Overclocking problem when starting up

Talik · 04-12-2003, 02:32 PM

So, this might not be completely on topic, but it has to do with overclocking, which has to do with water cooling. Feel free to flame me if this is totally uncouth, but I'm completely baffled, and you guys seem to be one of the better educated forums I've visited.

I overclocked my p4 2.0 to 2.7 and upped the voltage from 1.575 to 1.6(I'm still working on my water cooler so I still have the stock hsf on - 40c with no load, 55c under full load). It works fine. completely and utterly fine. I have fully benchmarked it, played intense games, worked with insane photoshop resolution, and it doesn't crash or have any problems that I can detect. the problem comes if I turn it off for a little while. When I turn it back on, it gets through my drive detection and hangs (doesn't get to the raid bios yes, which comes before windows startup). It'll do this a couple of time with me restarting it, then it will unoverclock itself and boot up fine only after another hard shut down. Once it un overclocks itself, I can reoverclock it,(that same boot) and it'll still work fine. This has happened several times, and I'm confused why it would run fine in windows under a full load, but not get through the bios startup. Do you think that this is a problem with my bios?

cybrsamurai · 04-12-2003, 02:43 PM

It sounds like you have an ASUS motherboard with integrated RAID. It would be helpfull to know the make of your board, and your current system configuration.

Elcs · 04-12-2003, 03:13 PM

Sounds strange. The voltage isnt high enough for SNDS and the symptoms arent exactly the same. You are attaining the same overclock as before you clear the CMOS?

Very strange.

Since87 · 04-12-2003, 06:03 PM

Is the pump continuing to run when you shut off the PC?

I'm wondering if your water might be getting to a higher temperature when the PC is shut off, and until the rad fan runs awhile the higher water temperature prevents booting up at your full overclock.

cybrsamurai · 04-12-2003, 06:18 PM

87 I think that he is still running stock HSF. (No water)

Since87 · 04-12-2003, 06:55 PM

ahh. Been hanging around WC forums so much, I assume everyone is doing it.

Phuzun · 04-12-2003, 11:58 PM

Could be that the CPU is gettin rid of the heat, but that heat stays when he shuts down. The Heat being there upon start up may cause stability problems.

Talik · 04-13-2003, 01:30 AM

Actually, I have an MSI motherboard model MS-6547 with a p4 2.0 and 2 x 512 meg PC 2700 dimms. The raid card is a 3ware Escalade 6800 with 5 120 Mb drives. I'm booting off a WDSE120 on primary master with a generic cd drive on secondary slave. I'm also running a geforce 4 ti 4200. I've got a scsi card with one dvd drive, a net card, a modem(sad, eh?), an sblive, and I think that's about it.

I should probably know this, but what's SNDS?

Yes, after the bios resets, and I reoverclock, I put it up to the same exact numbers, and it works.

Interesting theory, Phuzum, but this has happened when my computer has been off for a while too, long enough, at least for the heat to have dissipated.

I've got 6 hard drives, 2 cd drives, 4 120mm fans, and 17 80mm fans on a 470 watt power supply that has 3 fans built in. Do you think that I might have too much for my psu? It's not a perfect theory, but it's all I can think of.

A little off topic, but I just rearranged my power supply to make room in my case for a 4"x4" pump, and a 9"x7"x2" radiator with air tunnel in addition to all of the things already mentioned. I think I'm finally running out of room.

Phuzun · 04-13-2003, 03:16 AM

Yeah man that looks like a heavy load on the psu. Maybe you should get a second one hooked in there.

cybrsamurai · 04-13-2003, 01:42 PM

CRIPES! can you check the voltage in the bios and see what kind of flux you are dealing with. The only prob is the drain probably hits when its trying to power up the five drives. (what kind of raid do you have running with 5 drives? 3 would be my guess but im still curious) Ok if you are booting off a single primary master then try removing the raid for a bit and see if it clears up the problem. If it does then chances are its the volatage issue ,or at least its been narrowed down to a problem with the raid controller overclocked assuming that you increased your FSB. If it still does the same thing then Im thinking a MB issue.

Alternativley you could calculate the amp draw from all the components in your system and see if you are in spec. (too much research for me).

Afterthought. If you increased the FSB the SCSI card could be an issue. They are notorious for having low tolerance with OC's.

Talik · 04-14-2003, 02:07 AM

Thanks, cybr, I'll try that. I don't think that it'll be a power drain problem because of the predictable irregularity of the problem, but it could be the raid card causing the issue. If that is the case, Is my only solution to split my computer in two, and set up a file server and a workstation? I hope not because I just made some major modifications to my case to add water cooling which would go in the smaller workstation.

