Argg... air keeps on getting into my system!!!

babybunny · 07-12-2002, 11:53 PM

It's me again, the guy with the two aquavia's. I sealed everything to hell with goop, tightened the hose clamps as much as possible, and bled the thing five times, shaking the radiator, waterblocks, hoses, and pumps to make sure that THERE WAS NO AIR.

But air bubbles have started to appear in the two days that I've had this running. They're everywhere now. I can see em, making my water milky. I don't know where they're coming from, but since air can obviously come in, does that mean that water can come out? Because if that's the case... shist.

Any ideas?

scythe · 07-13-2002, 01:35 AM

Man that is 100% odd , i keep loosing water out of my air trap for some reason i see no leaks no residue of any kind or ANYTHING. i doubt theres still air in my system. I loose like 1 centimeter of water every two days or so maybe its just evaporating

Sanjuro · 07-13-2002, 03:12 AM

I could be wrong, but this is what I think is happening: Everytime the cooling system is in use (or just with the pump on even) water temp would be higher than the surrounding air, which means water is gonna evaporate and mix with the air in the airtrap. Now since everything expands, the extra stuff has to go somewhere. Most likely moisture will escape from a weak point of the cooling system, either a bad radiator solder point or following the thread of hose barbs. When the system cools down from less usage, it then sucks air back into the loop via the same path. So over and over coolant will be lost. Secondly, there is always cavitation. Basically at the tip of a spinning impeller water pressure drop is usually real big, therefore a TINY amount of water gets to a point that they can boil at room temperature. (This is what happens with ship impellers. The bubble they make don't just appear out of nowhere!) When they boil they become water bubbles, then either they stay with the coolant loop or they push coolant out of the system because of their added volume. Again, I don't know if i'm correct, but thats my $0.02

koslov · 07-13-2002, 03:47 AM

Bunny, maybe you have a pinhole somewhere in your tubes that is causing bubbles to enter slowly.

I am wondering if it is possible to eliminate this and evaporation by having a closed air trap. Let's say your reservoir where the highest point in the system... and say you leave an inch of space left above the water... would not the bubbles become trapped there, and since it is the highest point in the system, the bubbles would not reenter the water flow?

RedTalon19 · 07-13-2002, 04:29 AM

i also have the same problem... actually i've had it ever since i setup this rig.... eheim 1250 pump, rc fuel tank as air trap, 1/2" silicon tubing, spir@l, heater core from dtek..... works great just bout once a month i gotta fill the 12oz air trap from 2/3 full to the top... its not bad but i know i could drop my temps if i could get all the air out sometime....

when i finally get a new case i'm goona move the air trap to a higher point in the system, instead of at the lowest point next to the pump... know that isnt helping at all...

bigben2k · 07-13-2002, 09:27 AM

For those of you with the prob of air entering the system, try clamping your pump intake a little tighter. If that fails, then consider covering the pump's impeller housing with some kind of sealant.

Water will expand by about 0.25% in volume, as it is heated. In a rig with 1/2 gallon of coolant, that's 5 mL, or 25 drops.

If you are loosing water, it may be because you are using silicone tubing: it's known to allow water to evaporate.

babybunny · 07-13-2002, 10:58 AM

I don't think that I could make an air trap because the water flowing through my system is so fast. Basically, fast water flowing out and into the air trap would froth up the water inside it, churning up even more air bubbles and creating noise. Basically, the air trap would need to be a damn big one to get past the effects of the high water flow.

Just to give you an idea, when I was bleeding it, I set the intake end 2 or 3 inches under the water to make sure that it didn't accidentally suck in any air. I looked away for a sec and started hearing the sound of air being sucked in. I looked back and the blasted thing had actually created a whirlpool underwater in which it got to the air!

babybunny · 07-13-2002, 11:02 AM

I'm intrigued by cavitation. Does anyone else with an aquavia 1300 or other high GPH pump notice this?

So silicone allows evaporation, huh? What about tygon? Is there any way to counter this besides buy some other material?

bigben2k · 07-13-2002, 11:49 AM

Any vinyl tubing won't "sweat", including Tygon.

Ya'll need to know that the relative pressure at the pump intake is negative, i.e. it is lower than the atmospheric pressure, and that's where, very ofter, air gets sucked in.

scythe · 07-13-2002, 01:22 PM

ya i use silicon im thinking of switching to tygon maybe when a new radical waterblock comes out and i have to upgrade my maze 2 i will switch but a few centimeters isnt much and i can deal with it i just fill up my air trap when the water is almost at the t fitting the air trap hose is about 5 - 6 inches so it takes about a month or two.

crane · 07-13-2002, 03:49 PM

I have a neat little air trap that i use...its T'ed in at the top of my loop and it has a plastic rod inside that pushes a plunger up, sealing the trap when the system is under pressure. It allows air to constantly bleed (if necc.) ,yet keeps the liquid inside.
Let me know if your interested and i'll post a pic.

koslov · 07-13-2002, 04:43 PM

Sounds cool, how ingenious. Sure, let's see a pic.

crane · 07-13-2002, 05:31 PM

Here..its out of a carpet steam cleaner if you want to scavenge one.
edit to add: shit ,i hate uploading images to vbb boards...gotta jump through hoops to do it. I'll have to edit and repost image.

07-12-2002, 11:53 PM	#1
babybunny Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: USA - Ohio Posts: 120	Argg... air keeps on getting into my system!!! It's me again, the guy with the two aquavia's. I sealed everything to hell with goop, tightened the hose clamps as much as possible, and bled the thing five times, shaking the radiator, waterblocks, hoses, and pumps to make sure that THERE WAS NO AIR. But air bubbles have started to appear in the two days that I've had this running. They're everywhere now. I can see em, making my water milky. I don't know where they're coming from, but since air can obviously come in, does that mean that water can come out? Because if that's the case... shist. Any ideas? Last edited by babybunny; 07-13-2002 at 12:02 AM.

