Water Cooling Dying?

Joe · 10-13-2002, 02:09 PM

Over the past few weeks I have been pondering the future of this hobby. A question that keeps coming up in my head is "is water cooling dying or going that route?" Here’s my rationale for that question:

1. Current HSF's and Fans while being loud can cool very close to what a raw water cooled system runs.

2. Prices of very good HSF's are down as low as 20$ where as good and quality watercooling system will cost an investment of near 200$

3. New CPU's that are selling at clock speeds of near 3Ghz are here, is OC'n needed on the CPU? Now I know OC'n isn't just about speed, but getting more out of what you have. I can appreciate it, but the question comes up... Is it worth the headaches that are associated with high OC's?

Back 3.5 years ago when OC'n a P200MMX to 255Mhz was considered the most bad OC around, people would sacrifice the stability for a lil additional kick in speed and a few more FPS ( since back then most games were still all software rendered).

With that said, today with CPU's nearing 3Ghz, there is PLENTY of CPU power for almost any application, but the Video card, memory tech, and AGP/PCI interfaces are the bottle necks of the system. One thing that DOES have an impact and some serious potential still is the cooling and OC'n of the video gear since they are now putting out such extreme amounts of heat compared to what they were just a year ago.

4. For extreme cooling, Phase Change systems are becoming cheaper, and more easily accessible to most users. They can even be made from household appliances with some mods. Now when I say Extreme cooling I am talking about sub ambient cooling, not raw water cooling.

Heres my thoughts on how this industry will be changing in the next year or so:

HSF technology will grow slowly since it is already at the peak of Heat dissipation technology (well.. the technology that’s mass producible and affordable). With some advances of Heat Pipes I think you will see HSF's and HSF/Heat Pipes take the place of the base line watercooling setups.

For noise reasons normal watercooling will remain around, but it will be used for noise more than anything else, I think you will see some of the market start to shrink also as the practicality of watercooling starts to evaporate for most geeks.

Phase Change will replace Watercooled systems as the answer for high end cooling but still very quiet. I think within a year or 2 you will see Phase Change systems drop into the 300$ price range or less. Since most of these are bolt on and go type setups they offer less headaches than watercooling and provide a much more maintenance free setup.

Now I am not saying that watercoolings going to up and disappear, just saying I think the "boom" that everyone has seen is going to start to taper off as the hardware just doesn’t need it, since extreme OC's will start to matter less and less.

Now this is just all my opinion, and I may be wrong, But I think it makes a lot of sense that we will see the HSF and Phase change technologies start to squeeze in on watercooling at the top and the bottom end.

What you think??

pHaestus · 10-13-2002, 02:23 PM

I would have agreed with you until I started messing with that TBred. The 10-15% extra cooling that water provides is basically all that is keeping it under 60C. The heat DENSITY is going up up up, and THAT is an issue. Could be that silver inserts may become necessary; or jet on die cooling.

In the end, water cooling trades an additional junction (block to water then water to rad) for enormous surface area (can't fit the kinda surface area of a heatercore on a CPU). This is a good tradeoff as long as efficient heat transfer from die to block can take place. Looking at some of Bill's data, the TIM joint is often the limit.

The other thing about future cooling needs is that we need to focus on Intel more because AMD may not be around in any real sense. (I hate to say it, but they are in trouble)

Phase change is a very robust technology, but I don't see an affordable phase change solution being released any time soon. I CAN visualize a mass marketed water chiller though that would use existing water cooled parts to push performance limits. That doesn't marginalize water cooling though in any way.

In an environment where people spend $100 on LIGHTING for their cases, it is hard to imagine that water cooling is going to vanish. More and more systems put together for "show" rather than "go" are being seen. If manufacturers can accomodate this (and they seem to be), there will be a market.

Heat pipes are good for some apps, but they require CPU temps higher than I typically want to really work. I would be scared to see how hot my notebook's chip gets under load...

A rhetorical question: Has watercooling EVER been anything other than a hobbiest activity? People have always gone back to heatsinks when they are too busy to maintain a water-cooled system and stepped up to extreme cooling when they wanted bigger o/cs.

mfpmax · 10-13-2002, 03:09 PM

Water Cooling won't die anytime soon.
People fear it, and those that dabble in it are looked upon like gods and use it as a means of "Bragging Rights".
Besides, I see way too many "newbs" on forums asking about watercooling.

