Phase Change Resevior..

|PuNiSh3R| · 06-18-2002, 12:12 PM

I am going to submerge my evaporator (icebox in the frige)

In a resevior. how much water should I put in the resevior? Think I should use like a 5 gallon bucket? or should I just use enough to cover the evaporator?

Should I use water wetter too? I am going to use anti-freeze of course..

bigben2k · 06-18-2002, 03:10 PM

Keep it simple, use a minimal amount. That way, if there are any surprises, you won't have to wait 2-3 hours to find out about them...

You can use Water Wetter, but I'd stay away from it unless you have the potential for galvanic corrosion.

_Mike_ · 06-18-2002, 04:23 PM

Your right on the ball with the 5 gallon idea. Ideally, you want to use a insulated container, to keep the "cold" in as much as you can. The best way to insulate it would be to buy an Igloo (TM)-type brand cooler. I don't quite understand what Bigben meant about finding problems, but try what I suggest.

As for the coolant, try a 50/50 solution of glycol and water. You will love it.

bigben2k · 06-18-2002, 04:37 PM

To clarify, your rig will only take longer to reach a stable temperature, if you use lots of water in that bucket. That water acts as a heat transmitter from your computer, to the fridge's cold coils, but that water is also going to be a buffer, i.e. it is going to delay the heat transition, if you use lots of it.

So the surprise is having to wait 6 hours to find out your REAL min and max temps.

I'm (strangely?) stuck with the idea that you're going to stick that bucket inside what's left of that fridge. If not, then the igloo cooler idea would work. It reminds me of the guy with the freon cooler... he used an igloo cooler, coated the insides, and used that to hold CO2 and Fluorinert.

http://www.octools.com/index.cgi?cal...ubmersion.html

_Mike_ · 06-18-2002, 05:01 PM

Well, taking 6 hours for the coolant to reach it's maximum cold temperature is a looooong time, I would doubt that. They disadvantage to using 1 gallon though, is he may not find his lowest possible temperature, because the coolant will not be plentiful enough to handle the heat, and never reach full chill-ness. . . (Yes, I invented that word. . .)

|PuNiSh3R| · 06-18-2002, 09:10 PM

No.. the resevior will definitly be on the outside.

Ok, I will use a cooler to hold it.. I am also putting my pump in it.. as it has a small leak.. I fixed the real major problem with it.. but never could seal up the small leak.. so I can't use it inline.

I am going to sketch out my design tonite and if it looks good enough I will take a pic of it and post it up.

#Rotor · 06-18-2002, 09:34 PM

the smaller you can keep your "cold-body" the better it will perform, because the smaller it is, the lesser the total surface area to it will be, which means less place for heat to enter. now, the volume should be just enough to cover the evaporator completely. The main restricting factor in heat capacity, is the total surface area between the liquid and the evaporator, so you need that to be maximized, before you look at things like proper fluid ventilation in the reservoir, and a couple of other things....

|PuNiSh3R| · 06-18-2002, 09:38 PM

so basically.. I want just enough water to keep my entire evap. covered?

Not an Igloo Cooler?

|PuNiSh3R| · 06-18-2002, 09:44 PM

Right now I am just going to design how I want the compressor case to be.. and how I want the evap cooling to be.. and how I want my PC case to be..

I will have to see if I hear back from this frige guy tomorrow.. if not I will go to a local frige place.

bigben2k · 06-18-2002, 11:10 PM

Go with the igloo. Add some styrofoam walls to make it the smallest amount of water, leaving everything submerged. You can also top it off with a floating lid, made of styrofoam: this will reduce coolant loss by evaporation, and keep temps a little more (wee bit) steady.

Use the pump leak to flow the water around... LOL!

#rotor is right. _mike_'s off the mark.

The water needs to be the smallest amount. That way, you'll find out earlier rather than later if your coolant can take the low temp, or if it'll freeze solid.

The quantity of coolant has no effect on the system, other than delaying the rise of temperature to the balance point, where the CPU heat is completely dissipated by the cooling coil. Now if you have a LOT of water (i.e. lake, or underground tank) that's another story...

I'm really interested in your rig. I've been dodging the whole refrigeration phenom because I always thought it was too complicated (keeping it optimally efficient), and never quite understood how I'd keep it quiet (a humming compressor isn't my idea of quiet).

I really like the idea of a chiller, because it's by far an easier and efficient way to reach sub ambiant coolant temps.

But after seeing your work, and doing a little research, I just might consider it... I'd build it straight out from scrap though: recycle an old compressor, get that valve, and get some copper tubing. A little soldering (always fun) and a bleed/refill valve, a coolant tank, a water block and a pump. No more of those bulky radiators (heater cores rated to 50 psi) that aren't very efficient because the temp difference just isn't there, and no fan whatsoever (well, except maybe on the compressor!).

Looking into finned tubing...

Pelt cooling versus phase cooling... How about both?!?

|PuNiSh3R| · 06-19-2002, 02:00 AM

I used pelts.. they take a LOT Of electricity.. stay away.

