Push+Pull upgraded from Pull Only

BrianW · 08-29-2003, 05:57 AM

Hello,

Well Today I realized that I have space between my front bezel on the case in my sig (Inwin Q500) and the front of my Dtek radiator, for a 120mmX25mm fan. I already had the hole cut in the bezel. I also already had an Atomic Steel Fan Guard on the front bezel in front of the radiator. I also happen to have 6 - 120 MM Evercool Aluminum frame fans. So I tried to use the screws for the fan guard to go through the bezel and into the Evercool fan. Only thing is the chrome fan screws that I have always used were not long enough to go through the fan guard, the bezel and into the fan. The fan is wierd in that the part that accepts the screw is recessed into the fan a good 2-3 mm. I know I could of ordered longer screws, however the impatience in me got the upper hand. I grabbed the JB weld and used the screws as a guide to cold weld the fan to the front bezel. Worked like a charm except a lil jbweld leaked from the joints and is slightly visible. Oh well.... Any one know how to clean that stuff? Acetone?

I hooked up the fan to my Rheobus. So my Heatercore now has two fans. Panaflo H1A 120 pulling and the Evercool 120mm pushing. There is a shroud on the Panaflo, but none on the Evercool. Although the front bezel does act like one.

Performance @ 12v on both rad fans
System: In sig. CPU temps taken with on die thermistor via mbm.

Before:

Ambient: 78-80F <> 26-27C
Coolant: Unknown...
Idle CPU: 104-106F <> 40-41C
Full Load CPU: 109-111F <> 43-44C
Motherboard always : 84-88F <> 29-31C

After

Ambient: 78F <> 26C
Coolant: Unknown...
Idle CPU: 97F <> 36C
Full Load CPU: 102F <> 39C
Motherboard always : 82F <> 28C

Looking like about 4C temp drop. Not bad at all. And at 7 volts there is like a +3-4C CPU scale to all temps except for motherboard which will raise 1-2C. Goes to show the power of Push Pull setups. I could prolly drop another degree if I had another Panaflo 120mmX38MM fan in place of the evercool.

BrianW

starbuck3733t · 08-29-2003, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Before:

Ambient: 78-80F <> 26-27C
Coolant: Unknown...
Idle CPU: 104-106F <> 40-41C
Full Load CPU: 109-111F <> 43-44C
Motherboard always : 84-88F <> 29-31C

After

Ambient: 78F <> 26C
Coolant: Unknown...
Idle CPU: 97F <> 36C
Full Load CPU: 109-111F <> 39C
Motherboard always : 82F <> 28C

Am I missing something?

BrianW · 08-29-2003, 08:51 PM

Yeah i copied and pasted, and forgot to edit... sorry... The C measurement was different, but forgot to change the F measurement.

BrianW

I edited it....

pakman · 08-29-2003, 11:08 PM

interesting. correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the evercool substantially lower rpm/cfm than the panaflo H1A's? Which brings me to the next question. in a push/ pull combination is there any benefits to running fans at different speeds or should we stick to same speeds/cfm's for both fans? brian, in your case, the evercool is not mounted directly on the core (correct me if I'm wrong) so I presume any pressure imbalance is solved...

BrianW · 08-30-2003, 01:17 AM

The fan is about 5-7mm from the core, mounted to the front of the case bezel. The Evercool is rated @ 79CFM.

BrianW

FishaOfMen · 09-02-2003, 11:29 PM

This is really interesting. I'm about to set up my watercooling, and I've really been debating on whether to go with one fan or two. Has anybody else seen similar results? or maybe different results (no difference between 1 & 2)?

BrianW · 09-03-2003, 02:28 AM

Going out on a limb, don't know how far? I would say all things being equal, and with axial fans, push and pull is always better. If it is feasible in your setup, then I say use push + pull.

BrianW

pakman · 09-03-2003, 03:25 PM

fishamen, I came across this gem of an article from the man himself (BillA) over at overclockers.com. link

While it is a review of a specific line of thermochill brand radiators, the results especially Bill's comparison using various combination of fans should apply to most similiar size radiators/heatercores. Look closely at some of the results he gets from a push/pull vs single pull fan.