I know when I get my second setup done, take it to the upcoming lan party...I will have people standing around me admiring it...even though my first system was over 2 years ago, they will still look in aww at the fact there is water flowing like blood inside my computer.

That and it'll look hella sweet inside my "seemingly" stock Antec case...no windows, no lights, no giant holes baby...all stealth.

DarkEdge · 10-13-2002, 03:35 PM

The only thing I can see replacing water cooling would be phase change setups. I really don't think its going to become less attractive though. I do think the attention that watercooling is getting will die down. Its beoming more and more common to see a watercooled setup. With the introduction of koolance and kits that manufactures are making now I think its to be expected.

pHaestus · 10-13-2002, 04:30 PM

Water cooling mfgrs should pay close attention to that "cool chips" technology in the pipe. If more efficient peltier-type cooling is available soon, water will be the logical choice to cool it.

Regarding CPUs being "fast enough"; I don't see that affecting water cooling as long as there are motherboards that let you o/c. There will always be a segment that will pay $200 for cooling to o/c a $50 chip to the speed of the $250 top end; doesn't HAVE to make sense to be successful.

bigben2k · 10-13-2002, 04:57 PM

Ok, Joe, are you having a bad day or something? Did your gf kick you in the jewels or something? Geesh!

I agree with pHaestus: it's a hobby, and it's going to be that, mostly, for quite some time. As you've pointed out so often, it's no good for reliability, because there's always a danger of leaks.

As with everything else, what I think we'll see, is an improvement in the reliability of watercooling gears: let's face it, right now, there are way too many things that could go wrong.

With that in mind, the key words are going to be redundancy and failsafe. Unfortunately, that comes at a price too, so it's back to a cost/benefit issue. Overclocking is, and should always be treated as a separate aspect of using our gears.

Phase change will most definitely make some progress: as a hobby, it's so complicated that one has to spend an outrageous amount of time simply learning about it. I myself wouldn't get into it right now, and I have spent a large amount of time researching the subject.

Pelt cooling will probably see some progress too, as long as new pelts come out. Right now, it's a pretty quiet field.

Joe · 10-13-2002, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
Ok, Joe, are you having a bad day or something? Did your gf kick you in the jewels or something? Geesh!

Umm no... just pondering. And OC has everything to do with what this hobby is. There is a SMALL faction of people who watercool ONLY for noise reasons. Most people watercool for OC reasons. If OC stops being feasable or needed, you will see exotic cooling methods also dissapear.

And deny it, but many many companies have tried to push watercooling as a Main stream, and market it to far more than just hobby type folk. ( who can blame em, its good business)

I am not at all saying "watercooling sucks!" I am just saying a market for it may start to shrink in the coming year or so as many people may see water as being too expensive for what it gives them. There are people that this doesnt matter to, and thats all good.

I know talk about water cooling die'n will get lots of people all hot and bothered since they just got a new watercooling rig and now they read Watercooling is dying... Which that in itself is rather funny

you buy a new car when you hear the press say there is a new faster car than yours out? ( well maybe Nevin at Arctic Silver does hehehehe

(inside joke))

bigakita · 10-13-2002, 05:47 PM

Joe, you have a point, but there are other reasons that people watercool. I could easily get a new Thermalright SLK-800 and slap a 120mm on it and have cooling as effective and quiet as a water rig, but you lose the "Holy Crap!" factor.

I like to build rigs that are not only effective, but also aesthetically pleasing. I also like to throw water in them not only for the cooling effectiveness, but for the visual impact that it has. People who don't mod that see a watercooled rig think that the builder is nuts for putting water in an electronic device, but they appreciate the risk and engineering at the same time.

Cooling is becoming more mainstream than ever. Many resellers like Directron are producing their own branded watercooling rigs. Yes, it is more expensive, but the visual effect and cooling benefits make it well worth the effort. Phase change and TEC's are a lot more difficult to manage than watercooling. I ran a 172W TEC system a year ago and had so many headaches trying to manage condensation that I finally yanked it. I will be using it as an inline cooling accessory for my rig I'm currently building.

