i'm fux0red guys, how to spot a undercapacitated pump...

g.l.amour · 10-14-2002, 12:33 PM

after finishing all casemodding, i switched on my pump... the sucker can't even prime the system anymore.

i thk this is one of those cases where myv65 is right about it sometimes being better to run 2 rads in series. when i did that i used to have no problems running 2 rads. now i switch to parallel mounted rads; there u go, flow reduced that much.

i did change from a hayden + generic rad to 2 heatercore style rads. upgraded some of my tubing to 1/2. the larger tubing seems to be part of the problem too.

anyone want to elaborate on the theories of this phenomenon?

now i'm stuck between a rock and hard place. mount another 1048 in series; or go for a 1250 alltogether.

decodeddiesel · 10-14-2002, 11:37 PM

man that stinks. I can tell you that the 1250 I am running may not even be enough for this, you may want to think about moving to something like a little giant or Iwaki, though another Eheim in series may do it, really don't know.

mfpmax · 10-15-2002, 12:11 AM

You need more flow

Since the heater cores aren't high flow radiators.

g.l.amour · 10-15-2002, 01:36 AM

i've been puzzling about the problem in my sleep; a 1250 working together with a 1048 should do the trick i presume.

i was just wondering. for priming sakes, isn't it better to run those rads in series?

wouldn't know where to get those little giants, or iwakis in europe. gonna check tho, wouldn't want to buy another eheim for nothing.

although my rig is fun to watch now; beautifull visual fx, the little bubbles dancing in the middle of the tubes, a little bit up, then down, and so on.

MadDogMe · 10-15-2002, 04:12 AM

Think of the weight in water that the pumps having to raise!!. Running two pumps inline should help...

g.l.amour · 10-15-2002, 04:40 AM

part of the problem is also the barbs on those 2 rads; they are 15mm which is about 3/4 or 5/8"; i will prolly need to reduce those to 1/2", upgrade my WB to 1/2" and get a stronger pump. goddamn what kind of hobby is this ;-)

bigben2k · 10-15-2002, 09:06 AM

I'm lost!

What do you mean, "the pump can't even prime the system?". These are not self-priming pumps.

How is changing a barb from 3/4 to 1/2 going to help? It's only going to add to the total restriction (not a lot though).

How did you get less flow from running heatercores in parallel? How do you figure that it'll all work better in series? It's only going to add more total restriction!

:shrug:

What block do you have?

MadDogMe · 10-15-2002, 09:18 AM

Well spotted!,I think you need to have more water than air in the system for it to have a chance at priming itself.
Remove the fitting that's at the highest point and fill it from there(funnel may come in handy), I take it you have a reservoir?, that should catch the air remaining and replace it with water. Squeezing the pump inlet tube open and closed helps to prime the system too if you're having trouble

g.l.amour · 10-18-2002, 04:47 PM

setup is running like magic now, full serial.

think about it;

@ bigben2k

lets say u got a source that has 1/2 , to go parallel u split it up in 2 1/2's. that way, the flow in each section will be 1/2. so air that is trapped in upper regions and has to be blown down by the pump, through the tubes to the res. now if the pump isn't generating enough flow anymore, it will not have the energy to blow the bubbles down to the res. the bubbles will continue to rise.

now for the part where u didn't understand 3/4 - 1/2

coming from WB was 1/2 going to T, 2 3/4 lines going to each rad. that is making the job even harder. if u want a fastflowing river, one doesn't widen it, one tries to narrow it.

look at it as like u were trying to paddle upstream on a very slowmoving river, and do the same on a fastflowing river; now imagine u paddling being the airbubbles.

hope it sounds a little more clear
ohh, the WB is a maze2; maybe it might be better to change in a swiftech sortof block. maze2 is said to restrict flow, upgraded the pump to get more flow (1048 to 1250) and i'm not seeing better temps (not alot more than 1°C). so now i got the high flow pump, high flow rads, and a low flow block. and for arguments sake, i didn't dismount the WB to change the pump, so that can't be the cause of the temps not dropping. i think it can only be the maze.

Blackeagle · 10-18-2002, 05:45 PM

"....the air traped in the upper regions and has to be blown DOWN by the pump, through the tubes to the res. Now the pump isn't generating enough flow to blow the bubbles down to the res. the bubbles will continue to rise."

Agreed, this is the problem, more so than the pump. Can you not relocate the res to be the high point in your system, or at least at equal levels to the rads? This would solve the trapped air problem for good.