I've spent a lot of money here already.. so I am trying to stay on a minimal budget now..

All the fans I will be using are these dead silent PSU fans I found.. I will put a link up if I can find one.

_Mike_ · 06-19-2002, 09:07 PM

I don't think I'm wrong, if he uses just one gallon, he's going to be sorry, I think.

Dix Dogfight · 06-20-2002, 01:04 AM

_Mike_
I'm afraid BB2k is right in this matter. The more water you add the longer it will take for the system to reach its equilibrium = stable working temperature. One gallon of water takes approximatley 200 seconds to heat one degree kelvin/celsius with a 80W heat source. So if the temp difference between start and stable temp is 20 degrees. Then the time it takes for the system to reach stable temp is 20*200=4000seconds=1h7min.
If you make the total volume of water 5 gallons,as you propose, the time it will take to reach equilibrium will be 5*4000sec=20000sec=5h33min.

Now do you really think |PuNiSh3R| would want to wait 5h to see if his system is stable?

I run my system with approx 0.25 gallon of water, and it works no problemo. However that is only a normal wc-system but the difference between my rad loosing the heat and |PuNiSh3R|'s phase change doing the job is indifferent.

As for using 50/50 glycol/water. I think you want to have as little glycol as possible=needed in your system. Due to glycol's bad thermal properties.
The water won't be -40degrees celcius when you run the computer. So no need for a lot of glycol.

bigben2k · 06-20-2002, 08:05 AM

Wow, and I was just guesstimating when I said 6 hrs...

_Mike_ · 06-30-2002, 05:41 PM

I know this thread has probably died, but I had a little computer mishap, and this is the soonest I can get on.

Anyway, I was misunderstood. Yes, testing can be done with a gallon or so of water. HOWEVER, when it comes to running the PC for any length of time, if he uses 1/4 of a gallon, the coolant will spend around 5 seconds chilling, and the rest of the time heating up, until it's too warm to do its job, and is never given the resting time to fully chill.

bigben2k · 07-01-2002, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by _Mike_
I know this thread has proably died, but I had a little computer mishap, and this is the soonest I can get on.

Anyway, I was misunderstood. Yes, testing can be done with a gallon or so of water. HOWEVER, when it comes to running the PC for any length of time, if he uses 1/4 of a gallon, the coolant will spend around 5 seconds chilling, and the rest of the time heating up, until it's too warm to do its job, and is never given the resting time to fully chill.

True, but the lesser amount of water could be chilled faster, or the reverse: the greater amount of water will take a lot more time to chill. It will depend on the max temp that the evaporator can reach. Otherwise, the quantity of water does not affect the performance.

See this thread, we're getting to the heart of the matter (for rads anyways)
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=3601

|PuNiSh3R| · 07-01-2002, 11:50 PM

....

06-18-2002, 12:12 PM	#1
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	Phase Change Resevior.. I am going to submerge my evaporator (icebox in the frige) In a resevior. how much water should I put in the resevior? Think I should use like a 5 gallon bucket? or should I just use enough to cover the evaporator? Should I use water wetter too? I am going to use anti-freeze of course..

06-18-2002, 03:10 PM	#2
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Keep it simple, use a minimal amount. That way, if there are any surprises, you won't have to wait 2-3 hours to find out about them... You can use Water Wetter, but I'd stay away from it unless you have the potential for galvanic corrosion. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-18-2002, 04:37 PM	#4
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	To clarify, your rig will only take longer to reach a stable temperature, if you use lots of water in that bucket. That water acts as a heat transmitter from your computer, to the fridge's cold coils, but that water is also going to be a buffer, i.e. it is going to delay the heat transition, if you use lots of it. So the surprise is having to wait 6 hours to find out your REAL min and max temps. I'm (strangely?) stuck with the idea that you're going to stick that bucket inside what's left of that fridge. If not, then the igloo cooler idea would work. It reminds me of the guy with the freon cooler... he used an igloo cooler, coated the insides, and used that to hold CO2 and Fluorinert. http://www.octools.com/index.cgi?cal...ubmersion.html __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-18-2002, 11:10 PM	#10
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Go with the igloo. Add some styrofoam walls to make it the smallest amount of water, leaving everything submerged. You can also top it off with a floating lid, made of styrofoam: this will reduce coolant loss by evaporation, and keep temps a little more (wee bit) steady. Use the pump leak to flow the water around... LOL! #rotor is right. _mike_'s off the mark. The water needs to be the smallest amount. That way, you'll find out earlier rather than later if your coolant can take the low temp, or if it'll freeze solid. The quantity of coolant has no effect on the system, other than delaying the rise of temperature to the balance point, where the CPU heat is completely dissipated by the cooling coil. Now if you have a LOT of water (i.e. lake, or underground tank) that's another story... I'm really interested in your rig. I've been dodging the whole refrigeration phenom because I always thought it was too complicated (keeping it optimally efficient), and never quite understood how I'd keep it quiet (a humming compressor isn't my idea of quiet). I really like the idea of a chiller, because it's by far an easier and efficient way to reach sub ambiant coolant temps. But after seeing your work, and doing a little research, I just might consider it... I'd build it straight out from scrap though: recycle an old compressor, get that valve, and get some copper tubing. A little soldering (always fun) and a bleed/refill valve, a coolant tank, a water block and a pump. No more of those bulky radiators (heater cores rated to 50 psi) that aren't very efficient because the temp difference just isn't there, and no fan whatsoever (well, except maybe on the compressor!). Looking into finned tubing... Pelt cooling versus phase cooling... How about both?!? __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101 Last edited by bigben2k; 06-18-2002 at 11:16 PM.