I don't believe that watercooling is losing momentum. I believe that the new generation of computer users that have lived with these systems will embrace it even more than we do. They understand that a computer is a tool that can be modified to taste, much like the hot-rodders of the 50's and early 60's found out that cars could be modified to reflect their personality.

BTW, Hi. I'm new to the forum, but not new to the world of mods and cooling. I have been around a couple of years and hope I can assist and provide input to the members here.

pHaestus · 10-13-2002, 06:02 PM

Bigakita: Do you have an akita, or just recognize that they are large mammals? We had one when I was a kid. Best dog I have ever personally known.

Joe · 10-13-2002, 07:11 PM

Yes I know that people have watercooling rigs for more than practical reasons.

I mean it can be compared to people butting parts of a 747 and mellon launchers on their 90hp Honduh civics

but I do understand that looks means alot to people when it comes to their PC. Personally I look at it almost entirely from functionality and performance stand points.

I mean to me a efficient and well designed system whether it be air, water, or phase change all look damn nice

mfpmax · 10-13-2002, 07:18 PM

I watercool for function...the admiration just happens to be a fortunate side effect

And there is nothing wrong with putting a Pratt and Whitney jet engine from a 747 onto a car...its perfectly normal.

bigakita · 10-13-2002, 07:48 PM

Yes, I own the largest Akita ever registered with the AKC. His registered name is Harley Von Heineken. He's a pretty big bro. He kept breaking into my fridge and snatching my beer when he was a puppy, guess that's why he got so big.

I think mfpmax summed it up in his statement "I watercool for function...the admiration just happens to be a fortunate side effect". Ain't it the truth. I mod for both form and function.

Do you have to have windows in your rig? No.

Do you want windows so you can see the work you put into the wire routing and interior paint? Yes.

Do you need to swap out the factory LED's with color coordinated ones? No.

Does it drive you crazy if your rig is not color coordinated? Yes.

Form and function. Make the function match the form you envision. Don't make the form match the function. Deep crap, huh?

I think we are all in agreement here that good rigs are also functional, that includes the cooling mods that watercooling affectionado's implement. Joe's closing statement pretty much sums up my feelings, "to me a efficient and well designed system whether it be air, water, or phase change all look damn nice."

Hella nice.

phreenet · 10-13-2002, 08:54 PM

Joey, thats Heresy, stop before you are burned at the stake or something.

DarkEdge · 10-13-2002, 09:03 PM

I want a picture of the dog next to your computer.

jamicon · 10-14-2002, 06:58 AM

the way i see it, if you have 200m of hose rolled up in a micro ATX, it looks ugly, more than ugly, FUGLY!

i watercool for quietness and form. Although the p4 cooler is slightly quieter than my watercooler, it is a whine instead of a 'woosh' sort of sound.

the way i see it, a watercooler should have most of the hoseing hidden, or neat, not just going from the bottom of the case and cutting right across the top of the vid card to get to the cpu.

phreenet · 10-14-2002, 07:59 PM

I like copper tubing setups. Those are butter moist

mfpmax · 10-14-2002, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by phreenet
I like copper tubing setups. Those are butter moist

also fun to build...

if you like cursing of course

HelpImNewbish · 10-14-2002, 08:35 PM

What exactly do you mean by phase change? I know, I know, i should go read in the phase change thread or something, but do you mean using chillers and pelts with a system, or something more? Where can you get these bolt on and go phase change systems you talk about now?

mfpmax · 10-14-2002, 08:43 PM

phase change, same thing they teach in high school science.

Using a gas and changing to a liquid and somewhere in there utiliziing its properties to cool.

garetjax · 10-14-2002, 10:21 PM

Hey,

My current water rig is waiting for new tygon tubing, should be here tomorrow. In the meantime my stuff is in my old box being cooled by an sk6 with a 5000rpm "quieter" fan. I also have 4 case fans, all panaflows, all on a baybus running at 5 volts and its still a hell of a lot louder than my water rig.

Once you have had a water rig, everything sounds so loud. I think as long as people want quiet rigs they will stay in this hobby.