Might also look at the Atlantis block, will give higher flow & performance than the maze two or a swifttec I think. And as you're in europe you won't have to pay the shipping toll I'm going to get hit with to have one. Atlantis has 10.5mm ID barbs from what I read.

g.l.amour · 10-18-2002, 06:02 PM

hmm; thx for the tip , will look into the atlantis...

as much as everyone wants to convince that parallel rads rock, try it out, really, the theory behind it rox, but in practice it's a little harder than u'd think.

btw, its not a problem of the res being too far down in the setup. somewhere , some tube is bound to go down, can't go up without ever going down. and thats where the air would just stay in the upper region.

let me put it like this. if u want EFFECTIVE parallel setup, the point where u split the tubing to go to each rad. from that point u need to halve the tubing diameter (try and get this plz), to get the same flowspeed as u were getting in the tubing going away from the pump. its like u r trying to power 2 misisipis from the moat behind your house. now in analogy the misisipi can provide same flow for two rivers, only if each river is half the width of the original misisipi, not the other way around. and that was the big problem. what r u gonna do, get your pump rigged with 1" tubing so u can split it up to get 2 1/2" going to each rad. g'luck finding a WB with 1" barbs, lol.

i need to chill now, its weekend

MadDogMe · 10-19-2002, 03:14 AM

When I primed my system I lifted the res' up and 'poured' it down the pump!, the pump needs a continous stream of water going into it to prime a system. did yours have a continous stream?, or were there bubbles from the system flying into the pump?(I could only do it cause I have a 2litre res!)...

Once it had been primed it would have run OK on parrallel, don't know what difference the temps would have made, but it would have run two rads parrallel if primed...

Glad it's running anyways...

PS. the OCPC Atlantis is my favorite block of the moment

, I'd have one myself if I'd £$% right now!...
OCPC...

g.l.amour · 10-19-2002, 06:51 PM

but that atlantis block, i know of that one supposedly good review it got; is there anymore good info on it? is it considered high-flow or low-flow?

g.l.amour · 10-19-2002, 07:00 PM

btw, the res design is certainly large enough, for what its worth, thats an eheim 1250 next to it, so i upgraded my pump alright. not seeing any temp difference though. think i'm gonna need a high flow block to take advantage of the current situation.

g.l.amour · 10-19-2002, 07:01 PM

think i'm gonna need to clean up some wire mess too ;-)

MadDogMe · 10-20-2002, 04:16 AM

Atlantis are high~flow, they have large inner diametre barbs as well, about 1mm wider than average. Unfortunatly there are'nt any other reveiws around, hopefuly that'll change soon though.
people will start posting their temps as well I hope, I just wish I'd seen them sooner, I brought a Maze3:1 10 weeks ago

...

tokamac · 10-21-2002, 06:48 PM

um... the Eheim 1250 is fine at pushing my parallel 3 rad rig... .... and it (the pump) sits at the bottom... I think your only problem is having the res at the lowest point in the system.

Tokamac

MadDogMe · 10-22-2002, 06:03 AM

Yeah it should run fine once charged, whether it runs better or not is another matter

, it was priming the system that was the problem...

10-14-2002, 12:33 PM	#1
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	i'm fux0red guys, how to spot a undercapacitated pump... after finishing all casemodding, i switched on my pump... the sucker can't even prime the system anymore. i thk this is one of those cases where myv65 is right about it sometimes being better to run 2 rads in series. when i did that i used to have no problems running 2 rads. now i switch to parallel mounted rads; there u go, flow reduced that much. i did change from a hayden + generic rad to 2 heatercore style rads. upgraded some of my tubing to 1/2. the larger tubing seems to be part of the problem too. anyone want to elaborate on the theories of this phenomenon? now i'm stuck between a rock and hard place. mount another 1048 in series; or go for a 1250 alltogether.

10-14-2002, 11:37 PM	#2
decodeddiesel Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: classified Posts: 534	man that stinks. I can tell you that the 1250 I am running may not even be enough for this, you may want to think about moving to something like a little giant or Iwaki, though another Eheim in series may do it, really don't know. __________________ ...i hurt... do me a favor, disconect me... they can re-work me but i'll never be top of the line again ...i'd rather be nothing...

10-15-2002, 12:11 AM	#3
mfpmax Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rockledge,FL,US Posts: 731	You need more flow Since the heater cores aren't high flow radiators. __________________ My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz

10-15-2002, 09:06 AM	#7
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I'm lost! What do you mean, "the pump can't even prime the system?". These are not self-priming pumps. How is changing a barb from 3/4 to 1/2 going to help? It's only going to add to the total restriction (not a lot though). How did you get less flow from running heatercores in parallel? How do you figure that it'll all work better in series? It's only going to add more total restriction! :shrug: What block do you have? __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

10-18-2002, 05:45 PM	#10
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	"....the air traped in the upper regions and has to be blown DOWN by the pump, through the tubes to the res. Now the pump isn't generating enough flow to blow the bubbles down to the res. the bubbles will continue to rise." Agreed, this is the problem, more so than the pump. Can you not relocate the res to be the high point in your system, or at least at equal levels to the rads? This would solve the trapped air problem for good. Might also look at the Atlantis block, will give higher flow & performance than the maze two or a swifttec I think. And as you're in europe you won't have to pay the shipping toll I'm going to get hit with to have one. Atlantis has 10.5mm ID barbs from what I read. Last edited by Blackeagle; 10-18-2002 at 05:51 PM.

