Fluid XP+ Cooling Fluid

[bigben2k]

A puzzling article by Joe Citarella (OverClockers).

Fluid XP+ Cooling Fluid

Untested claims?!? :shrug:

Contains:
Dihydrogen Oxide, [Water]
Xanthan Gum, [CP Kelco: Keltrol-T &/or Keltrol-T622]
1-Dodecanol [Lauryl Alcohol]
1,2-Propanediol [Propylene Glycol]
1,2,3-Propanetriol, [Glycerin]

but I don't see what these substances do to make this fluid "maintenance free". Anyone else?

[Butcher]

I don't see the advantage over distilled water and antifreeze myself. And it costs a lot more.

[AngryAlpaca]

Doesn't all alcohol weaken acrylic, making that a bad choice with a lot of blocks and bay reservoirs?

[kronchev]

they actually called it Dihydrogen Oxide???? HAHAHA!!

Yeh stay away from these guys..

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by Butcher

I don't see the advantage over distilled water and antifreeze myself. And it costs a lot more.

The advantage is in the claim that it is maintenance free: no need to flush and refill every 6 months or so.

[UnloadeD]

I also heard a claim that it's non-conductive, so if it leaks in your system, nothing will get harmed :shrug:
Sounds like snake-oil to me

peace.
unloaded

[kronchev]

Originally Posted by UnloadeD

I also heard a claim that it's non-conductive, so if it leaks in your system, nothing will get harmed :shrug:
Sounds like snake-oil to me

peace.
unloaded

well look at the numbers

pure distilled is 0-10
this stuff is about 70
tap water is 200 something

50/50 water wetter-water is...23,000

Honestly I dont let it be that big of a concern. ive taken my computer all around, to lan parties in my car, an hour each way, taken it apart, etc, only two leaks ever. once when my shitty ass danner mag 3 had its built in leak, and once when I didnt have the front of the hydor on all the way. both times they were on the bottom of the case and everything is raised so it wasnt a problem. theres just a lot of water wetter crust from the filled mag system leaking.

[Butcher]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

The advantage is in the claim that it is maintenance free: no need to flush and refill every 6 months or so.

Yeah but I can claim a lot of things are maintainence free, doesn't mean they are.

[redleader]

Water + Propylene Glycol = antifreeze. I don't think this is anything special.

[mklt]

Wow, how many of you guys are chemical engineers? :shrug:

I am, so maybe I can help you through some of your concerns regarding Fluid XP.

Of course this is a free country and you can use anything you want in your systems but I have invested a great deal of money into my business and computer so I only want to use the best proven fluid for my cooling.

I have studied Fluid XP since it was first annouced about a year and a half ago.

First, for you Kronchev, They got the term Dihydrogen Oxide from the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). This document is a document used when shipping any fluids/formulas/chemicals so that the shipper and receiver are sure of the product they are shipping and receiving. This is the correct term used because if you just say "water" the quality of the water is a unknown and can not be varified. This term is used to ensure it is certified as lab grade deionized water. Why would you, "stay away from these guys" when obviously they have taken the proper steps in correctly calling the deionized water as just that. They obviously have taken the appropriate steps in correctly managing the fluids productiom and certification. You mentioned you had two leaks. scary stuff. I'm glad it only ran to the bottom of your case. The internal leak in your Danner product is a perfect example of why you should consider Fluid XP because there is no guarantee of the quality of workmanship on products being shipped by manufactures. Yeah, they guarentee workmanship but they won't provide you with a new system if it is fried due to any leakage by their products. Check out the disclaimer. If you were using something like water wetter and distilled water or distilled water and Anti-freeze and it hit your board then you certainly would have fried your system. Water wetter contains alkaline. The same alkaline that is used in alkaline batteries. This is the acid (by the way acid is usually more conductive than water) that causes the ions/electrons to move thru the battery thus having a great ability to be conductive. (Unloaded)Snake-oil is obviously not a title for this fluid, in my opinion, but you can call it what you want. Oh, tap water is any where from 250-300 microSiemens/cm depending on the region of the country you live in.

Angryalpaca, cool name. Yes, there are alcohols that are known to weaken acrylic in a concentrated state but 1-dodeconol is a long chain polymer and is a different type of alcohol. plus the 1-dodeconol is in a concentration less than .05 percent by weight in Fluid XP. It usually is in the form of a solid and has to be disolved into a liquid to be properly used and even then it can leave some of it in a solid state until warmed. That's why you might see some small white flakes floating in Fluid XP. 1-dodeconol is used in Fluid XP as a anti-evaporative agent. It creates a very thin layer on the top of the surface, say in the reservoir, to keep the fluid from evaporating off so quickly. It basically makes a thin pseudo-plastic layer to keep in moisture.

