OCPC Watercooling Manufacturer

[Delta-T]

Hello people I built up enough courage to register and post.

I'm in the UK and we are just really getting into Watercooling over here, but most of our stuff is US imports with the exception of 1 company. OCPC.

Just wondering how these blocks compare to say Danger Dens. They look similar, but some people are saying they perform better, in fact some figures banting around say about 3° better.

No this is always hard to say which is the better performer and I guess only a hand few of people can really test these blocks properly so I'll just take those figure with a pinch os salt.

Anyway this is a picture of the OCPC block.


There is a thread about this block at a UK based watercooling site
here

Now really the question is, should I go for say a Maze 3 block which seems to use a thinner peice of clear plastic(polycarbinate)? which I beleieve they have had some issues with like cracking.

OR

Try this new block which is being sold at a UK based Watercooling site here

Im seriously thinking about a BlackICE Extreme RAD, but again OCPC seem to have a Radiator that kicks it's BUTT.

Funny name they have for them "The Deep" & "The Abyss" here is a pic of them both.


Does the BlackICE have replaceable BARBS like these RADS do? again, what would be the better option? Go with the tried and tested or take a chance on say that abyss RAD? Look all Copper and Brass to me which I beleieve is better than say an Ali RAD.

Help please Watercooling Gurus

ta

Delta-T

[Skydiver]

1st off I'll declare my interest so there is no confusion - I'm a mod at CoolHardware and a personalfriend of JESSFM who is one half of OCPC (AWOL being the other).

Jess and Awol are well known UK overclockers and have been at the leading edge of OC technology for quite a while. Jess used to offer (maybe still does, ask him nicely) a volt modding service, and runs water cooled, 2 stage volt modded boards himself. It came to the point where they figured they could do a better job than some of the bigger names because they were interested in improving the efficiency and effectiveness of the components and from experience know how to do it.

The Neptune does outperform the Maze in like for like testing, it is more effective at removing heat from the cpu. The OCPC crew also spent quite some time in a beta testing phase where they initially experienced a couple of small cracks in the tops. This problem was analysed and the design changed to prevent it. Further stress testing of the new design has shown no further cracking problems. And the blue LED is just damn sexy

The rads are also great performers. They have many fins and a large surface area to lose heat. Again built to a spec create by people who are overclockers, for overclockers.

One of the problem with reviews is getting the parts. OCPC sell them before they're unpacked I'm trying to convince Jess to get some samples to me so I can run some like for like tests - I have the rig for it. An abyss is promised and expected any day now. I already have a heater core to run it against. I will post as sson as I get results.

My righere

[pHaestus]

First of all, I think everyone here has seen the stuff Jessfm makes/does and I feel that this thread is getting very close to advertising for OCPC. I will leave it up for now and try to redirect the comments a bit away from advertising for a particular company and towards something more useful.

Regarding the performance of Maze3 or the Neptune vs. other blocks: I am a skeptic and not only that I am very critcal of other people's testing. If you start to consider what is really needed to test water cooling equipment ACCURATELY then things get quite complicated and expensive. One number at one flow rate with extremely inaccurate temperature readers doesn't impress me in all honesty.

One thing that anyone can do (and it greatly improves the usefulness of the results) is to vary the flow rate and record the resulting performance. Now the method you use to vary (and more importantly measure) flow is going to affect the system's overall performance, but it still is at least approaching useful information (you can usually run the tests over a range of 0.5-1.5GPM with a larger magdrive type pump) because you can vary the flow without turning off the computer/pump/reseating the block/replumbing the loop/replacing the fluid and so the relative data may be internally more accurate (fewer variable that affect the resulting temperature) and interesting than comparing different blocks.