I'm running raid 5, by the way. (If you know all about raid 5 and 3, then skip the next section)Raid 5 is exactly the same as raid 3 except the parity information is spread out on all of the drives. Because every write command has to write to the parity drive in Raid 3, this makes this type of raid only as fast as a single drive. Raid 5 is considerably faster as it can spread this parity information out. I've never seen a time when raid 3 should be used unless someone has a cheap card that can't handle raid 5(as with many built-in motherboard raid capabilities)

SparkedFire · 04-14-2003, 08:19 AM

It could be your PSU. You seem to have a large load on it. On start-up your computer must run every drive, fan, or device on it which will put a tremendous load on it very abruptly, untill it compensates for the load. Try unplugging your fans and see if the problim persists. If so try to unplug some drives as well. I think you get the idea. You seem to have a lot of fans.

Althoe I must tell you what I think the problim might be. I think this would not be the case, because the problim should occure all the time. But it is worth the try. By the way, how long is a while? and how short of a time period is the computer off?

satanicoo · 04-14-2003, 09:04 AM

this is off-topic, but could you post a pic or 2 of your sistem?

wanna see the 17 80mm + 4 120mm fans working all-together

Talik · 04-14-2003, 05:51 PM

err... whoops.

My bad, I meant to say 4 80mm and 17 40mm (3 40mm per 5.25 drive bay). Not quite as impressive this way. Sorry to get your hopes up.
I still took the pictures and will upload them as soon as I can find that cable that connects my comp to the camera(I think I left it at work).
It'll be a little more impressive once I get my heater core installed and the 10 extra 80 mm fans to cool that.

Sparked: I've had the computer off anywhere between the second it takes to reboot to a few hours.

After first turning off all my fans and almost burning up my computer (that many hard drives generates a lot of heat when not cooled) I got it to work reliably by unplugging my scsi card as suggested by cybrsamurai. Crazy, had no one suggested that, I never would have guessed. Thanks all who offered help.
So, this leaves me with no scsi capabilities, does anyone know if I will have this problem with all scsi cards due to a motherboard weirdness? Or just this one?

airspirit · 04-14-2003, 05:58 PM

This could be your battery. Replace it (costs $3) and see if that helps. This happens when your battery gets too low.

cybrsamurai · 04-14-2003, 07:24 PM

The problem as I have experienced it is all SCSI with an overclocked FSB will have issues. I have heard rumor that Adaptec tolerances are slightly better. But I really dont know for sure. Sorry

airspirit · 04-15-2003, 09:53 AM

This is where having a NForce2 board is nice. 33 Mhz PCI all the time ... yummy.

jtroutma · 04-15-2003, 02:09 PM

Adaptec's do seem to tolerate higher PCI clocks. I have an Adaptect 2940U2W and I use to run it at a PCI clock of 41 for months on end.

Talik: I have a similar problem with my system but slightly different. With my system, when I unplug it and leave it off for a while (AKA Lan party transport) then try and power it back on again, the system will either not post or will revert to a "safe" boot (1100Mhz in my case). Granted that I have a highly OC system so I think the problem here is that when I first power on my system, the MB does not have enough current available in order to get my chip to post correctly. IF I hold the "Insert" key down while I am trying to POST, my system retains my BIOS settings but boots into a "safe" speed. After that, I just hit the reset button and the machine will POST at full speed.

Try it with your system, with the SCSI card in and with it out. See if it makes a difference.

Worth a try. BTW what PSU are you using to power that array of yours?

04-12-2003, 02:32 PM	#1
Talik Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Portland Or Posts: 95	Overclocking problem when starting up So, this might not be completely on topic, but it has to do with overclocking, which has to do with water cooling. Feel free to flame me if this is totally uncouth, but I'm completely baffled, and you guys seem to be one of the better educated forums I've visited. I overclocked my p4 2.0 to 2.7 and upped the voltage from 1.575 to 1.6(I'm still working on my water cooler so I still have the stock hsf on - 40c with no load, 55c under full load). It works fine. completely and utterly fine. I have fully benchmarked it, played intense games, worked with insane photoshop resolution, and it doesn't crash or have any problems that I can detect. the problem comes if I turn it off for a little while. When I turn it back on, it gets through my drive detection and hangs (doesn't get to the raid bios yes, which comes before windows startup). It'll do this a couple of time with me restarting it, then it will unoverclock itself and boot up fine only after another hard shut down. Once it un overclocks itself, I can reoverclock it,(that same boot) and it'll still work fine. This has happened several times, and I'm confused why it would run fine in windows under a full load, but not get through the bios startup. Do you think that this is a problem with my bios? __________________ Reality is nothing more than the delusions of the masses.

04-12-2003, 02:43 PM	#2
cybrsamurai Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ashland Posts: 296	It sounds like you have an ASUS motherboard with integrated RAID. It would be helpfull to know the make of your board, and your current system configuration. __________________ Air cooled my ass.