Butcher and redleader, Anti-freeze is a lot like water wetter. The anti-freeze has alkaline in it. It also has stuff like Ethylene Glycol (Poisonous, enviromentally dangerous), Diethylene Glycol (Also posinous and environmentally dangerous), Dipotassium Phosphate (A salt thus improves conductivity), silicates (Small particles not really an issue) and sodium Benzoate (A salt usually used as a anti fungal still a salt which conducts electricity).

Some people use windshield washing fluid which is very dangerous not only because it is very conductive but it also contains Methyl Alcohol which is very flamable. If you read on the bottle you will see,"Use in a well ventalated area" or verbage like, "keep away from heat". This is because it is very flamable. If this stuff shorted out you system and there was a spark you could get a fire or even worse there could be an explosive environment created because the methyl Alcohol evaporates much quicker than the water so it is more concentrated as more pure concentrated alcohol. BOOM.

Bigben, The untested claims are what overclockers calls them. The conductivity claims were tested by SF Analytical in Milwaukee Wisconsin. I can probably get a copy of the document which states these conclusions. If you want to get a copy of this document then get me your email and I'll get a copy scanned and sent off to you if I can work it out. Better yet contact Integritypc, the company that I know is selling it, and they should have a copy of the letter to get to you.


If I can be of further assistance in understanding anything I'll be around.

I hope you all have a great day.
regards,
mklt

[syncmaster]

Wow I guess after all that info everyones questions should be answerd!

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by syncmaster

Wow I guess after all that info everyones questions should be answerd!

Yeah, I will still use water.

[syncmaster]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Yeah, I will still use water.

Ha,Ha I just was at D-tekcustoms page they also carry this now. Looks like major distribution is on the way...

[Groth]

Originally Posted by mklt

Water wetter contains alkaline. The same alkaline that is used in alkaline batteries.

Has it got a name?

This is the acid (by the way acid is usually more conductive than water) that causes the ions/electrons to move thru the battery thus having a great ability to be conductive.

I note that both you and the official literature refer to alkalines as acids. Is this particular to the company, or to chemical engineening?

tap water is any where from 250-300 microSiemens/cm depending on the region of the country you live in.

How 'bout distilled water? (I don't know anyone that uses tap water.)

The conductivity claims were tested by SF Analytical in Milwaukee Wisconsin. I can probably get a copy of the document which states these conclusions. If you want to get a copy of this document then get me your email and I'll get a copy scanned and sent off to you if I can work it out.

I'll take you up on that offer. E-mail address is: me.groth [at] sbcglobal.net

If I can be of further assistance in understanding anything I'll be around.

It'll be good to have a ChemE around, for a bit of expert assistance in some of the corrosion threads.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by syncmaster

Ha,Ha I just was at D-tekcustoms page they also carry this now. Looks like major distribution is on the way...

Certainly nothing wrong with using it. I am not going to pay $80 a gallon for this shit when I can get distilled water for $.50 a gallon or 50/50 mix antifreeze for $3.50 a gallon.

[syncmaster]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Certainly nothing wrong with using it. I am not going to pay $80 a gallon for this shit when I can get distilled water for $.50 a gallon or 50/50 mix antifreeze for $3.50 a gallon.

jaydee116 what size resevoir do you have that holds a gallon :shrug:


anyone?

quick question.
Isnt distilled water not necessarily lab grade deionized water? Doesnt it contain more ions thus making it more conductive?

[MDaniel]

I agree, too expensive. It sounds like a nicely developed product, but for almost $80? I'd rather spend the $5 for distilled water and anti-freeze and the remaining $75 on my next GPU upgrade. Who knows, I'd like to see some more reviews though.

Should I win the lottery, I'm sure I'll change my mind...but then I would probably just pick up a Mach5.

But those are just the thoughts of a blue collar guy.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by syncmaster

jaydee116 what size resevoir do you have that holds a gallon :shrug:


anyone?

quick question.
Isnt distilled water not necessarily lab grade deionized water? Doesnt it contain more ions thus making it more conductive?

Don't use a rez. My system holds about 1/4 a gal which is drained and refilled about 10 times a month as I test various blocks I make. I don't want to spend $20 for this stuff when I can get a 4 fill ups worth for $3.50 (50/50 antifreeze/distilled water). Conduction means nothing to me.

I have completly soaked my mobo before in water while it was running and nothing came of it (including the CPU socket). Water is not as dangerous as people make it out to be. Anyway I digress, I can make a water tight system and have no fear what so ever of water on my parts if it was to ever happen again.

Also it looks like you have to buy it 32oz at a time which is a half gallon. $40.00, no thanks.

[Titan151]

I read somwhere the other day that water produced from condensation contains very little electrolyte. This said I wonder if you could produce a quantity of water using a pelt or chiller and then use that in your system. This is likely how they make deionized water in the first place, but would be interesting anywho. At work I often times need to measure the resistance of soil and water. It would be interesting to evaluate a variety of different compounds and see how they compare. The other day I got a drop of condensation on my 9800XT. Of course it hit right at the pci slot between the gold connectors. I just about flipped when i saw a tiny burn mark. I only checked since my graphics were bugging out. After a quick wipe the card returned to normal.