Since Jess seems to have a much better feel for the community than many larger manufacturers, I would suggest that OCPC begin to raise the bar by publishing information such as:

1) pressure drop with 3/8", 1/2", 5/8" (where applicable) fittings for radiators and waterblocks

2) Performance vs. flow rate curves for same (don't have to spend $10k on a test setup necessarily but be clear on your methods and equipment)

3) Physical properties of parts: thickness of baseplate, channel height/width. internal volume, surface area of radiator

The community is left by and large with pictures and word of mouth to choose a setup, and what works best is highly dependent on the individual's overall system. For example, fitting size, pump choice, tubing size all affect flow rates and will affect choice of "best" block and rad and the sensitivity to noise will also affect radiator choice as some perform better with low CFM fans than others.

What we need in the community is much less hijacking of catch-phrases for marketing purposes (look no further than turbulence) and less reliance on performance numbers that have appalling error (think 3C is statistically relevent when both your probes for water and core are +/-3C accuracy AT BEST?) and more people willing to come up with an honest and fair testing of their own stuff.

[Jessfm]

Nothing to do with me :shrug:

pHaestus I could majic up all sorts of figures, but fact is I would be bias and if i was out to buy a product I would want information thats not done by the sorce.
Like rads as an example, how do you work out their efficency ?
I could give very impressive figures, but refrain from telling anyone the air flow,waterflow Delta-T, Air temp, water temp etc etc.
It truely is hard to find a good reputable site that is geared up to do a real test.
I want to make it clear that Im not picking testers who will only say good things, hell I can redraw and change a WB design if its going to be more benificial, but I won't lie. CNC time is expensive, Development of is very expensive. But I would like to think Im still in touch.
BillA & Hoot had already agreed to look at one of the SoA version blocks, but these have only just got out.
And a few ppl like Sky have already agreed to do their best too.
TBH Procooling was on my short list - problem is I don't have any intention of trying to sell OCPC products back to USA or AU etc( ££ is too strong against it) so would it realy be worth sending expensive kit for review that I could not honestly ask for it to be returned.

Other points are valid though and I will adress them as soon as possible( Ill do some volume/pressure drop tests over this weekend)- thanks for pointers

[pHaestus]

The only person really properly testing watercooling gear is BillA. I think he doesn't do it for a living, however so the whole community can't really rely on only him. The problem is that end user numbers are really useless, and even the numbers I can generate at the moment are not that much better. I am working on some of my test setup's flaws, however. Roundups from enthusiast sites become far more useful if flow data and multiple tests are conducted. I pretty much know if I get a good paste application and a good mount on any of the blocks I regularly use; I wouldn't know this if I were mounting it for the first time. I trust Joe (on this site) because he is up front about the limitations of his testbed and says straight up that the testing isn't an exact science. In my mind that suggests that he is also doing his best to limit variability when he can. Reviewers that don't realize their limitations are also less likely to minimize other errors IMO. This may just be bias from working in a chemistry lab though.

I think that physical properties, pressure drop, and airflow vs. static pressure numbers for your radiators would go a LONG way even without any real performance data. The same is true for knowing the properties and dimensions of your block. I recognize the bias of manufacturers, but it would be nice to at least show that some testing and QC and R&D go into the final product. There is charm to the DIY aspect of water cooling, but it is also nice to know that you are buying something that is operating at optimum performance (either by trial and error or by some engineering know how) .

[BillA]

as the subject was raised here, and is known to some (manufacturers) but not to the public generally;
I would state that BillA is commercially involved in testing WCing components (Thermal Management Testing Co.)
but that no work paid for by a manufacturer is included in articles, or in the misc data and graphs that I post;
all such data (and even the fact of its existence) is the property of the mfgr, and generally covered by an NDA

but I can tell any interested, that its slim pickings in the testing business
pounds for puffery, pennies for proof

one does have to keep a bit of perspective regarding the end user’s need for and use of test results
performance testing yields results expressed in engineering units, and typically such are not well understood - and seldom indeed actually used in working up the overall 'design' of a WCing system
while I (having an interest ??) and other engineer types would like to see all products' performance actually quantified, mfgrs have little economic incentive to do so given the sorry understanding that most OCers have of their OWN temp measurement inadequacies

how is that Overclockers' Mantra ?

