Fan pressure not enough

ColdFlare · 03-02-2003, 11:25 PM

I have two panaflo l1as on my heatercore the one from dangerden setup in a 1040 antec case. I havent cut a blowhole in the front yet, but i have the heatercore sitting ont he bottom right under the hard drive rack. The fan pushing in does not have a shroud and the one pulling does.

When i put my hand on the outside of my case i feel very faint air moving in, but when i put my hand in the case right next to the pulling fan, i feel nothing. The air isnt going through the heatercore and my temps are high.

Are these temps normal, kx7333 sensor untouched, t-bred b 1700+ @ 2.3ghz 2.0v
53c load
45c idle
Case temp is 37c, maybe cause by the heat coming from the pump which is right next to the sensor.

The heatercore is warm to the touch.

Do I need stronger fans? or a 2nd shroud? or cut a complete 120mm blowhole in the front?

gmat · 03-03-2003, 06:57 AM

cut a complete 120mm blowhole in the front.

Pritorian · 03-03-2003, 08:31 AM

and the shroud would help too

-P-

RoboTech · 03-03-2003, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ColdFlare
I have two panaflo l1as on my heatercore ... when i put my hand in the case right next to the pulling fan, i feel nothing. The air isnt going through the heatercore and my temps are high.

Are you sure the second fan is blowing the right way??? Even it were not moving a lot of air, you should still feel something...

ColdFlare · 03-03-2003, 03:27 PM

Yea the first fan is blowing the correct way actually both are blowing the correct way, but I really feel nothing. These fans are pretty weak as is, i tested them alone on the desk and they blow ltitle to no air, i think my enermax 80mm blows more, even tho they max out around 39 cfm.

I just left my pump on while i was at school with the computer on, and i felt my heatercore when i got home, and it was warm to the touch also. Does the eheim 1250 really put out that much heat? I know i have some air in the system i have no res. Anyway to minimize the heat coming from the pump?

Also I really want to cut a 120mm in the front of my antec, you guys think a nibbler tool can cut the hard steel? The only available tools i have or can get is a nibbler and a dremel. I have no skill in operating a dremel and I'm afaird i might hurt myself with that thing.

*update maybe some antec 1040 case users can point me in the right direction on how to cut a 120mm hole in the front.

*update also if anyone can tell if my temps are correct with those voltages.

hydrogen18 · 03-03-2003, 04:01 PM

i think the nibble can do it, ure hands will just ache afterwards

ColdFlare · 03-03-2003, 04:41 PM

What do you guys think about this fan?

http://www.plycon.com/fans/mecha120.htm

its a mechatronics 120mm blowing about 120 cfms. Would this provide good performance compare to the ys tech 120mm 131cfm fan? Or should I just get the most powerful delta 120mm and put it on a pot.

Anyone using fans bigger than the 120mms?

jtroutma · 03-03-2003, 04:44 PM

I currently use an old Antec Full tower case that uses steal. I used a dremel to make my cuts for my radiator and everything else. You just need a steady hand, LOTS of cutting disks and a can of compressed air

OH and a nice cold beverage! (for afterwards when your hands and arms feel numb from all the cutting

)

Also about your temps....... those are way high in my mind. I am using the Dtek heatercore with a Sunon 120mm 108cfm fan and the radiator is cool to the touch, even with my Tbred 1700 @ 2310 @ 2.05V. My core temps are about 38-42C full load depending on the time of day. Even when I cranked my CPU voltage all the way up to 2.2V, my core temp was only 45C under load.

If you heatercore is warm to the touch, that means you do not have enough airflow through your radiator. Try getting rid of one of the fans and getting just one to work. You should feel at least SOME air moving out of the apparatus (depending on how you setup your radiator + shroud + fan). I would feel really nervous if I saw my core temps above 50C with a 2.0V core..... (heck, I am nervous when my core temp is over 40C with a 1.9V core

)

TerraMex · 03-03-2003, 04:51 PM

Erm, lots of cutting disks? I think you used too much strengh. You're supposed to let the tool do the work, not force the movement. To make my 120mm hole in front of my case i used half a cutting disk, and had plenty for another 120mm hole if i wanted to.

ColdFlare · 03-03-2003, 04:54 PM

Wow thanks guys, I think i'm going to try the dremel tool. I dont think the nibbler would cut very well against the hard steel of this antec.