[gone_fishin]

When it spills onto your contaminated boards, it will itself become contaminated and more conductive. Just like distilled water.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by gone_fishin

When it spills onto your contaminated boards, it will itself become contaminated and more conductive. Just like distilled water.

Especially if you don't blow the dust off your board every now and then.

[pHaestus]

I'm no chemE but I associate alkaline w/ basic pH. I associate alkalinity w/ something else of more relevance (carbonate content primarily). Water droplets are pure as they condense in atmosphere to form rain (ph7). They are in equilibrium w/ carbonate before they hit ground (ph 6.3). That's why pristine waters are all slightly acidic; pH 6.3 or so from hco3-. I know that my barnstead water purification system (18.2 Mohm deionized distilled water free of particulates, pyrogens, dnase/rnase, and all other contaminants) has same EC as our house distilled water (ro 16Mohm or so) if you pour them both out into beaker and measure. Can't fight henry's law...

but i'm no cheme




0

[Titan151]

Originally Posted by gone_fishin

When it spills onto your contaminated boards, it will itself become contaminated and more conductive. Just like distilled water.

Yes this is a very good point. Regardless of conductivity of your cooling solution, mixture combines with contaminants it would not be good. That said I find little reason to drop 20 bones on e-bay for something that apears to offer little more then Deionized Water. Too bad I am still using tap water . I empty my system out so often that I have yet to pick any up. But soon with some quick connects I hope to put an end to all this!

[bigben2k]

Actually, I'm calling it an untested claim. The remark wasn't about the product, but about the review.

As posted earlier:
Contains:
Dihydrogen Oxide, [Water]
Xanthan Gum, [CP Kelco: Keltrol-T &/or Keltrol-T622]
1-Dodecanol [Lauryl Alcohol]
1,2-Propanediol [Propylene Glycol]
1,2,3-Propanetriol, [Glycerin]

I personally don't have a problem with the denomination for water, I'm also familiar with MSDS.

The issue we have is that according to a couple of articles on coolants, including this one:
http://www.procooling.com/articles/h...er_coolin1.php

A solution of water and glycol (ethylene or propylene) "provides an initial benefit, but breaks down over time. ", as stated by Brian.

The article further elaborates:
"Some cheaper brands have no buffering chemical, which means that they break down sooner. Check the pH level and change before it drops. Some antifreeze solutions have silicates added to prevent aluminum from being corroded."

So what we see is a solution that *should* degrade, but since no one has enough knowledge of chemistry, we don't see where and how this degradation is prevented.

Out of the remaining elements:
Xanthan Gum, [CP Kelco: Keltrol-T &/or Keltrol-T622]
1-Dodecanol [Lauryl Alcohol]
1,2,3-Propanetriol, [Glycerin]
one of these surely does something, right?


Otherwise, I certainly admire the idea of a maintenance free coolant, but I don't see the info to support the claim. You have my email address.

[talcum]

"First, for you Kronchev, They got the term Dihydrogen Oxide from the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). This document is a document used when shipping any fluids/formulas/chemicals so that the shipper and receiver are sure of the product they are shipping and receiving. "

Actually, an MSDS is doc required by OSHA to allow a worker using a material to know the hazards associated with it. OSHA does NOT require an MSDS for water (http://www.loganact.com/tips/royko.htm) however other companies have made up there own MSDS according to the CAS No. and their form of the material. For example the MSDS for Reagent grade ethanol from Fisher is different from the MSDS for ethanol from Jim Beam. To say that the MSDS "ensures" it's quality is a misnomer unless they provide their MSDS with the material.

" This is the correct term used because if you just say "water" the quality of the water is a unknown and can not be varified. This term is used to ensure it is certified as lab grade deionized water. Why would you, "stay away from these guys" when obviously they have taken the proper steps in correctly calling the deionized water as just that. They obviously have taken the appropriate steps in correctly managing the fluids productiom and certification. "

And their attempts at obfuscation by not using the generic chemical names, makes me wonder at your term "obviously". I mean is it reagent grade Dihydrogen Oxide? or laboratory grade? Or food grade? Since the manufacturer writes the MSDS, it's not clear to me what you're getting. Do they use a Millipore system?

" Water wetter contains alkaline. The same alkaline that is used in alkaline batteries. This is the acid (by the way acid is usually more conductive than water) that causes the ions/electrons to move thru the battery thus having a great ability to be conductive. "

A bit of confusion on OH- versus H+ on the alkaline vs. acid, but phaestus is more precise in a later post.

Still would regard this as De-I water and a little preservative for 1000% markup.