04-12-2003, 06:18 PM	#5
cybrsamurai Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ashland Posts: 296	87 I think that he is still running stock HSF. (No water) __________________ Air cooled my ass.

04-12-2003, 11:58 PM	#7
Phuzun Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Fargo, ND USA Posts: 47	Could be that the CPU is gettin rid of the heat, but that heat stays when he shuts down. The Heat being there upon start up may cause stability problems. __________________ 1.2ghz Tbird KT7a-Raid w/ Crystal Orb 384MB 133mhz 40x2 Maxtor HD in Raid 0 27gb IBM ata100 Ati 8500 / crystal orb, homemade ramsinks Sblive Platinum Maze 3-1 Black Ice Radiator NIC card 7 volts runnin to all fans /cept the orbs

04-13-2003, 01:30 AM	#8
Talik Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Portland Or Posts: 95	Actually, I have an MSI motherboard model MS-6547 with a p4 2.0 and 2 x 512 meg PC 2700 dimms. The raid card is a 3ware Escalade 6800 with 5 120 Mb drives. I'm booting off a WDSE120 on primary master with a generic cd drive on secondary slave. I'm also running a geforce 4 ti 4200. I've got a scsi card with one dvd drive, a net card, a modem(sad, eh?), an sblive, and I think that's about it. I should probably know this, but what's SNDS? Yes, after the bios resets, and I reoverclock, I put it up to the same exact numbers, and it works. Interesting theory, Phuzum, but this has happened when my computer has been off for a while too, long enough, at least for the heat to have dissipated. I've got 6 hard drives, 2 cd drives, 4 120mm fans, and 17 80mm fans on a 470 watt power supply that has 3 fans built in. Do you think that I might have too much for my psu? It's not a perfect theory, but it's all I can think of. A little off topic, but I just rearranged my power supply to make room in my case for a 4"x4" pump, and a 9"x7"x2" radiator with air tunnel in addition to all of the things already mentioned. I think I'm finally running out of room. __________________ Reality is nothing more than the delusions of the masses. Last edited by Talik; 04-13-2003 at 02:01 AM.

04-12-2003, 03:13 PM	#3
Elcs Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: England Posts: 22	Sounds strange. The voltage isnt high enough for SNDS and the symptoms arent exactly the same. You are attaining the same overclock as before you clear the CMOS? Very strange.

04-12-2003, 06:03 PM	#4
Since87 Pro/Guru - Uber Mod Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 834	Is the pump continuing to run when you shut off the PC? I'm wondering if your water might be getting to a higher temperature when the PC is shut off, and until the rad fan runs awhile the higher water temperature prevents booting up at your full overclock.

04-12-2003, 06:55 PM	#6
Since87 Pro/Guru - Uber Mod Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 834	ahh. Been hanging around WC forums so much, I assume everyone is doing it.

04-13-2003, 03:16 AM	#9
Phuzun Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Fargo, ND USA Posts: 47	Yeah man that looks like a heavy load on the psu. Maybe you should get a second one hooked in there. __________________ 1.2ghz Tbird KT7a-Raid w/ Crystal Orb 384MB 133mhz 40x2 Maxtor HD in Raid 0 27gb IBM ata100 Ati 8500 / crystal orb, homemade ramsinks Sblive Platinum Maze 3-1 Black Ice Radiator NIC card 7 volts runnin to all fans /cept the orbs

04-13-2003, 01:42 PM	#10
cybrsamurai Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ashland Posts: 296	CRIPES! can you check the voltage in the bios and see what kind of flux you are dealing with. The only prob is the drain probably hits when its trying to power up the five drives. (what kind of raid do you have running with 5 drives? 3 would be my guess but im still curious) Ok if you are booting off a single primary master then try removing the raid for a bit and see if it clears up the problem. If it does then chances are its the volatage issue ,or at least its been narrowed down to a problem with the raid controller overclocked assuming that you increased your FSB. If it still does the same thing then Im thinking a MB issue. Alternativley you could calculate the amp draw from all the components in your system and see if you are in spec. (too much research for me). Afterthought. If you increased the FSB the SCSI card could be an issue. They are notorious for having low tolerance with OC's. __________________ Air cooled my ass. Last edited by cybrsamurai; 04-13-2003 at 01:49 PM.

04-14-2003, 02:07 AM	#11
Talik Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Portland Or Posts: 95	Thanks, cybr, I'll try that. I don't think that it'll be a power drain problem because of the predictable irregularity of the problem, but it could be the raid card causing the issue. If that is the case, Is my only solution to split my computer in two, and set up a file server and a workstation? I hope not because I just made some major modifications to my case to add water cooling which would go in the smaller workstation. I'm running raid 5, by the way. (If you know all about raid 5 and 3, then skip the next section)Raid 5 is exactly the same as raid 3 except the parity information is spread out on all of the drives. Because every write command has to write to the parity drive in Raid 3, this makes this type of raid only as fast as a single drive. Raid 5 is considerably faster as it can spread this parity information out. I've never seen a time when raid 3 should be used unless someone has a cheap card that can't handle raid 5(as with many built-in motherboard raid capabilities) __________________ Reality is nothing more than the delusions of the masses.

