Heater Core Blowers

[decodeddiesel]

OK been a while since I posted a new topic, but it appears we have fairly reliable, somewhat frequent internet access. So, I want to test the waters with a fairly simple, though perplexing (due to limited site access) question.

I have been browsing the forums latley and been looking specifically at Cathar, and BB2k's posts. The interesting thing I have been seeing is the use of automotive heater blowers in place of 120mm axial fans. This seems like it would work very well for the project I will finally have the budget to complete when I return to the States (combat pay, etc. ).

Anyway on with the question: it would appear from what limited stuff I can look at that BB2K is using a single cage blower, while Cather is using a dual cage blower, on I think one big ass heatercore. I saw the pic of Cathar's blower and based on the limited scale I could get from the 120mm fan (at least I think it's a 120mm fan) it appears to be a good size for my plans. I also was looking at copyman's old "custom" radiator posts, he too seems to have a dual cage blower. My question is what does the pricing look like on a dual cage blower like this? What about a single cage blower like BB2K? Are there any specific sites anyone can reccomend that would have pricing, dimensions, and specs for these blowers? If I may ask, how did you BB2K and Cathar get a hold of your's? Well thats it, sorry if this is rather long winded.

WILL TRADE WAR STORIES FOR INFORMATION!!!

God Bless America

[Cathar]

Automotive blowers are almost always made as OEM jobs for specific makes/models of cars. They're not something that you'll typically find sitting on a shelf down at the local auto parts outlet store.

My blower is about 15cm in diameter, and 33cm long with the two cages. I have two heater-cores hooked up in flow-series sitting beside each other in my radiator box, effectively acting as a single large 4-pass 22cm x 28cm surface area radiator.

Now to buy the dual-cage blower new, in Australia, is around the $150US mark. I picked up mine second hand sitting on a shelf for $70US, and then sadly had to spend another $70 four weeks later to replace the motor which was basically screwed, which is probably why it was just sitting on a shelf. The new motor is fantastic and has been running for about 3 months non-stop at 7V low-speed setting, but I digress.

I think I was just unlucky with the motor. When I pulled it apart it was basically fine, just rusted in a few spots that eventually led to it wearing away at its bearings, probably as a result of sitting on a damp shelf for 6 years.

Where I'm going with this is that it's probably easiest to just go to a car wreckers and yank a blower out of a late model wreck. It won't have seen much use, the motor won't have had time to rust, and you'll probably be able to pick it up for $40US or so, plus some effort.

As for specs and dimensions, the best place to start would be with a radiator repair centre, such as a Natrad outlet store, and ask to browse through the heater-core blower catalog. Then you can pick out the blower model that you think you want, find out what cars that it lives in, and then go to a wreckers with a mission.

[decodeddiesel]

Thank you kindly for your quick response Cathar. I suppose Australia is closer to Iraq time than the US is.

Well perusing your stomping grounds at OCAU I finally found your thread describing basically what you answered again for me here. Very clever, and very interesting results. Probably an accurate assesment of your motor failure i would say, ball bearings don't like rust that much.

The price is a little higher than I figured, however not much. The way I see it it would be more adventagous to spend a little extra cash on such a thing as this rather than blow it on something like a Thermochill 3x 120mm Radiator. You recomdation on finding one in a new vehicle sounds like a plan. I am willing to bet such places as autozone and Napa would have the necessary cataloges so that is a place to start, oustanding.

Once again, thank you for your fast and very helpfull reply Cathar.

BTW, I know you have heard it thousands of times before, and it is somewhat belated, but outstanding job on the LRWW and Cascade. Truely a giant leap in WB design and theory.

[bigben2k]

Funny, I was just about to update an old thread with recent info.

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7400

I picked up the blower at a used auto parts shop, for $20 US (It would have been cheaper had I payed cash: you figure it out ).

The thing is... you'll have to be careful with these automotive blowers, and keep an eye on them. Although they're designed to run for many, many years, under the worst of conditions, here's what I found inside mine:

Yep, nasty looking dust!

Probably not much to worry about, but some WD-40 sure helped a lot!

That particular blower wheel is 147 mm max diameter, so it's not an easy fit, inside a case (no external solution for me!). Wheel height is about 55 mm.

Case clearance: 180 mm...

If you can get your hands on one, a motorized impeller would be an easier fit, but I haven't found one for less than $75 US.

[Groth]

I've had a $10 junkyard blower running nearly continuously for the past two years. It's cheaper, quieter, and cools better than the pair of 120mm fans it replaced. It's a single 6" x 3" cage model and draws 2.1A at 7V.

Blowers rule!

[decodeddiesel]

Thank you for your reply also BB2K, very interesting stuff here. What kind of vehicle is yours taken from? Also from working on older cars I know that dust well. Thats the crap that is all in the venting system in a car, especially if it was a smoker's vehicle. Compressed air should remove it, but I would be a little leary of the bearings eating some of that shit and choking. Regardless you're probably fine.

This motorized impeller, could you post a link to something that would shed some light on that? $75 doesn't really scare me as I am willing to spend some coin on this blower as I think it would be much more gratifying that putting some blue LEDs and CCFLs in my system.....