all temps are crap, and Watts are worse
oooohhhhhhmmmmmmm

even so; as pHaestus suggested, and Jess concurred, some basic data like air and liquid flow resistance curves really should be provided - and such are NOT impossibly difficult to generate

I'm reminded of the instant proliferation of "low pressure drop" radiator claims that appeared after that old rad article;
-> without a SINGLE CURVE ever being presented, wow !

Bill Adams

EDIT: some progress perhaps ?, an AMD diode reader

EDIT: corrected bad diode reader link

[Jessfm]

Hey Bill.

I keep getting asked for figures and I find it very anoying. IMHP its sometime better to say nothing, then to half tell the truth.
In some ways I could do a half cocked test ( i can supply a constant heat source of 2kw, I can measure(accurate to 1%) the Air & water temps in/out/Air , I could even measure the pressure differencial between inlet&outlet. What I can't measure and for me its very important, as shown by your graphs on the rad test Article , is the flow rates (Air /water).
I could guesstimate I suppose

End of the day its hard to find someone 1: willing 2:capeable 3:None Bias to test/review most any products.

*note for Bill*
I have got the SocketA version of the neptunes done, would you still like to test/review one as we discussed at tekforums a while back?????.


End of the day it still boils down to price ballance. We couyld spend $1000's getting products reviewed until one comes out that looks about right.

I will do what i can, within the limitations of my knolledge/equipment. I would love to have a Lab at my disposal to do a fully controlled test - sadly Im not rich

[BillA]

"We could spend $1000's getting products reviewed until one comes out that looks about right."

this is part of the problem; 2 ways to interpret this statement:
1) sell products, have them reviewed, then revise the product - and repeat
2) make one product and send it around until a favorable review is obtained, then quote that review only

the first approach is using customers as ginnie (sp) pigs,
and the second is shopping for a (good) review

both of which are symptomatic of inadequate R&D prior to the product's release
(a notable new product miscue comes to mind)

this is the handicap of all small mfgrs, limited resources - how to best allocate
- indeed the flow rate definition is the buggar

Jess, you are asked for numbers because you are posting
look at DD; as a matter of policy they do not post, so few seem to complain about the (un)available data
other (un-named, eh) mfgrs are asked for data and they spout magical bullshit, and the posters are happy
(because they don't know enough to recognize the flim-flam)

despite my carping, the dilemma is real
WHAT good will a head loss curve do a fellow who wants to use it to determine the flow rate with his Rio 2200 gph pump ?
OR his buddy who wants to cable-tie 4 high speed fans to his rad ?
insane, insane (but not really, the technical term is ignorant)

e-mail me with that tekforums thread and what you might want
this site and others might be more useful for a comparative review
I am in the midst of a wb article but it’s not a 'shootout', just 4 very different wb designs and how to show their differences

[Delta-T]

WOW, this seems to gone off topic a little.

Jesus wish I never posted now. Jess I think you are OCPC, I'm sorry man, never meant to drag you into this sorta thread. I'll email you to appologise,

Pro Forum Mod's, again sorry never meant to advertise, thought it was ok to talk about manufactures products? If it wasn't plz just delete the thread and i'll try to discribe it differently.

You see, im in the UK and would rather buy UK products, but that's just my "BRITISH" pride I am also proud that we have at least 1 single manufacture of Watercooling prodcuts over here, I guess Jess you have stuck your neck out and tried, "Well done".

BEst of luck to everyone, I think I'll maybe ask the same question else where as it's seems this forum is a little too busy and maybe political?