Wish me luck and hope for all my fingers to be intact.

Jtroutma

Is that fan loud? the sunon 108cfm one. Are you using just 1 fan?
I might go with that sunon but use 2 instead. But the ys tech has more rpms, which should lead to be better pressure.

Puzzdre · 03-03-2003, 05:14 PM

ColdFlare, DONT forget the safety goggles when dremelling...

jaydee · 03-03-2003, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ColdFlare
which should lead to be better pressure.

Pressure is dependant on the fan design as a whole. Number of blades, angle of blades, RPM, ect... You would have to look up the PQ curve on the manufactuires website and compare. But anything over 100CFM is not only going to work well, but be loud no matter what company makes it. I got a 83CFM Panaflow and it pulls a large amount of air through my small heater core. And yet is is still way to loud.

I keep it in the other room. Sounds like a fast bathroom fan. I got a few 120mm 120cfm Deltas and those puppys are unusable. Way to loud and way over kill anyway. I like the 83CFM Panaflow 120. I hook up a pot to it and drop it to 7volts or so and it is quite enough and still cools well.

ColdFlare · 03-03-2003, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
Pressure is dependant on the fan design as a whole. Number of blades, angle of blades, RPM, ect... You would have to look up the PQ curve on the manufactuires website and compare. But anything over 100CFM is not only going to work well, but be loud no matter what company makes it. I got a 83CFM Panaflow and it pulls a large amount of air through my small heater core. And yet is is still way to loud. I keep it in the other room. Sounds like a fast bathroom fan. I got a few 120mm 120cfm Deltas and those puppys are unusable. Way to loud and way over kill anyway. I like the 83CFM Panaflow 120. I hook up a pot to it and drop it to 7volts or so and it is quite enough and still cools well.

So are you saying that anything over 100 cfm is useless? or overkill? I just want some air to be going through the heatercore. It seems like the panaflo l1a blows air that just bounces off the heatercore, leaving the 2nd sucking panaflo with no air.

Is a mechatronics 120mm 121cfm fan overkill or useless? I dont want to buy something that wouldnt work, but I'm willing to buy a powerful fan at a reasonable price, (that mechatronics is only 8 bucks). If not I can always just put a pot on it and control the voltage.

*edit ignore the above question, i just reread your post and I get it now

That mechatronics has 5 blades, its a 38mm in height. The ys tech fan is also 5 blades and 38mm in height but only 10 more cfm and 10 more dollars! way not worth it.

I would like to get some more panaflos but they seem overpiced, not that they arent good fans, its just overkill in quality i guess, and plus its just a fan.

jaydee · 03-03-2003, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ColdFlare

I would like to get some more panaflos but they seem overpiced, not that they arent good fans, its just overkill in quality i guess, and plus its just a fan.

I only paid $6 with grill for my Panaflows. Never buy your stuff from an actual water cooling place if you want a fair price. I get my fans here: http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bi...220&type=store

jtroutma · 03-04-2003, 01:34 PM

"Is that fan loud? the sunon 108cfm one. Are you using just 1 fan?
I might go with that sunon but use 2 instead. But the ys tech has more rpms, which should lead to be better pressure."

The Sunon 108cfm fan that I am using is rated @ 42dbls however I sanded the blades with 600grit then 1500grit and I beleive that it sounds more like 39-40dbls now. It is not THAT loud but it is noticeable when I walk into the room. It is NOT like those delta screamers that you can hear 2 rooms down the hall.

For me, I can barely hear my (4) 7200rpm SCSI drives over the fan so in my book, it is quiet enough (except that it is starting to make a "whinning noise"; probably because it is almost 2 years old)

Yes I am using only the Sunon on my heatercore with a shroud and I can feel the air comming out the back of the heatercore from about 6' away.

TerraMex: Well, it was a rather large hole and I also cut several other LARGE sections out of my case at the same time. I probably went through 5 disks total. Also I dont think I had the motor on full power either

opps!)

One Last Thing: WEAR EYE PROTECTION!!!!!!

Mark Larson · 03-04-2003, 02:35 PM

You're using a 1250? Maybe try restricting the pressure a little first? The water may be going too fast through the core.

ColdFlare · 03-04-2003, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Larson
You're using a 1250? Maybe try restricting the pressure a little first? The water may be going too fast through the core.