I also think that watercooling gpu's is going to overtake cpu's. For instance buying a ti4200 for $160 and overclocking it to ti4600 speeds instead of buying that ti4600 for $300.

mfpmax · 10-14-2002, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by garetjax

Once you have had a water rig, everything sounds so loud. I think as long as people want quiet rigs they will stay in this hobby.

I have that problem when I turn off my computer now with just the AMD OEM Heatsink. I turn off the computer...and then I have to turn down my TV.

Heavy_Equipment · 10-14-2002, 11:27 PM

I am slowly walking away from OCing. I'm finding I'm happy with a quiet, visually appealing water cooling setup...without the need for anything extreme.

Bigfoot computers, in Toronto, is getting a full stock of water cooling gear in soon due to popular demand. Shows the H20 community is alive and well around here. I think the hardware industry is in trouble though.
I agree with pH about AMD being in trouble, they are three paper launches ahead of themselves. I'll even go a step further...AMD is screwed. I can't complain about stock speeds now really, (1.4 GHz+ is actually tons...outside of a "mine's bigger than yours" scenario) and the "theoretical" 2800+ for example, is way faster than anything I need. Double whammy for AMD right there...they are struggling to get the latest chips running, and people like me won't buy them anyway. I'm done buying new hardware for awhile.

My current hardware will last me nicely, for a couple years anyway. I won't need to upgrade until the software catches up. UT2003 only needs 733 MHz, and it's bleeding edge. I'll focus on making this system look it's best...but it'll be the last money I'll be spending for awhile.

DarkEdge · 10-14-2002, 11:41 PM

You hit the nail on the head there. Its the lack of software thats causing the weak sales of hardware. I would say around 95-99, or in that area is when computers took off. Remember when the Pentiums came out and every month there was a new cpu speed almost. I had bought a compaw p100 and 3 months later they had 150s and 166s. Granted there is a very good chance my memory is off, but I do know sales were awesome. Voodoo was king.

The only industry I see staying strong is GPU manufactures, and probally CD/DVD drives. People are getting into the digital age now and myself including. I love ripping movies, and am looking into a dvd burner now. 1:1 copies would be really cool.

If you ask me, if the gaming market wasn't there, alot of companies would be hurting for sales more then they are now.

mfpmax · 10-15-2002, 12:09 AM

Video Games have been driving the CPU and video card market for awhile now...

Problem is, the lastest thing to come about is Doom 3...

pHaestus · 10-15-2002, 12:42 AM

You'll see it with Doom3 too. Everyone's system was awesome....then Quake3 came out.

10-13-2002, 02:09 PM	#1
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Water Cooling Dying? Over the past few weeks I have been pondering the future of this hobby. A question that keeps coming up in my head is "is water cooling dying or going that route?" Here’s my rationale for that question: 1. Current HSF's and Fans while being loud can cool very close to what a raw water cooled system runs. 2. Prices of very good HSF's are down as low as 20$ where as good and quality watercooling system will cost an investment of near 200$ 3. New CPU's that are selling at clock speeds of near 3Ghz are here, is OC'n needed on the CPU? Now I know OC'n isn't just about speed, but getting more out of what you have. I can appreciate it, but the question comes up... Is it worth the headaches that are associated with high OC's? Back 3.5 years ago when OC'n a P200MMX to 255Mhz was considered the most bad OC around, people would sacrifice the stability for a lil additional kick in speed and a few more FPS ( since back then most games were still all software rendered). With that said, today with CPU's nearing 3Ghz, there is PLENTY of CPU power for almost any application, but the Video card, memory tech, and AGP/PCI interfaces are the bottle necks of the system. One thing that DOES have an impact and some serious potential still is the cooling and OC'n of the video gear since they are now putting out such extreme amounts of heat compared to what they were just a year ago. 4. For extreme cooling, Phase Change systems are becoming cheaper, and more easily accessible to most users. They can even be made from household appliances with some mods. Now when I say Extreme cooling I am talking about sub ambient cooling, not raw water cooling. Heres my thoughts on how this industry will be changing in the next year or so: HSF technology will grow slowly since it is already at the peak of Heat dissipation technology (well.. the technology that’s mass producible and affordable). With some advances of Heat Pipes I think you will see HSF's and HSF/Heat Pipes take the place of the base line watercooling setups. For noise reasons normal watercooling will remain around, but it will be used for noise more than anything else, I think you will see some of the market start to shrink also as the practicality of watercooling starts to evaporate for most geeks. Phase Change will replace Watercooled systems as the answer for high end cooling but still very quiet. I think within a year or 2 you will see Phase Change systems drop into the 300$ price range or less. Since most of these are bolt on and go type setups they offer less headaches than watercooling and provide a much more maintenance free setup. Now I am not saying that watercoolings going to up and disappear, just saying I think the "boom" that everyone has seen is going to start to taper off as the hardware just doesn’t need it, since extreme OC's will start to matter less and less. Now this is just all my opinion, and I may be wrong, But I think it makes a lot of sense that we will see the HSF and Phase change technologies start to squeeze in on watercooling at the top and the bottom end. What you think?? __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-13-2002, 03:09 PM	#3
mfpmax Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rockledge,FL,US Posts: 731	Water Cooling won't die anytime soon. People fear it, and those that dabble in it are looked upon like gods and use it as a means of "Bragging Rights". Besides, I see way too many "newbs" on forums asking about watercooling. I know when I get my second setup done, take it to the upcoming lan party...I will have people standing around me admiring it...even though my first system was over 2 years ago, they will still look in aww at the fact there is water flowing like blood inside my computer. That and it'll look hella sweet inside my "seemingly" stock Antec case...no windows, no lights, no giant holes baby...all stealth. __________________ My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz

10-13-2002, 04:57 PM	#6
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Ok, Joe, are you having a bad day or something? Did your gf kick you in the jewels or something? Geesh! I agree with pHaestus: it's a hobby, and it's going to be that, mostly, for quite some time. As you've pointed out so often, it's no good for reliability, because there's always a danger of leaks. As with everything else, what I think we'll see, is an improvement in the reliability of watercooling gears: let's face it, right now, there are way too many things that could go wrong. With that in mind, the key words are going to be redundancy and failsafe. Unfortunately, that comes at a price too, so it's back to a cost/benefit issue. Overclocking is, and should always be treated as a separate aspect of using our gears. Phase change will most definitely make some progress: as a hobby, it's so complicated that one has to spend an outrageous amount of time simply learning about it. I myself wouldn't get into it right now, and I have spent a large amount of time researching the subject. Pelt cooling will probably see some progress too, as long as new pelts come out. Right now, it's a pretty quiet field. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

10-13-2002, 07:11 PM	#10
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Yes I know that people have watercooling rigs for more than practical reasons. I mean it can be compared to people butting parts of a 747 and mellon launchers on their 90hp Honduh civics but I do understand that looks means alot to people when it comes to their PC. Personally I look at it almost entirely from functionality and performance stand points. I mean to me a efficient and well designed system whether it be air, water, or phase change all look damn nice __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-13-2002, 07:18 PM	#11
mfpmax Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rockledge,FL,US Posts: 731	I watercool for function...the admiration just happens to be a fortunate side effect And there is nothing wrong with putting a Pratt and Whitney jet engine from a 747 onto a car...its perfectly normal. __________________ My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz

10-13-2002, 02:23 PM	#2
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	I would have agreed with you until I started messing with that TBred. The 10-15% extra cooling that water provides is basically all that is keeping it under 60C. The heat DENSITY is going up up up, and THAT is an issue. Could be that silver inserts may become necessary; or jet on die cooling. In the end, water cooling trades an additional junction (block to water then water to rad) for enormous surface area (can't fit the kinda surface area of a heatercore on a CPU). This is a good tradeoff as long as efficient heat transfer from die to block can take place. Looking at some of Bill's data, the TIM joint is often the limit. The other thing about future cooling needs is that we need to focus on Intel more because AMD may not be around in any real sense. (I hate to say it, but they are in trouble) Phase change is a very robust technology, but I don't see an affordable phase change solution being released any time soon. I CAN visualize a mass marketed water chiller though that would use existing water cooled parts to push performance limits. That doesn't marginalize water cooling though in any way. In an environment where people spend $100 on LIGHTING for their cases, it is hard to imagine that water cooling is going to vanish. More and more systems put together for "show" rather than "go" are being seen. If manufacturers can accomodate this (and they seem to be), there will be a market. Heat pipes are good for some apps, but they require CPU temps higher than I typically want to really work. I would be scared to see how hot my notebook's chip gets under load... A rhetorical question: Has watercooling EVER been anything other than a hobbiest activity? People have always gone back to heatsinks when they are too busy to maintain a water-cooled system and stepped up to extreme cooling when they wanted bigger o/cs.