04-14-2003, 08:19 AM	#12
SparkedFire Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The Matrix Posts: 114	It could be your PSU. You seem to have a large load on it. On start-up your computer must run every drive, fan, or device on it which will put a tremendous load on it very abruptly, untill it compensates for the load. Try unplugging your fans and see if the problim persists. If so try to unplug some drives as well. I think you get the idea. You seem to have a lot of fans. Althoe I must tell you what I think the problim might be. I think this would not be the case, because the problim should occure all the time. But it is worth the try. By the way, how long is a while? and how short of a time period is the computer off? __________________ If you smell something odd coming from your puter, panic and run crazy. Shut her down and grab a towel. As to watercooling going mainstream: We are truely dedicated to it, we know everything, and we have perfected it.

04-14-2003, 09:04 AM	#13
satanicoo Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: portugal Posts: 635	this is off-topic, but could you post a pic or 2 of your sistem? wanna see the 17 80mm + 4 120mm fans working all-together

04-14-2003, 05:51 PM	#14
Talik Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Portland Or Posts: 95	err... whoops. My bad, I meant to say 4 80mm and 17 40mm (3 40mm per 5.25 drive bay). Not quite as impressive this way. Sorry to get your hopes up. I still took the pictures and will upload them as soon as I can find that cable that connects my comp to the camera(I think I left it at work). It'll be a little more impressive once I get my heater core installed and the 10 extra 80 mm fans to cool that. Sparked: I've had the computer off anywhere between the second it takes to reboot to a few hours. After first turning off all my fans and almost burning up my computer (that many hard drives generates a lot of heat when not cooled) I got it to work reliably by unplugging my scsi card as suggested by cybrsamurai. Crazy, had no one suggested that, I never would have guessed. Thanks all who offered help. So, this leaves me with no scsi capabilities, does anyone know if I will have this problem with all scsi cards due to a motherboard weirdness? Or just this one? __________________ Reality is nothing more than the delusions of the masses.

04-14-2003, 05:58 PM	#15
airspirit Been /.'d... have you? Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,986	This could be your battery. Replace it (costs $3) and see if that helps. This happens when your battery gets too low. __________________ #!/bin/sh {who;} {last;} {pause;} {grep;} {touch;} {unzip;} mount /dev/girl -t {wet;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} echo yes yes yes {yes;} umount {/dev/girl;zip;} rm -rf {wet.spot;} {sleep;} finger: permission denied

04-14-2003, 07:24 PM	#16
cybrsamurai Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ashland Posts: 296	The problem as I have experienced it is all SCSI with an overclocked FSB will have issues. I have heard rumor that Adaptec tolerances are slightly better. But I really dont know for sure. Sorry __________________ Air cooled my ass.

04-15-2003, 09:53 AM	#17
airspirit Been /.'d... have you? Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,986	This is where having a NForce2 board is nice. 33 Mhz PCI all the time ... yummy. __________________ #!/bin/sh {who;} {last;} {pause;} {grep;} {touch;} {unzip;} mount /dev/girl -t {wet;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} echo yes yes yes {yes;} umount {/dev/girl;zip;} rm -rf {wet.spot;} {sleep;} finger: permission denied

04-15-2003, 02:09 PM	#18
jtroutma Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: SLO, CA Posts: 837	Adaptec's do seem to tolerate higher PCI clocks. I have an Adaptect 2940U2W and I use to run it at a PCI clock of 41 for months on end. Talik: I have a similar problem with my system but slightly different. With my system, when I unplug it and leave it off for a while (AKA Lan party transport) then try and power it back on again, the system will either not post or will revert to a "safe" boot (1100Mhz in my case). Granted that I have a highly OC system so I think the problem here is that when I first power on my system, the MB does not have enough current available in order to get my chip to post correctly. IF I hold the "Insert" key down while I am trying to POST, my system retains my BIOS settings but boots into a "safe" speed. After that, I just hit the reset button and the machine will POST at full speed. Try it with your system, with the SCSI card in and with it out. See if it makes a difference. Worth a try. BTW what PSU are you using to power that array of yours? __________________ Athlon64 X2 4200+ @ 2.5Ghz (250FSB x 10) OCZ VX 1GB 4000 @ 250FSB (6-2-2-2 timmings) DFI LANParty nForce4 Ultra-D SCSI Raid 5 x (3) Cheetah 15K HDDs LSI Express 500 (128MB cache) OCZ PowerStream 520W PSU ATI X850XT PE (Stock) DTEK WhiteWater + DTEK Custom Radiator Eheim 1250

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