Delta

[Cyco-Dude]

not really lol

cost is another factor to consider, and unless DDen's stuff is competatively priced, it would most likely be cheaper to get the OCPC stuffs (which im sure you already know).
now lets see...do the BI have replaceable barbs? nope. what would be the better option? as far as which rad to get? i think the BI might be a little smaller (you'll have to check the dimensions on your own), but they both look easy to mount to the case, etc. ask how many passes the coolant makes thru that rad, and ask how many parrallel tubes it has per pass (it looks like a 6 tube / 2 pass design, but it could be 3 tube / 4 pass).
as far as how the blocks compare to DDen (and other) blocks, i couldnt say...but that Neptune block has a design not unlike DDen's Maze 1C block (except for the plexi top, and LED hole ). i do believe DDen has addressed the issues with their Maze3's, so cracking shouldnt be an issue anymore.

so...get whats cheaper, unless you're rich, then get everything and tell us how they compare in your system lol.

[pHaestus]

No one's in any trouble Delta-T. Political? All my fault I suppose. I DO have an agenda: I would like some better educated overclockers as far as comparing temperatures are concerned (I think I convinced a few with the diode reader at least). I am very pleased to see OCPC step up and agree about the need for some of this data to be readily available.

Re: advertising. The original post was clearly structured in a way that the superiority of OCPC's products over all others was at least implied without any real (to me) proof other than some pictures. So yes I hijacked the thread but you left it open for that. The radiators LOOK pretty and I like the fittings. Are they 1/4" NPT or 3/8" NPT though? I like my 5/8" barbs and they sadly won't fit on 1/4" NPT...

Bill can be harsh and so can I, but such is life. As someone in the position of trying to evaluate and compare waterblocks and their performance, I find myself very frustrated by the observations of those who know (Jess and Bill) that this is very expensive, complicated, and time consuming work. I realize the same, but manufacturers (and even many readers) want something simple and quick wiithout regard to accuracy or even overall usefulness.

[webmedic]

Here here. I don't have my products done yet but am still working on them. The development is defiantly the killer. The expense is quite a load for us little guys to begin with. One thing of note is that I would agree that standardised testing is verry important. I can run my own tests all I want but unless all aspects the test invironment are structly controled it is of no use to anyone.

One last thing It's not really about who has the best product in the consumers eye. Fads come and go and the people are fickle but if you can put out a good product and deal with the people in an honest way then at the end of the day you don't have to look over your shoulder.

[Jessfm]

Delta-T - No need to appologise to me. Im more then happy to discuss our products & how I eventualy ended up at this stage.
Im making the products becuase it was getting to be a joke, I have promoted watercooling for a long time now, but it was starting to anoy me with the politics between Reselers and the products available to them.

[b]Billa/b] - I can only agree with you. Any firgures I released would mean nothing to me ( if I were a buyer). Im not claiming for one Min that we have got it 100% right - since I know I have compromised in the R&D testing. sad fact , but I did the very best I could with the limited resorces available to us.
But Im unsure what you mean about me wanting numbers - you think I should not be so concerned and concentrate on product design ??
As discussion on tekforums, it was PM's . I only had a P4-Neptune available and you could only test SoA.

To the others points:
BSP is the standard here, so thats what i use. its thread is very close to NPT, but is different.
1/4BSP is used on "The Deep" variants and Im working on getting 3/8BSP for the abyss(16mm size max) , various problems going over this size is availability(i.e special sockets cost more) and the fact a larger tank would be needed.

[Cyco-Dude]

so you make those radiators? are those side panels welded on? could you make it so its also a shroud (so instead of having the fan right on the fin surface, its lifted off a cm or 2? or is it already like that and i just cant tell? lol)

[Jessfm]

The Shroud is Soldered onto the tanks, this lifts the fan about 20mm away and gives the rad alot more rigidity.

[webmedic]

Originally posted by Jessfm
The Shroud is Soldered onto the tanks, this lifts the fan about 20mm away and gives the rad alot more rigidity.

i would still be interested on getting my hands on some of those.