Hmm, I thought you would want the fastest flow of water, so that the water goes to the core more often?

Mark Larson · 03-04-2003, 11:10 PM

You have to find the sweet spot - the waterblock reduces CPU temps till a point, and the heatercore reduces water temps to a point.

The longer the water stays in the heatercore the cooler it can get (pay attention to diminishing returns), and the faster the water flows through the block the cooler the CPU can get.

Skulemate · 03-05-2003, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Larson
The longer the water stays in the heatercore the cooler it can get (pay attention to diminishing returns), and the faster the water flows through the block the cooler the CPU can get.

Methinks you need to do some more reading about some of the myths surrounding watercooling... because that's what that is. While there is a diminishing return in the cooling potential of a system at high flow rates, this is primarilly due to the "beefiness" of the pump required to produce these flow rates in the first place, and not because the water likes to hang out in the radiator to cool off. The radiator is a heat exchanger, just as the waterblock is, and what's good for the goose......

RoboTech · 03-05-2003, 07:28 AM

I agree with Skulemate...

Actually there is a shread of truth to having "the water stay in the radiator longer" but it can't be accomplished by reducing flow rate. A big misconception is that by slowing the water down - it gives it more time to dissipate heat in the radiator (and some even believe to pick up heat in a waterblock). This just isn't so as illustrated by one of the basic laws of thermo that states heat transfer is directly proportional to mass flow rate. So increasing system flow will increase heat transfer in both the rad and waterblock. Obviously there are a LOT of other things going on in the system that contribute to overall efficiency. Like converting high flow to high velocity in the waterblock - usually a good thing...

Back to the shread of truth comment - IF you increase the size of the radiator (or put two radiators in parallel) then you can maintain a relatively high overall system flow but decrease the velocity of water thru the rads. So really it is the larger surface area, lower velocity (less flow resistance) and not "more time spent" that results in better heat transfer.

Just my $.02 worth...

redleader · 03-05-2003, 03:17 PM

Hey Mark,

More flow will NEVER hurt cooling. Theres no such thing as too much flow.

ColdFlare · 03-05-2003, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RoboTech
I agree with Skulemate...

Actually there is a shread of truth to having "the water stay in the radiator longer" but it can't be accomplished by reducing flow rate. A big misconception is that by slowing the water down - it gives it more time to dissipate heat in the radiator (and some even believe to pick up heat in a waterblock). This just isn't so as illustrated by one of the basic laws of thermo that states heat transfer is directly proportional to mass flow rate. So increasing system flow will increase heat transfer in both the rad and waterblock. Obviously there are a LOT of other things going on in the system that contribute to overall efficiency. Like converting high flow to high velocity in the waterblock - usually a good thing...

Back to the shread of truth comment - IF you increase the size of the radiator (or put two radiators in parallel) then you can maintain a relatively high overall system flow but decrease the velocity of water thru the rads. So really it is the larger surface area, lower velocity (less flow resistance) and not "more time spent" that results in better heat transfer.

Just my $.02 worth...

Yea thats what I thought, the faster the water moves, the more times it goes around the circuit, thus the more times it visits the heatercore thus having more time to cool off?

bigben2k · 03-05-2003, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ColdFlare
Yea thats what I thought, the faster the water moves, the more times it goes around the circuit, thus the more times it visits the heatercore thus having more time to cool off?

Almost...

The faster it moves, the more turbulent the water is, and therefore the better it will pickup and shed heat from/to the waterblock/heatercore.

Think of it as a "lesser resistance to heat transfer".

Axle · 03-05-2003, 05:45 PM

mechatronics are very nice, very quiet fans. Espically sleved ones. A review of the 80mm ones yeilded them slightly quieter than panaflos, and without the whine.

jaydee · 03-05-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Axle
mechatronics are very nice, very quiet fans. Espically sleved ones. A review of the 80mm ones yeilded them slightly quieter than panaflos, and without the whine.

Mechtronics? Here is thier 120mm 82cfm one for $6.75 each. http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bi...114&type=store

If I had money to burn on fans I would pick up a few and compare them to the Panaflow 120mm 83cfm ones i picked up there before.