10-13-2002, 03:35 PM	#4
DarkEdge Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sugar Land, Tx Posts: 176	The only thing I can see replacing water cooling would be phase change setups. I really don't think its going to become less attractive though. I do think the attention that watercooling is getting will die down. Its beoming more and more common to see a watercooled setup. With the introduction of koolance and kits that manufactures are making now I think its to be expected.

10-13-2002, 04:30 PM	#5
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Water cooling mfgrs should pay close attention to that "cool chips" technology in the pipe. If more efficient peltier-type cooling is available soon, water will be the logical choice to cool it. Regarding CPUs being "fast enough"; I don't see that affecting water cooling as long as there are motherboards that let you o/c. There will always be a segment that will pay $200 for cooling to o/c a $50 chip to the speed of the $250 top end; doesn't HAVE to make sense to be successful.

10-13-2002, 05:47 PM	#8
bigakita Just wouldnt stop being Stupid Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Nirvana Posts: 8	Joe, you have a point, but there are other reasons that people watercool. I could easily get a new Thermalright SLK-800 and slap a 120mm on it and have cooling as effective and quiet as a water rig, but you lose the "Holy Crap!" factor. I like to build rigs that are not only effective, but also aesthetically pleasing. I also like to throw water in them not only for the cooling effectiveness, but for the visual impact that it has. People who don't mod that see a watercooled rig think that the builder is nuts for putting water in an electronic device, but they appreciate the risk and engineering at the same time. Cooling is becoming more mainstream than ever. Many resellers like Directron are producing their own branded watercooling rigs. Yes, it is more expensive, but the visual effect and cooling benefits make it well worth the effort. Phase change and TEC's are a lot more difficult to manage than watercooling. I ran a 172W TEC system a year ago and had so many headaches trying to manage condensation that I finally yanked it. I will be using it as an inline cooling accessory for my rig I'm currently building. I don't believe that watercooling is losing momentum. I believe that the new generation of computer users that have lived with these systems will embrace it even more than we do. They understand that a computer is a tool that can be modified to taste, much like the hot-rodders of the 50's and early 60's found out that cars could be modified to reflect their personality. BTW, Hi. I'm new to the forum, but not new to the world of mods and cooling. I have been around a couple of years and hope I can assist and provide input to the members here.

10-13-2002, 06:02 PM	#9
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Bigakita: Do you have an akita, or just recognize that they are large mammals? We had one when I was a kid. Best dog I have ever personally known.

10-13-2002, 07:48 PM	#12
bigakita Just wouldnt stop being Stupid Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Nirvana Posts: 8	Yes, I own the largest Akita ever registered with the AKC. His registered name is Harley Von Heineken. He's a pretty big bro. He kept breaking into my fridge and snatching my beer when he was a puppy, guess that's why he got so big. I think mfpmax summed it up in his statement "I watercool for function...the admiration just happens to be a fortunate side effect". Ain't it the truth. I mod for both form and function. Do you have to have windows in your rig? No. Do you want windows so you can see the work you put into the wire routing and interior paint? Yes. Do you need to swap out the factory LED's with color coordinated ones? No. Does it drive you crazy if your rig is not color coordinated? Yes. Form and function. Make the function match the form you envision. Don't make the form match the function. Deep crap, huh? I think we are all in agreement here that good rigs are also functional, that includes the cooling mods that watercooling affectionado's implement. Joe's closing statement pretty much sums up my feelings, "to me a efficient and well designed system whether it be air, water, or phase change all look damn nice." Hella nice.

10-13-2002, 08:54 PM	#13
phreenet Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Gloucester, Virginia Posts: 356	Joey, thats Heresy, stop before you are burned at the stake or something. __________________ Dual Pentium!!! 933@1107 Liquid Cooled.

10-13-2002, 09:03 PM	#14
DarkEdge Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sugar Land, Tx Posts: 176	I want a picture of the dog next to your computer.