[Skydiver]

I'm also sorry if my post was seen as advertising. pH and BillA, thanks for the input on testing technique. I can't measure pressure, but my rig allows me to deliver a constant and known head of water to the units on test, and I can measure flows with a workable accuracy.

I've been winding Jess up recently about 1/2" stuff, which when I stick the verniers down them I find the ID is much less than 1/2". I have spent some time researching fittings and some care in measuring to ensure my 1/2" is actually a minimum of 1/2" ID all the way to the w/b, rad, etc.

The rig certainly isn't built to any lab spec, and results from it can not accurately be compared to another rig because so many other conditions alter. But I hope to do some shootouts, and get some comparison results that are of use to the overclocking community.

[pHaestus]

Excellent skydiver! We need more people testing equipment with an eye to their own limitations and doing it because they are interested and they enjoy it.

Don't worry about comparing to other people's rigs; relative performance over a range of common conditions with your system is I think much more useful.

I think it is really cool to see people in other countries really pushing the envelope for liquid cooling. Looks like several German companies are really taking off, Australia seems to be very active now, and your products for the UK look quite good. In the few months there has been lots of innovation (a good thing).

[Nitestorm]

For the benefit of everyone, could someone clear up the relationship between OCPC and CoolHardware? Just that I'm concerned it's not made clear on either site (apart from OCPC being a sponsor for CoolHardware) and maybe it should be just so people know. After overclock-watercool and what seems now OCZ, it might concern some of the cross over and close links between the two.

[Jessfm]

Its should be clear TBH, as "Overclockedpc"(not to be confused with "OCPC" again) is only a sponsor.
But to answer your question:-
Its very true that Coolhardwares inital source of revenue is from Overclockedpc, but it has other sponsors now.
The facts:
The partners own all three :-
Coolhardware
Overclockedpc
OCPC.
Coolhardware is just a hardware site, it has ATM(this is important) given a couple of forums for the support of side of Overclockedpc, but this is hardly permanent. The Admin of Coolhardware have been appointed, and all control of the site was passed over to one of the most experienced Admin's that we knew - Jason Kennedy(aka JK23). If the members feel that it can't offer the forums for Overclockedpc - then I'm sure Coolhardware's admin will decide to remove them. This is much like certain forums offing Epox support etc., nothing more. Coolhardware is free from any political crap that dogs 3/4's of the forums based in the UK> any link can be posted, if its a competitor to Overclockedpc, Chillblast, Kingdom etc it does NOT matter.
Now to show the differences between OCPC & Overclockedpc.
Any company wishing to sell/retail OCPC products can, the products are not exclusive to Overclockedpc. Overclockedpc was set-up to just fill a gap in the market. Both have budgets to work from, and Overclockedpc will soon start to stock lots of other core components not manufactured by OCPC- its a shame still though, since certain stores have done deals with some of the best component to ONLY supply them , this artificially keep prices high.
It certainly troubles me to even be mentioned in the same thread as OCZ TBH, but its better to be honest and keep the intentions clear.
I personally pride myself on my honesty , and a specific thing we don't do is to put our integrity at risk. If you can't trust a Co. IMHO you should never deal with them.

I hope that answers the question fully, since I know this has bounced about a few times on some forums that would not even allow(due to competitors names mentioned ) the question to be answered - hell I hardly even bother going to these forums any more..

pHaestus - sorry if this is touching on Advertising , I am just trying to answer as honest & clearly as possible.


....Jess

*edit* fixed links

[pHaestus]

No not at all Jess thanks for addressing that question.

[Nitestorm]

Thats ok, just that for someone who doesn't know the internal decisions that were made might get a little curious, especially considering both domains are registered to you and that you have articles/reviews of OCPC products on Coolhardware. Thought it might be prudent to bring it up early on and have it answered now, rather than someone down the line making a big deal of it. The more specialist UK computer retailers the better I say, so good luck to you