Joe's Thermosyphon at overclockers.com

[UNDERBYTE]

Originally Posted by dr.chaos

I agree with Cathar but....
I'm a long time reader of both Overclockers.com and Procooling and I'd like to remind all Procooling readers (or tell you if you didn't know) that in the first years of activity OC.com was designing and selling their own heatsink, so this is not the first time they have a conflict of interest.
In all honesty I don't remember if they stopped selling their own heatsink when they begun to review third party products or if they weren't making enough money with it.
Joe did also act as a consultant for different kind of manufacturers in the past (I think it was something related to video card cooling or similar, but I may be wrong).
Joe or Ed did also do some interesting tests with an oscilloscope about motherboard built quality, but they stopped immediately... dunno if they were asked to stop or if it is a different story, I'm just suspicious about that :shrug:

OC.COM is one of the oldest more respected sites on the web.

Joe sold the first real overclockers sink the pin fin Alpha's with the 60mm fan more to introduce it to the OC community than to make money he probably sold all of 200 units

Joe was the first to introduce The concept of C/W into the hardware review chaos that existed prior to it's introduction.

Joe was was one of the earliest advocates in promoting water cooling

Joe I think Likes being ahead of the curve. It is hard for me to understand how people have fits of moral certitude when nearly every hardware review site on the web when you open the webpage to review has as his main advertiser the company whose product he is reviewing.

Joe is at least is being upfront he could have made up another story and hid behind a corporate shield. I think the fact he is being honest about what he is doing means allot. The fact that if joe can bring this to market and it has merit chalk one up for the OC community. I for one am cheering the underdog

[Cathar]

Well, from a cooling advancing viewpoint for the common user, if there's one good thing that comes from this is that it'll make it a heck of a lot harder for these mediocre water-cooling kits to justify themselves, and that can only be a good thing.

[UNDERBYTE]

Originally Posted by Cathar

Well, from a cooling advancing viewpoint for the common user, if there's one good thing that comes from this is that it'll make it a heck of a lot harder for these mediocre water-cooling kits to justify themselves, and that can only be a good thing.

thats always the challenge, Maserati performance at VW pricing. What stuck me as most interesting about joe's block design is a plastic top with a minimal insert in the bottom some kind of copper or carbon foam or whatever. But it looks like it would cost under $5 to make.

For water cooling to become mainstream take your best design and figure out how to make it for $2.00 and you have a winner.

use stainless steel or copper flexhose and make a cheap small copper radiator ala" XP90. white box it and you are on your way to the bank,

Joe's design/cost model looks like a good one

[Cathar]

Not sure though of the wisdom of publishing the results of his research before he has a commercial product ready to go.

This is the sort of thing that companies like ThermalTake drool over. Someone else does all the work, then they step in and make it cheap.

[Ruiner]

He said they've filed for patents....maybe it's enough to keep them covered.

[Ls7corvete]

You say you want a disclamer telling people that he is manufacturing HSFs and I think he has done that well enough by posting that article. If he posts some kind of disclamer I think it would be taken the wrong way by most of the audience.

You also say that past reviews come into question because they were done without the audience or suppliers knowing about his development of this. I think that his timing in telling people about this is dead on, with completion of his first prototype.

[Cathar]

ls7corvete, there is one other option you forgot to cover in your reply.

The moment one realises that they are entering a position that can be perceived as a conflict of interest, then cease all reviews and hand that responsibility over to someone else, and develop the technology behind closed doors. Heck, it's what everyone else does.

Am still a little perplexed about the definition of an independent test though, especially with this statement:

"there will be independent tests published by a very large technology company which has assisted us in this effort"

Must be a different definition of "independent" to which most people are accustomed to. Confusing though is JoeC's own tests placing it behind the XP90C, yet "independent from a company that's assisting us" places it far ahead.

An alternative yet again to your limited response is this:

The correct timing of this, if he were acting as a true enthusiast would be as all enthusiasts do: explain the idea publically, explain why he thinks it'll work, and commence a work-log from the time that the project starts. Alternatively if you have an idea to make a commercial product, you develop it silence, keep it behind closed doors, and present it when it's nearly complete like he's done. Nothing wrong with that, but the entire time he's been doing that he's been presenting himself as an independent reviewer.

Look, I'm not begrudging JoeC his work, his time spent, or his right to turn a profit. I don't agree with the way the timeline has played out with respect to disclosure.

I've had my say. I'm stopping now.

