Core. U want it to be almost see thrue. Then remount. Good luck my friend. Also make sure there is nothing in the way of the air path when air is being PULLED into your rad. And hopefully U are ducting the air some how, setting your fan/fans about 1 inch away from the rad. Ohh and make sure none of your hoses are getting kinked anywhere, and get all the air out of the system, the maze2 block is good for storing air inside. I would have your pump running, and with the block in your hand, turn it and smack the sides with your hand, to get any trapped air bubbles out. Do this for 10-30 minutes. shake it, almost be violent with it. but dont scratch the bottom. __________________ Creator of the Spir@l Block Longest post ever http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=43808#post43808

02-03-2002, 05:05 PM	#8
schoolie Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120	I've tried using a very thin layer on the block alone, and that seemed to raise my core temps. I think it must be uneven pressure, or the block needs more lapping. I have the springs fully compressed, and any more tightening might crush the core. The cpu package seems to be flush against the socket. OK, next weekend, it's a new lapping. Thanks again!

02-03-2002, 05:36 PM	#9
feliberti20 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Pax River MD Posts: 10	good temps Thoses are pretty good temps of course this depends on what kind of processor you are using. You can get a couple of degrees betterdepending on the position of the heatercore and if you use a reservoir or not. A stronger fan might help also. This is about all the advie I can give you I hope it helps:shrug: __________________ My rig: 1500xp@1800xp(139x11)8k7a@2.15vbong COOLED w/maze2 28.6C@full load. Radeon 8500oem 260/270 2x30gb 75gxp raid-0

02-03-2002, 05:49 PM	#10
schoolie Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120	Thanks feliberti! Unfortunately, my problem is not getting heat out of the water. My water temp is 15C. My problem is getting heat from the CPU to the water. I saw your bong pics on hardforum. Very cool!

02-03-2002, 07:03 PM	#12
schoolie Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120	I live in San Francisco, and it cold this Winter!

02-03-2002, 10:11 PM	#14
schoolie Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120	You live in overclocking heaven, jaydee! I found that my MAZE2 is fairly concave in the middle. I did a little lapping tonight, but I'm going to need a lot of sandpaper to get this sucker perfectly flat. Eagerly awaiting your new block. Maybe you can lap it for me, and raise the price accordingly

02-03-2002, 10:17 PM	#15
Fixittt CNC Beyatch Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tulsa Spell it backwards Posts: 721	schoolie, If done right U wont need that much paper. Use good masking tape and tape the paper to a pane of glass, a mirror or something. Then use very little water to wet the paper. and start lapping. if done without alot of force, and smooth motions, U will get good results without tearing the paper. make sure U are using wet/dry paper as well. Start with a higher grit and step your way to 600. Good luck __________________ Creator of the Spir@l Block Longest post ever http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=43808#post43808

02-03-2002, 10:37 PM	#17
Fixittt CNC Beyatch Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tulsa Spell it backwards Posts: 721	You say that now jay, but when it comes time to do 50 of them, you will see that lapping 50 blocks is way no fun! what I did was take them to the machine shop and use a fly cutter to machine them flat. and left lapping up to the end user, because alot of people have different opinions about the gritts. __________________ Creator of the Spir@l Block Longest post ever http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=43808#post43808

02-03-2002, 11:23 PM	#19
Fixittt CNC Beyatch Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tulsa Spell it backwards Posts: 721	Jay, I dont know if U know about this site or not, but here is a good link http://www.spillage.net/ hey make a metal slabber ( a shell mill) and one that uses incerts, man would I love to have one of them! just thought I would share. __________________ Creator of the Spir@l Block Longest post ever http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=43808#post43808

02-03-2002, 11:47 PM	#21
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	I'd imagine the aluminium or copper blocks would be fairly flat already though, i personally wouldn't bother, saying the blocks aren't lapped, as they are resonably flat, and it isn't worth the extra cost for you to lap them all __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

02-03-2002, 11:58 PM	#22
feliberti20 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Pax River MD Posts: 10	check seating check the seating of your block make sure that you are tightening across the block (like an x) this way you can get a better seating. Lapping helps a lot too. Hey fixitt I have been watching make your blocks since way bacvk in the beginning when you were sellign them at the hardforum I have been wanting to buy one but the waiting time is a killer. Is it any better now? LMK as I would eagerly buy one. Especially if you have a video chipset one as I am thinknig of bong cooling my radeon 8500 after a volt mod. __________________ My rig: 1500xp@1800xp(139x11)8k7a@2.15vbong COOLED w/maze2 28.6C@full load. Radeon 8500oem 260/270 2x30gb 75gxp raid-0

02-11-2002, 03:11 AM	#23
schoolie Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120	Hate to beat a dead horse, but still no joy. I've lapped my block to 600 grit, increased my flow rate to 90gph, reseated with a lot of ASIII, reseated with a thin film of ASIII. However my core temp is 31C @load, 26C idle, and my ambient temp is 17C and my res temp is 17C. I'm running an AXP 2000+ at 1.921GHZ, with Vcore=2.08V. Is it possible that this sucker is just throwing off a lot of heat? It gets unstable at 35C, and I mean 35C measured by my KR7A thermistor. I have my MAZE2 tightened way down, and the CPU leaves a perfect imprint on the bottom. Arrrgh! What the heck am I doing wrong? Frustrating part is I'm getting worse temps now! Thanks for letting me vent --Rob

02-11-2002, 04:20 AM	#24
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	17C -> 31C is seriously good, you won't get much better than that __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

02-11-2002, 04:32 AM	#25
schoolie Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120	Thanks Brad. Why are some people getting 10C over ambient with Vcore=2.05V? I wish I could go TEC, but electricity is too expensive here BTW, I tried the Dtek sidewinder, this weekend. I far as I could tell, the performance was comparable to the MAZE2. I also tried the Z4 with 1/2" fittings, but that was not a good experience. My temps were about 3-4C higher with the Z4. Who knows, maybe I did something wrong. I'm sending the Z4 to Jaydee so he can test it.

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