10-14-2002, 06:58 AM	#15
jamicon Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 44	the way i see it, if you have 200m of hose rolled up in a micro ATX, it looks ugly, more than ugly, FUGLY! i watercool for quietness and form. Although the p4 cooler is slightly quieter than my watercooler, it is a whine instead of a 'woosh' sort of sound. the way i see it, a watercooler should have most of the hoseing hidden, or neat, not just going from the bottom of the case and cutting right across the top of the vid card to get to the cpu.

10-14-2002, 07:59 PM	#16
phreenet Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Gloucester, Virginia Posts: 356	I like copper tubing setups. Those are butter moist __________________ Dual Pentium!!! 933@1107 Liquid Cooled.

10-14-2002, 08:35 PM	#18
HelpImNewbish Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Hickville Posts: 41	What exactly do you mean by phase change? I know, I know, i should go read in the phase change thread or something, but do you mean using chillers and pelts with a system, or something more? Where can you get these bolt on and go phase change systems you talk about now? __________________ The name says it all.

10-14-2002, 08:43 PM	#19
mfpmax Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rockledge,FL,US Posts: 731	phase change, same thing they teach in high school science. Using a gas and changing to a liquid and somewhere in there utiliziing its properties to cool. __________________ My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz

10-14-2002, 10:21 PM	#20
garetjax Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mass, USA Posts: 48	Hey, My current water rig is waiting for new tygon tubing, should be here tomorrow. In the meantime my stuff is in my old box being cooled by an sk6 with a 5000rpm "quieter" fan. I also have 4 case fans, all panaflows, all on a baybus running at 5 volts and its still a hell of a lot louder than my water rig. Once you have had a water rig, everything sounds so loud. I think as long as people want quiet rigs they will stay in this hobby. I also think that watercooling gpu's is going to overtake cpu's. For instance buying a ti4200 for $160 and overclocking it to ti4600 speeds instead of buying that ti4600 for $300.

10-14-2002, 11:27 PM	#22
Heavy_Equipment Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Newmarket, Ontario, Canada Posts: 282	I am slowly walking away from OCing. I'm finding I'm happy with a quiet, visually appealing water cooling setup...without the need for anything extreme. Bigfoot computers, in Toronto, is getting a full stock of water cooling gear in soon due to popular demand. Shows the H20 community is alive and well around here. I think the hardware industry is in trouble though. I agree with pH about AMD being in trouble, they are three paper launches ahead of themselves. I'll even go a step further...AMD is screwed. I can't complain about stock speeds now really, (1.4 GHz+ is actually tons...outside of a "mine's bigger than yours" scenario) and the "theoretical" 2800+ for example, is way faster than anything I need. Double whammy for AMD right there...they are struggling to get the latest chips running, and people like me won't buy them anyway. I'm done buying new hardware for awhile. My current hardware will last me nicely, for a couple years anyway. I won't need to upgrade until the software catches up. UT2003 only needs 733 MHz, and it's bleeding edge. I'll focus on making this system look it's best...but it'll be the last money I'll be spending for awhile.

10-14-2002, 11:41 PM	#23
DarkEdge Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sugar Land, Tx Posts: 176	You hit the nail on the head there. Its the lack of software thats causing the weak sales of hardware. I would say around 95-99, or in that area is when computers took off. Remember when the Pentiums came out and every month there was a new cpu speed almost. I had bought a compaw p100 and 3 months later they had 150s and 166s. Granted there is a very good chance my memory is off, but I do know sales were awesome. Voodoo was king. The only industry I see staying strong is GPU manufactures, and probally CD/DVD drives. People are getting into the digital age now and myself including. I love ripping movies, and am looking into a dvd burner now. 1:1 copies would be really cool. If you ask me, if the gaming market wasn't there, alot of companies would be hurting for sales more then they are now.

10-15-2002, 12:09 AM	#24
mfpmax Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rockledge,FL,US Posts: 731	Video Games have been driving the CPU and video card market for awhile now... Problem is, the lastest thing to come about is Doom 3... __________________ My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz

10-15-2002, 12:42 AM	#25
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	You'll see it with Doom3 too. Everyone's system was awesome....then Quake3 came out.

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