Can't wait to see where all your work lands you BB2K, I also have been following the Johnson pumps, and your other mods, very cool.

[bigben2k]

Thanks! The blower is from a Ford Mustang.

I was told by a junkyard junkie that a smaller blower might be found in one of those compact cars: Geo Metro, Toyota Corrola, and such.

I'll dig up the link.

[edit] Here we go:
http://www.medibix.com/Runsearch.jsp...t=manufacturer

You can see that the motor sits inside the wheel (versus outside, for an automotive blower). The advantage is that it's a lot more compact, and you ought to be able to fit it inside of a case, even a regular one!

I found that the minimum size for the blower wheel should be at least 4 inches (diameter), otherwise the flow just isn't there.

Then you have to build a shroud for it. With a motorized impeller, you can have a top inlet, and a side outlet. I'd avoid putting the intake through the top of the case, 'cause that's just a setup for a good laugh, as you accidentally spill a cup of coffee in it...

The blower will provide much more pressure than axial fans, so if you get your hands on the PQ curve for a particular unit, you won't be treating it the same way as an axial fan, where most of the pressure is lost.


In case you missed it, here's a thread (that I highjacked) with some more links:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7314

[decodeddiesel]

Originally posted by bigben2k

Then you have to build a shroud for it. With a motorized impeller, you can have a top inlet, and a side outlet. I'd avoid putting the intake through the top of the case, 'cause that's just a setup for a good laugh, as you accidentally spill a cup of coffee in it...

HAHAHA

You certianly gave me a good chuckle picturing that in my head.

Thanks once again for your help, I did in fact look at that thread previously for the speed control data from the Comair Rotron but I missed your discussion on the motorized impellers. Very cool stuff. I had known previously of the advantages of using blowers as opposed to axial fans. However I was never able to find anything that would looked as though it would work. I deffiniatly think I could find something that would work well with what you have given me. Also with the great fiberglass shroud How-To #rotor posted I think I can make these puppies work. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction BB2K, great stuff!!! Now I just have to figure out how to build a shroud to fit 2 of these on my Econoline Van Hi-Output heatercore (app 140mm x 260mm cooling area) and stuff it into my PC-70. The dremel is going to be pulling serious overtime when I get back, good thing I've got 2 of em.

[g.l.amour]

/off topic

glad to see you alive and well there

/off topic

[bigben2k]

One more thing...

Make sure you catch Turbokeu's circuit diagram in the Johnsin pump thread: you'll need at the very least, the diode, to protect your PSU from a negative voltage spike, when you turn it off.

The caps, are EMI/RFI filters, and are optional. If I ever pick up the coil, I'll send you one, when you get back.

Here's the "Johnson pump" thread:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=6650

[decodeddiesel]

Originally posted by g.l.amour
/off topic

glad to see you alive and well there

/off topic

Thanks, I'm doing everything I can to stay in one piece.

OK checked it out BB2K, Turbokeu certianly is clever. I've been a fan of his stuff since his first PC-70 design. I appreciate to offer, I just hope there's still enough of these left at the surplus place for me to pick up 2 of em. I am really currious to see what kind of reliability/durability you get with your pumps. Thanks again for the help!

[bigben2k]

I wish I could say they'd be around, I really don't know.


I have yet to measure the power draw of the blower: all I know is that at 12 volts, it exceeds the PSUs rated 12 amps, and shuts it down within less than a second. Doing a little math, it means that the equivalent resistance is less than 1 ohm, which means that the blower would be drawing at least 5 amps, at 5 volts.

:shrug:

[fhorst]

Maybe a little of topic...

Why use blowers?
- do they perform better? (how much cfm)
- are they more silent?

Sure, a bit more work to let them run, but, is it worth it?

[Blackeagle]

fhorst,

I'm sure you're aware of the advantage of a high head pump @3gpm & 22 ft. of head vs. a pump offering 5gpm but only 7 ft. of head. The high head pump will deliever a much higher system flow.

A blower fan is like that high head pump, it provides lower cfm, but a much higher pressure. So more air flows through the resistence of the rads fins and thus the lower cfm blower cools better than the axial fan with a much higher cfm rate but only 1/4 the pressure rate, or less, of the blower.

I hope this explains it OK.

[Cathar]

Yep, the blower I use supplies just over 4in H2O of air-pressure at full speed, which is rather extreme. Your typical 100CFM 12cm fan will provide in the vicinity of 0.30in H2O of pressure.

The air-pushing potential of the blowers is like chalk and cheese when compared to axial fans when pushing through restrictions. Axial fans are great for low-restriction/open air moving ability, but slow greatly in their tracks when presented with restrictions.

I guess one could compare it to low-head high-flow water pumps (axial fans), to closed-impellor high-pressure low-flow water pumps (like the Iwaki Z-series pumps or the Swiftech MCP600), just like BlackEagle did above.

[fhorst]

Thanks for the replies!
Makes it a lot more clear to me.

What about noise levels? are they also "as quiet" as a normal fan?