03-02-2003, 11:25 PM	#1
ColdFlare Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 42	Fan pressure not enough I have two panaflo l1as on my heatercore the one from dangerden setup in a 1040 antec case. I havent cut a blowhole in the front yet, but i have the heatercore sitting ont he bottom right under the hard drive rack. The fan pushing in does not have a shroud and the one pulling does. When i put my hand on the outside of my case i feel very faint air moving in, but when i put my hand in the case right next to the pulling fan, i feel nothing. The air isnt going through the heatercore and my temps are high. Are these temps normal, kx7333 sensor untouched, t-bred b 1700+ @ 2.3ghz 2.0v 53c load 45c idle Case temp is 37c, maybe cause by the heat coming from the pump which is right next to the sensor. The heatercore is warm to the touch. Do I need stronger fans? or a 2nd shroud? or cut a complete 120mm blowhole in the front?

03-03-2003, 08:31 AM	#3
Pritorian Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 201	and the shroud would help too -P- __________________ Boo!

03-03-2003, 04:44 PM	#8
jtroutma Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: SLO, CA Posts: 837	I currently use an old Antec Full tower case that uses steal. I used a dremel to make my cuts for my radiator and everything else. You just need a steady hand, LOTS of cutting disks and a can of compressed air OH and a nice cold beverage! (for afterwards when your hands and arms feel numb from all the cutting ) Also about your temps....... those are way high in my mind. I am using the Dtek heatercore with a Sunon 120mm 108cfm fan and the radiator is cool to the touch, even with my Tbred 1700 @ 2310 @ 2.05V. My core temps are about 38-42C full load depending on the time of day. Even when I cranked my CPU voltage all the way up to 2.2V, my core temp was only 45C under load. If you heatercore is warm to the touch, that means you do not have enough airflow through your radiator. Try getting rid of one of the fans and getting just one to work. You should feel at least SOME air moving out of the apparatus (depending on how you setup your radiator + shroud + fan). I would feel really nervous if I saw my core temps above 50C with a 2.0V core..... (heck, I am nervous when my core temp is over 40C with a 1.9V core ) __________________ Athlon64 X2 4200+ @ 2.5Ghz (250FSB x 10) OCZ VX 1GB 4000 @ 250FSB (6-2-2-2 timmings) DFI LANParty nForce4 Ultra-D SCSI Raid 5 x (3) Cheetah 15K HDDs LSI Express 500 (128MB cache) OCZ PowerStream 520W PSU ATI X850XT PE (Stock) DTEK WhiteWater + DTEK Custom Radiator Eheim 1250

03-03-2003, 04:51 PM	#9
TerraMex Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portugal, Europe Posts: 870	Erm, lots of cutting disks? I think you used too much strengh. You're supposed to let the tool do the work, not force the movement. To make my 120mm hole in front of my case i used half a cutting disk, and had plenty for another 120mm hole if i wanted to. __________________ "we need more cowbell."

03-03-2003, 05:14 PM	#11
Puzzdre Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Croatia Posts: 969	ColdFlare, DONT forget the safety goggles when dremelling... __________________ 'Out of cheese error... ...please reboot the universe (press the GBL to continue)'

03-03-2003, 06:57 AM	#2
gmat Thermophile Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,221	cut a complete 120mm blowhole in the front.

03-03-2003, 03:27 PM	#5
ColdFlare Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 42	Yea the first fan is blowing the correct way actually both are blowing the correct way, but I really feel nothing. These fans are pretty weak as is, i tested them alone on the desk and they blow ltitle to no air, i think my enermax 80mm blows more, even tho they max out around 39 cfm. I just left my pump on while i was at school with the computer on, and i felt my heatercore when i got home, and it was warm to the touch also. Does the eheim 1250 really put out that much heat? I know i have some air in the system i have no res. Anyway to minimize the heat coming from the pump? Also I really want to cut a 120mm in the front of my antec, you guys think a nibbler tool can cut the hard steel? The only available tools i have or can get is a nibbler and a dremel. I have no skill in operating a dremel and I'm afaird i might hurt myself with that thing. update maybe some antec 1040 case users can point me in the right direction on how to cut a 120mm hole in the front. update also if anyone can tell if my temps are correct with those voltages.