Tempus · 09-09-2003, 08:36 AM

I'm still trying to decide which way to go. It almost seems like the advantages for push/pull vs single fan vary depending on a number of factors.

Quote:

Several fans were tested at 12 and 7V, both singly and in a push-pull configuration. Running the single Delta FFB0812EHE at 7V instead of 12V reduced the radiator capacity by 18%. Running two Panaflo FBA08A12 fans at 12V instead of one increased the heat dissipation by 17%, while running the two Panaflo fans at 7V produced no gain at all compared to the single fan at the same voltage.

The same basic result seems to hold true. At low voltages/low cfm, 2 fans perform the same as a single fan. High CFM setups (2 deltas) at high voltages will out perform one -- possibly by reducing deadspot issues, but 2 low CFM fans will be the same as a single low CFM fan.

If that assumption is holding true, then the big benefit would be to get 2 high CFM fans and run them at ~9V (fanbus time again) to maximize cooling and minimize noise. Looks like the data curves should meet right around there.

Ruiner · 10-01-2003, 09:05 AM

Do you have pics Brian?

maxim · 10-01-2003, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Worked like a charm except a lil jbweld leaked from the joints and is slightly visible. Oh well.... Any one know how to clean that stuff?

warm water and a little scrubing

georgeteo · 10-01-2003, 12:54 PM

Billa's comments were based on the thermochill 92.1 and 80.1.
However, I beg to defer about the results of running 4 fans push/pull at 7v vs 2 fans push (with shroud) at 12v.

I'm sure the results of the 4 fans at 7v setup would the same ... if not even slightly better than the 2 fan at 12v setup. Minus all the noise as well

The placement of the fan also matters. Pushing fans require some distance away from the target zone to minimise the deadzone. Since the thermochill rads have their mounting holes just above the fins, I doubt that the push pull setups were actually given a chance to perform to their fullest potential.

If u are interested in 1x120mm/12v vs 2x120mm/12v, take a look at graph 10. U can see that the 2 fan setup destroys the competition!!! If u can stand the noise lvl that is...
http://www.overclockers.com/articles778/index04.asp

Quote form Billa

The HE 120.1 was tested with fans only, in various combinations. Interestingly, two Delta 1212VHE fans at 7V were quite similar in performance to one Delta at 12V, yet the noise was substantially less. These fans might be a ‘solution’ for users interested in a dual performance mode. Again, the Papst low noise fans were not good performers.

Spend a little more .... participate in the save your ears campaign

08-29-2003, 05:57 AM	#1
BrianW Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Desert City in California Posts: 631	Push+Pull upgraded from Pull Only Hello, Well Today I realized that I have space between my front bezel on the case in my sig (Inwin Q500) and the front of my Dtek radiator, for a 120mmX25mm fan. I already had the hole cut in the bezel. I also already had an Atomic Steel Fan Guard on the front bezel in front of the radiator. I also happen to have 6 - 120 MM Evercool Aluminum frame fans. So I tried to use the screws for the fan guard to go through the bezel and into the Evercool fan. Only thing is the chrome fan screws that I have always used were not long enough to go through the fan guard, the bezel and into the fan. The fan is wierd in that the part that accepts the screw is recessed into the fan a good 2-3 mm. I know I could of ordered longer screws, however the impatience in me got the upper hand. I grabbed the JB weld and used the screws as a guide to cold weld the fan to the front bezel. Worked like a charm except a lil jbweld leaked from the joints and is slightly visible. Oh well.... Any one know how to clean that stuff? Acetone? I hooked up the fan to my Rheobus. So my Heatercore now has two fans. Panaflo H1A 120 pulling and the Evercool 120mm pushing. There is a shroud on the Panaflo, but none on the Evercool. Although the front bezel does act like one. Performance @ 12v on both rad fans System: In sig. CPU temps taken with on die thermistor via mbm. Before: Ambient: 78-80F <> 26-27C Coolant: Unknown... Idle CPU: 104-106F <> 40-41C Full Load CPU: 109-111F <> 43-44C Motherboard always : 84-88F <> 29-31C After Ambient: 78F <> 26C Coolant: Unknown... Idle CPU: 97F <> 36C Full Load CPU: 102F <> 39C Motherboard always : 82F <> 28C Looking like about 4C temp drop. Not bad at all. And at 7 volts there is like a +3-4C CPU scale to all temps except for motherboard which will raise 1-2C. Goes to show the power of Push Pull setups. I could prolly drop another degree if I had another Panaflo 120mmX38MM fan in place of the evercool. BrianW __________________ Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core \| Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose). Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently. Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg) Last edited by BrianW; 08-29-2003 at 08:52 PM.*