07-13-2002, 01:35 AM	#2
scythe Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: fp , michigan Posts: 76	Man that is 100% odd , i keep loosing water out of my air trap for some reason i see no leaks no residue of any kind or ANYTHING. i doubt theres still air in my system. I loose like 1 centimeter of water every two days or so maybe its just evaporating __________________ ...[-_-]... +-{ i }-+ ....[][].....

07-13-2002, 03:12 AM	#3
Sanjuro Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Port Coquitlam, BC Posts: 74	I could be wrong, but this is what I think is happening: Everytime the cooling system is in use (or just with the pump on even) water temp would be higher than the surrounding air, which means water is gonna evaporate and mix with the air in the airtrap. Now since everything expands, the extra stuff has to go somewhere. Most likely moisture will escape from a weak point of the cooling system, either a bad radiator solder point or following the thread of hose barbs. When the system cools down from less usage, it then sucks air back into the loop via the same path. So over and over coolant will be lost. Secondly, there is always cavitation. Basically at the tip of a spinning impeller water pressure drop is usually real big, therefore a TINY amount of water gets to a point that they can boil at room temperature. (This is what happens with ship impellers. The bubble they make don't just appear out of nowhere!) When they boil they become water bubbles, then either they stay with the coolant loop or they push coolant out of the system because of their added volume. Again, I don't know if i'm correct, but thats my $0.02 __________________ Nothing to call home about...

07-13-2002, 04:29 AM	#5
RedTalon19 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: PA Posts: 96	i also have the same problem... actually i've had it ever since i setup this rig.... eheim 1250 pump, rc fuel tank as air trap, 1/2" silicon tubing, spir@l, heater core from dtek..... works great just bout once a month i gotta fill the 12oz air trap from 2/3 full to the top... its not bad but i know i could drop my temps if i could get all the air out sometime.... when i finally get a new case i'm goona move the air trap to a higher point in the system, instead of at the lowest point next to the pump... know that isnt helping at all... __________________ i am myself not anybody else and thats who i am and not who you are so dont be like me because i am myself.

07-13-2002, 09:27 AM	#6
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	For those of you with the prob of air entering the system, try clamping your pump intake a little tighter. If that fails, then consider covering the pump's impeller housing with some kind of sealant. Water will expand by about 0.25% in volume, as it is heated. In a rig with 1/2 gallon of coolant, that's 5 mL, or 25 drops. If you are loosing water, it may be because you are using silicone tubing: it's known to allow water to evaporate. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

07-13-2002, 03:47 AM	#4
koslov Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Posts: 264	Bunny, maybe you have a pinhole somewhere in your tubes that is causing bubbles to enter slowly. I am wondering if it is possible to eliminate this and evaporation by having a closed air trap. Let's say your reservoir where the highest point in the system... and say you leave an inch of space left above the water... would not the bubbles become trapped there, and since it is the highest point in the system, the bubbles would not reenter the water flow?

07-13-2002, 10:58 AM	#7
babybunny Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: USA - Ohio Posts: 120	I don't think that I could make an air trap because the water flowing through my system is so fast. Basically, fast water flowing out and into the air trap would froth up the water inside it, churning up even more air bubbles and creating noise. Basically, the air trap would need to be a damn big one to get past the effects of the high water flow. Just to give you an idea, when I was bleeding it, I set the intake end 2 or 3 inches under the water to make sure that it didn't accidentally suck in any air. I looked away for a sec and started hearing the sound of air being sucked in. I looked back and the blasted thing had actually created a whirlpool underwater in which it got to the air!

07-13-2002, 11:02 AM	#8
babybunny Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: USA - Ohio Posts: 120	I'm intrigued by cavitation. Does anyone else with an aquavia 1300 or other high GPH pump notice this? So silicone allows evaporation, huh? What about tygon? Is there any way to counter this besides buy some other material?

07-13-2002, 11:49 AM	#9
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Any vinyl tubing won't "sweat", including Tygon. Ya'll need to know that the relative pressure at the pump intake is negative, i.e. it is lower than the atmospheric pressure, and that's where, very ofter, air gets sucked in. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

07-13-2002, 01:22 PM	#10
scythe Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: fp , michigan Posts: 76	ya i use silicon im thinking of switching to tygon maybe when a new radical waterblock comes out and i have to upgrade my maze 2 i will switch but a few centimeters isnt much and i can deal with it i just fill up my air trap when the water is almost at the t fitting the air trap hose is about 5 - 6 inches so it takes about a month or two. __________________ ...[-_-]... +-{ i }-+ ....[][].....

07-13-2002, 03:49 PM	#11
crane Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: so cal Posts: 82	I have a neat little air trap that i use...its T'ed in at the top of my loop and it has a plastic rod inside that pushes a plunger up, sealing the trap when the system is under pressure. It allows air to constantly bleed (if necc.) ,yet keeps the liquid inside. Let me know if your interested and i'll post a pic. __________________ dirt rules

07-13-2002, 04:43 PM	#12
koslov Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Posts: 264	Sounds cool, how ingenious. Sure, let's see a pic.

07-13-2002, 05:31 PM	#13
crane Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: so cal Posts: 82	Here..its out of a carpet steam cleaner if you want to scavenge one. edit to add: shit ,i hate uploading images to vbb boards...gotta jump through hoops to do it. I'll have to edit and repost image. __________________ dirt rules Last edited by crane; 07-13-2002 at 05:35 PM.

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