03-03-2003, 04:01 PM	#6
hydrogen18 Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 248	i think the nibble can do it, ure hands will just ache afterwards

03-03-2003, 04:41 PM	#7
ColdFlare Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 42	What do you guys think about this fan? http://www.plycon.com/fans/mecha120.htm its a mechatronics 120mm blowing about 120 cfms. Would this provide good performance compare to the ys tech 120mm 131cfm fan? Or should I just get the most powerful delta 120mm and put it on a pot. Anyone using fans bigger than the 120mms?

03-03-2003, 04:54 PM	#10
ColdFlare Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 42	Wow thanks guys, I think i'm going to try the dremel tool. I dont think the nibbler would cut very well against the hard steel of this antec. Wish me luck and hope for all my fingers to be intact. Jtroutma Is that fan loud? the sunon 108cfm one. Are you using just 1 fan? I might go with that sunon but use 2 instead. But the ys tech has more rpms, which should lead to be better pressure.

03-04-2003, 01:34 PM	#15
jtroutma Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: SLO, CA Posts: 837	"Is that fan loud? the sunon 108cfm one. Are you using just 1 fan? I might go with that sunon but use 2 instead. But the ys tech has more rpms, which should lead to be better pressure." The Sunon 108cfm fan that I am using is rated @ 42dbls however I sanded the blades with 600grit then 1500grit and I beleive that it sounds more like 39-40dbls now. It is not THAT loud but it is noticeable when I walk into the room. It is NOT like those delta screamers that you can hear 2 rooms down the hall. For me, I can barely hear my (4) 7200rpm SCSI drives over the fan so in my book, it is quiet enough (except that it is starting to make a "whinning noise"; probably because it is almost 2 years old) Yes I am using only the Sunon on my heatercore with a shroud and I can feel the air comming out the back of the heatercore from about 6' away. TerraMex: Well, it was a rather large hole and I also cut several other LARGE sections out of my case at the same time. I probably went through 5 disks total. Also I dont think I had the motor on full power either opps!) One Last Thing: WEAR EYE PROTECTION!!!!!! __________________ Athlon64 X2 4200+ @ 2.5Ghz (250FSB x 10) OCZ VX 1GB 4000 @ 250FSB (6-2-2-2 timmings) DFI LANParty nForce4 Ultra-D SCSI Raid 5 x (3) Cheetah 15K HDDs LSI Express 500 (128MB cache) OCZ PowerStream 520W PSU ATI X850XT PE (Stock) DTEK WhiteWater + DTEK Custom Radiator Eheim 1250

03-04-2003, 02:35 PM	#16
Mark Larson Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: MN Posts: 67	You're using a 1250? Maybe try restricting the pressure a little first? The water may be going too fast through the core. __________________ AMD Fanboy.

03-04-2003, 11:10 PM	#18
Mark Larson Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: MN Posts: 67	You have to find the sweet spot - the waterblock reduces CPU temps till a point, and the heatercore reduces water temps to a point. The longer the water stays in the heatercore the cooler it can get (pay attention to diminishing returns), and the faster the water flows through the block the cooler the CPU can get. __________________ AMD Fanboy.

03-05-2003, 07:28 AM	#20
RoboTech Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 229	I agree with Skulemate... Actually there is a shread of truth to having "the water stay in the radiator longer" but it can't be accomplished by reducing flow rate. A big misconception is that by slowing the water down - it gives it more time to dissipate heat in the radiator (and some even believe to pick up heat in a waterblock). This just isn't so as illustrated by one of the basic laws of thermo that states heat transfer is directly proportional to mass flow rate. So increasing system flow will increase heat transfer in both the rad and waterblock. Obviously there are a LOT of other things going on in the system that contribute to overall efficiency. Like converting high flow to high velocity in the waterblock - usually a good thing... Back to the shread of truth comment - IF you increase the size of the radiator (or put two radiators in parallel) then you can maintain a relatively high overall system flow but decrease the velocity of water thru the rads. So really it is the larger surface area, lower velocity (less flow resistance) and not "more time spent" that results in better heat transfer. Just my $.02 worth...

03-05-2003, 03:17 PM	#21
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	Hey Mark, More flow will NEVER hurt cooling. Theres no such thing as too much flow.

03-05-2003, 05:45 PM	#24
Axle Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Wind Gap, PA Posts: 112	mechatronics are very nice, very quiet fans. Espically sleved ones. A review of the 80mm ones yeilded them slightly quieter than panaflos, and without the whine. __________________ "Once we've got those bugs flattened out, we'll be running on flat bugs"

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