06-20-2002, 01:04 AM	#13
Dix Dogfight Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 128	_Mike_ I'm afraid BB2k is right in this matter. The more water you add the longer it will take for the system to reach its equilibrium = stable working temperature. One gallon of water takes approximatley 200 seconds to heat one degree kelvin/celsius with a 80W heat source. So if the temp difference between start and stable temp is 20 degrees. Then the time it takes for the system to reach stable temp is 20200=4000seconds=1h7min. If you make the total volume of water 5 gallons,as you propose, the time it will take to reach equilibrium will be 54000sec=20000sec=5h33min. Now do you really think \|PuNiSh3R\| would want to wait 5h to see if his system is stable? I run my system with approx 0.25 gallon of water, and it works no problemo. However that is only a normal wc-system but the difference between my rad loosing the heat and \|PuNiSh3R\|'s phase change doing the job is indifferent. As for using 50/50 glycol/water. I think you want to have as little glycol as possible=needed in your system. Due to glycol's bad thermal properties. The water won't be -40degrees celcius when you run the computer. So no need for a lot of glycol. __________________ If it ain't broke, fix it. Setup: Dual Duron 1100 \| Voodoo 3 2000 \| Addtronics W8500(WTX) \| Eheim 1250 \| Car radiator \| 2 Innovatech WB \|

06-18-2002, 04:23 PM	#3
_Mike_ Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 29	Your right on the ball with the 5 gallon idea. Ideally, you want to use a insulated container, to keep the "cold" in as much as you can. The best way to insulate it would be to buy an Igloo (TM)-type brand cooler. I don't quite understand what Bigben meant about finding problems, but try what I suggest. As for the coolant, try a 50/50 solution of glycol and water. You will love it.

06-18-2002, 05:01 PM	#5
_Mike_ Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 29	Well, taking 6 hours for the coolant to reach it's maximum cold temperature is a looooong time, I would doubt that. They disadvantage to using 1 gallon though, is he may not find his lowest possible temperature, because the coolant will not be plentiful enough to handle the heat, and never reach full chill-ness. . . (Yes, I invented that word. . .)

06-18-2002, 09:10 PM	#6
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	No.. the resevior will definitly be on the outside. Ok, I will use a cooler to hold it.. I am also putting my pump in it.. as it has a small leak.. I fixed the real major problem with it.. but never could seal up the small leak.. so I can't use it inline. I am going to sketch out my design tonite and if it looks good enough I will take a pic of it and post it up.

06-18-2002, 09:34 PM	#7
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	the smaller you can keep your "cold-body" the better it will perform, because the smaller it is, the lesser the total surface area to it will be, which means less place for heat to enter. now, the volume should be just enough to cover the evaporator completely. The main restricting factor in heat capacity, is the total surface area between the liquid and the evaporator, so you need that to be maximized, before you look at things like proper fluid ventilation in the reservoir, and a couple of other things....

06-18-2002, 09:38 PM	#8
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	so basically.. I want just enough water to keep my entire evap. covered? Not an Igloo Cooler?

06-18-2002, 09:44 PM	#9
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	Right now I am just going to design how I want the compressor case to be.. and how I want the evap cooling to be.. and how I want my PC case to be.. I will have to see if I hear back from this frige guy tomorrow.. if not I will go to a local frige place.

06-19-2002, 02:00 AM	#11
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	I used pelts.. they take a LOT Of electricity.. stay away. I've spent a lot of money here already.. so I am trying to stay on a minimal budget now.. All the fans I will be using are these dead silent PSU fans I found.. I will put a link up if I can find one.

06-19-2002, 09:07 PM	#12
_Mike_ Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 29	I don't think I'm wrong, if he uses just one gallon, he's going to be sorry, I think.

06-20-2002, 08:05 AM	#14
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Wow, and I was just guesstimating when I said 6 hrs... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-30-2002, 05:41 PM	#15
_Mike_ Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 29	I know this thread has probably died, but I had a little computer mishap, and this is the soonest I can get on. Anyway, I was misunderstood. Yes, testing can be done with a gallon or so of water. HOWEVER, when it comes to running the PC for any length of time, if he uses 1/4 of a gallon, the coolant will spend around 5 seconds chilling, and the rest of the time heating up, until it's too warm to do its job, and is never given the resting time to fully chill. Last edited by _Mike_; 07-01-2002 at 07:28 PM.

07-01-2002, 11:50 PM	#17
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	....

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