And if they are, why would anyone still use the normal fan's?
They are a lot more expensive than the blower I've seen from the link. http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-b...&type=store but the noise level 66 dba.............. that is a lot! but I guess that's at 12v.

I have no problem kicking out my PAPST fan's and replacing them with one blower, it the performance would go up, and the noise level would go down....

What's the best blower (performance, noise level wise) out there?

[Cathar]

While it varies depending on model, I think that it would be generally fair to say that a blower will produce the same air-flow through a restrictive (radiator) system with less noise and less power than an axial fan that gave the same system air-flow.

The main reason why blowers are not used is because of their size. They are just plain bulky. Where an axial fan is basically 2 dimensional, with the 3rd dimenion being maybe 1/4-1/3 of the size of the other two dimenions (eg. a 120x120x38mm axial fan), a blower that has the sort of properties we're talking about would at least be around 120x120x120mm in size, if not a bit bigger.

Blowers have nice low voltage properties. Yes, many blowers at full speed will be quite noisy, but you can run them at quarter voltage for maybe 1/8th the noise, and still be getting better air-flow than an axial fan.

The blower I have will run all the way down to 4V/low speed setting, at which stage it's drawing about 6W of power and is very weak. I typically run it at 7C/low speed, and it draws ~20W of power and pushes out about as much air through my radiators, as a 80CFM fan does in free air (no load), and is about half as noisy as then 80CFM fan would be.

It can also run all the way up to 15V/18A (~270W) and the amount of air and pressure it pushes here is simply staggering, but the noise, while definitely loud, isn't that annoying, and definitely easier to live with than a 7K RPM 60mm Delta, or 6K RPM 80mm Delta. Imagine your car heater fan running at full blast, since that's exactly where my blower comes from. Loud rushing air, but no whining or droning.

As to "what works best?", well this is a fairly new area for computer water cooling systems. I tell you what though, the heater-cores that we've been grabbing and using for our water-cooling radiators all came from cars that had blowers sitting behind them to push air through them. i.e. the car industry has already done the math and worked out what works best.

When people are looking for a cheap radiator by going to a wreckers and ripping out a heater-core, they would do very well to go the extra step and grab the blower behind the heater-core while they're at it, since that's the thing that was purpose built to push the air through the heater-core that they're grabbing, and it runs on 12V to boot.

[fhorst]

OK, Thanks for the info.

If I get it corectly, better run the to car dump, and get me a nice air blower!

Any idea's on what to look for?
Sure, "no dusty b@stard" e.g., but how to check if they are OK?

With fan's I know that if I shake them a bit, and they make a bit a clicking noise, or move the fan by hand, and that does not run smooth, then the fan is most likely bad.

How about blowers? the same? Any brands of cars that are known for a silent blower?

[fhorst]

here is a nice link with an overview of a lot of car blowers...
http://www.vdo.com/siemens/sycomax/u...VAC_UK_Web.pdf

[fhorst]

Hi All,

I need you help a little. I got me a nice blower from the junk jard, it's from a VolksWagen (VW)(German brand)

It runs like a charm, but it makes a bit a strange sound (like a kracking door, but higher, and longer lasting, about 2 seconds) at the start-up. Nice and quiet at 5 and 7v.
If I run it by hand, it needs "quite some force" to move it. (about 8 times as much as moving a fan blade)
When I have it powerd, and turn it of, it stops quickly. Allmost if it would have some kind of brake on it.

The guy at the junkjard had about 5 different blowers, and they all where a bit hard to move by hand, and stopped quickliy after you have given it a "swing".

I'm cleaning it now with WB40, and it goes some better, but it still does not have a "free flow".

To the people out there, who are using a blower: IS this normal behaviour? Do you have a free flow?

Any tips on cleaning?

Thanks for the replies!

[bigben2k]

That's unusual.

The motor has brushes, but the wheel should still turn very easily, using a single finger. If you look at my first post in this thread, you'll see a pic of the rotor.

I don't know about European blowers, so maybe you have something completely different. AllI can say is that the WD-40 helped get rid of some of the constant whir, but I never had a "starting whir".

Tell us more?

[fhorst]

I now completely “flushed" it with WB40, and its silent now.
No more starting whir (thanks for the correct word), and sure, I could run it with one finger, and a lot smoother now.

With a fan, when you swing it, it keeps spinning for a while, and it stops smoothly, at the end, the fan moves a both back and forwards.

My blower runs smoothly, though some more force is needed compared to a fan.
When it stops, it does it quite quickly. It does not slow down like a fan, it slows down to a certain rpm, and then stops.
it does not have that slow turns that you can see the rotors.

Well, I guess I better go to a car shop, and find a new blower, just to compare. For me it's running fine and virtual silent at 7v.

Diameter of the blower is 12 cm, and the rotor is about 5 cm high. Total including the engine, it’s about 15 cm. I could get me a bigger one, but I think this one will do the trick just fine.

Does your blower also quickly stop, no slow last turns?

[bigben2k]

Mine will keep spinning for a few seconds, maybe 5 seconds, but I'm running it undervolted at 5 volts. I wish I had an RPM gauge.

What I can't do, is run it at 12 volts, because it draws more than 12 amps.