08-29-2003, 08:51 PM	#3
BrianW Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Desert City in California Posts: 631	Yeah i copied and pasted, and forgot to edit... sorry... The C measurement was different, but forgot to change the F measurement. BrianW I edited it.... __________________ Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core \| Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose). Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently. Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)

08-30-2003, 01:17 AM	#5
BrianW Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Desert City in California Posts: 631	The fan is about 5-7mm from the core, mounted to the front of the case bezel. The Evercool is rated @ 79CFM. BrianW __________________ Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core \| Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose). Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently. Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)

09-03-2003, 02:28 AM	#7
BrianW Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Desert City in California Posts: 631	Going out on a limb, don't know how far? I would say all things being equal, and with axial fans, push and pull is always better. If it is feasible in your setup, then I say use push + pull. BrianW __________________ Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core \| Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose). Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently. Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)

08-29-2003, 11:08 PM	#4
pakman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA State Posts: 76	interesting. correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the evercool substantially lower rpm/cfm than the panaflo H1A's? Which brings me to the next question. in a push/ pull combination is there any benefits to running fans at different speeds or should we stick to same speeds/cfm's for both fans? brian, in your case, the evercool is not mounted directly on the core (correct me if I'm wrong) so I presume any pressure imbalance is solved...

09-02-2003, 11:29 PM	#6
FishaOfMen Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2003 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 17	This is really interesting. I'm about to set up my watercooling, and I've really been debating on whether to go with one fan or two. Has anybody else seen similar results? or maybe different results (no difference between 1 & 2)?

09-03-2003, 03:25 PM	#8
pakman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA State Posts: 76	fishamen, I came across this gem of an article from the man himself (BillA) over at overclockers.com. link While it is a review of a specific line of thermochill brand radiators, the results especially Bill's comparison using various combination of fans should apply to most similiar size radiators/heatercores. Look closely at some of the results he gets from a push/pull vs single pull fan.

10-01-2003, 09:05 AM	#10
Ruiner Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: New Smyrna, FL Posts: 258	Do you have pics Brian?

10-01-2003, 12:54 PM	#12
georgeteo Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 23	Billa's comments were based on the thermochill 92.1 and 80.1. However, I beg to defer about the results of running 4 fans push/pull at 7v vs 2 fans push (with shroud) at 12v. I'm sure the results of the 4 fans at 7v setup would the same ... if not even slightly better than the 2 fan at 12v setup. Minus all the noise as well The placement of the fan also matters. Pushing fans require some distance away from the target zone to minimise the deadzone. Since the thermochill rads have their mounting holes just above the fins, I doubt that the push pull setups were actually given a chance to perform to their fullest potential. If u are interested in 1x120mm/12v vs 2x120mm/12v, take a look at graph 10. U can see that the 2 fan setup destroys the competition!!! If u can stand the noise lvl that is... http://www.overclockers.com/articles778/index04.asp Quote form Billa The HE 120.1 was tested with fans only, in various combinations. Interestingly, two Delta 1212VHE fans at 7V were quite similar in performance to one Delta at 12V, yet the noise was substantially less. These fans might be a ‘solution’ for users interested in a dual performance mode. Again, the Papst low noise fans were not good performers. Spend a little more .... participate in the save your ears campaign

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