10-15-2002, 01:36 AM	#4
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	i've been puzzling about the problem in my sleep; a 1250 working together with a 1048 should do the trick i presume. i was just wondering. for priming sakes, isn't it better to run those rads in series? wouldn't know where to get those little giants, or iwakis in europe. gonna check tho, wouldn't want to buy another eheim for nothing. although my rig is fun to watch now; beautifull visual fx, the little bubbles dancing in the middle of the tubes, a little bit up, then down, and so on.

10-15-2002, 04:12 AM	#5
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Think of the weight in water that the pumps having to raise!!. Running two pumps inline should help...

10-15-2002, 04:40 AM	#6
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	part of the problem is also the barbs on those 2 rads; they are 15mm which is about 3/4 or 5/8"; i will prolly need to reduce those to 1/2", upgrade my WB to 1/2" and get a stronger pump. goddamn what kind of hobby is this ;-)

10-15-2002, 09:18 AM	#8
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Well spotted!,I think you need to have more water than air in the system for it to have a chance at priming itself. Remove the fitting that's at the highest point and fill it from there(funnel may come in handy), I take it you have a reservoir?, that should catch the air remaining and replace it with water. Squeezing the pump inlet tube open and closed helps to prime the system too if you're having trouble

10-18-2002, 04:47 PM	#9
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	setup is running like magic now, full serial. think about it; @ bigben2k lets say u got a source that has 1/2 , to go parallel u split it up in 2 1/2's. that way, the flow in each section will be 1/2. so air that is trapped in upper regions and has to be blown down by the pump, through the tubes to the res. now if the pump isn't generating enough flow anymore, it will not have the energy to blow the bubbles down to the res. the bubbles will continue to rise. now for the part where u didn't understand 3/4 - 1/2 coming from WB was 1/2 going to T, 2 3/4 lines going to each rad. that is making the job even harder. if u want a fastflowing river, one doesn't widen it, one tries to narrow it. look at it as like u were trying to paddle upstream on a very slowmoving river, and do the same on a fastflowing river; now imagine u paddling being the airbubbles. hope it sounds a little more clear ohh, the WB is a maze2; maybe it might be better to change in a swiftech sortof block. maze2 is said to restrict flow, upgraded the pump to get more flow (1048 to 1250) and i'm not seeing better temps (not alot more than 1°C). so now i got the high flow pump, high flow rads, and a low flow block. and for arguments sake, i didn't dismount the WB to change the pump, so that can't be the cause of the temps not dropping. i think it can only be the maze.

10-18-2002, 06:02 PM	#11
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	hmm; thx for the tip , will look into the atlantis... as much as everyone wants to convince that parallel rads rock, try it out, really, the theory behind it rox, but in practice it's a little harder than u'd think. btw, its not a problem of the res being too far down in the setup. somewhere , some tube is bound to go down, can't go up without ever going down. and thats where the air would just stay in the upper region. let me put it like this. if u want EFFECTIVE parallel setup, the point where u split the tubing to go to each rad. from that point u need to halve the tubing diameter (try and get this plz), to get the same flowspeed as u were getting in the tubing going away from the pump. its like u r trying to power 2 misisipis from the moat behind your house. now in analogy the misisipi can provide same flow for two rivers, only if each river is half the width of the original misisipi, not the other way around. and that was the big problem. what r u gonna do, get your pump rigged with 1" tubing so u can split it up to get 2 1/2" going to each rad. g'luck finding a WB with 1" barbs, lol. i need to chill now, its weekend

10-19-2002, 03:14 AM	#12
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	When I primed my system I lifted the res' up and 'poured' it down the pump!, the pump needs a continous stream of water going into it to prime a system. did yours have a continous stream?, or were there bubbles from the system flying into the pump?(I could only do it cause I have a 2litre res!)... Once it had been primed it would have run OK on parrallel, don't know what difference the temps would have made, but it would have run two rads parrallel if primed... Glad it's running anyways... PS. the OCPC Atlantis is my favorite block of the moment , I'd have one myself if I'd £$% right now!... OCPC...

10-19-2002, 06:51 PM	#13
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	but that atlantis block, i know of that one supposedly good review it got; is there anymore good info on it? is it considered high-flow or low-flow?

10-19-2002, 07:01 PM	#15
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	think i'm gonna need to clean up some wire mess too ;-)

10-20-2002, 04:16 AM	#16
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Atlantis are high~flow, they have large inner diametre barbs as well, about 1mm wider than average. Unfortunatly there are'nt any other reveiws around, hopefuly that'll change soon though. people will start posting their temps as well I hope, I just wish I'd seen them sooner, I brought a Maze3:1 10 weeks ago ...

10-21-2002, 06:48 PM	#17
tokamac Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: G-Town NC Posts: 51	um... the Eheim 1250 is fine at pushing my parallel 3 rad rig... .... and it (the pump) sits at the bottom... I think your only problem is having the res at the lowest point in the system. Tokamac

10-22-2002, 06:03 AM	#18
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Yeah it should run fine once charged, whether it runs better or not is another matter , it was priming the system that was the problem...

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