[Ls7corvete]

I just think he is in the middle, between commercial and hobbiest. He has a enough innvested into this to keep it secret but still does not have enough in the works to be commercial.

How things are handled from now on are key but I have doubts that there will be enough sales to change his status considerably. Only thing to do is wait and see how production turns out.

[UNDERBYTE]

My guess is the new condenser looks tooled to me, so does the cap He might be closer to production than you think.

XP 90 on the independant Tests are small die at higher W. While most of Joe's tests are large die IHS tests at lower W. I would like to see a comparable tests water/XP90/thermosyphon Low and high W, a range of motherboards,die Large and small. Looks promising but I would like to see the full range to get the total picture.

Homemade prototypes do look rough and may not reflect the finer attributes you would see in a fully realized production model

[Brians256]

Originally Posted by Ruiner

He said they've filed for patents....maybe it's enough to keep them covered.

Patents are easier to get around than you might think. One, because it is difficult to make a patent complete enough to prevent competition without being rejected for being too broad or being too vague. Two, because some countries don't care as much about US patents.

[Etacovda]

3, because patents cost a bloody packet and people often just say they've filed for a patent when in fact they havent, in an attempt stop people from copying an idea - so the patent may never be in existance. Unless hes got a lawyer friend, it will cost him a small fortune...

[cotdt]

I'll bet Thermaltake is reading these forums and getting ideas...

[bigben2k]

Cathar is right, there is a conflict of interest.

However... the conflict as described (by Cathar) is competitive against other cooling solutions, which, IMO, is pretty broad, but still valid. The proposed disclaimer would be appropriate.

Something needs to be cleared up though; at issue is not that Joe has used his testing (so far) to create a product; nothing wrong has been done, and no one has claimed such.

No one has reason to believe that Joe has falsified any tests to otherwise promote his product. The issue is that this potential now exists.

Since Joe now has his own product, some manufacturers may refuse to send him samples, which then skews the entire testing effort.

As for the "independant testing" of the current product, I believe that it would best be called "testing by a 3rd party", but I suspect that there's going to be more to it than that.


Many products have been promoted as being "better than the competition" but we all know that the credibility there is pretty slim. Not even Swiftech publishes numbers about other waterblocks; it's rather pointless. Instead, Swiftech has published results on their site of a " Competitive review, courtesy Procooling.com" (here: http://swiftnets.com/products/mcw6000.asp# ).

I also plan to test a few water block designs of my own, and if I came up with one that would be marketable, I'd be facing the same thing; I'd have to drop one or the other. Effectively, that puts me in a conflict of interest, right now.

If Joe was hired as a consultant for a third party to advise them on a particular design issue, or otherwise assist them on a design, that would also be questionable.

Then again, we don't know if there might have been any kind of agreement, prior to testing any particular units, which would have covered any such thing. No one in the general public has been made aware of such.

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by cotdt

I'll bet Thermaltake is reading these forums and getting ideas...

You can bet on that.

[jaydee]

Thermaltake is already getting tooling made up....

[Pessimisten]

Joe has put this in his newest review about the swiftech H2O-Apex Watercooling Kit

Disclosure: Joe Citarella has a financial interest in a company developing thermosyphon products for electronic chip cooling.

Reading this forum maybe?

[Voodoo Rufus]

The discussion was raised at OCF as well, and the disclaimer was the result.

[IMOG]

Cluck, cluck, cluck

[stev]

Originally Posted by Razor6

Sounds like a Vapochill Micro.

http://www.burnoutpc.com/modules/wfs...?articleid=213

I couldn't find any detailed reviews where it is put up against other high-end air coolers.

Razor6,

Yep!

BUT, the VapoChill Micro's test results look great and it packages in a smaller area. Joe's unit with the very long hose dryer tubes take a hit on performance.

I got four of these VapoChill Micro's on order. For the cost of being less than $50USD each, they are better for a medium OC'ed system than a WC setup? Why? Less parts, no tubing to route, and the over all cost is less than a good price of a pump!

LG back in 1999-2001 came out with the first "thermosiphon" for cooling CPU's. It was called the Calmera (KS-07) in Europe. This was more of a cooling novelty than anything else. It looked like this ...



Then LG made the better unit. It was called the KS-10.


Soon, LG ( http://www.leonhardt-group.de/index4.htm ) sold them through Asetek. http://www.leonhardt-group.de/Produk...-Kuehler_e.htm

Asetek then brought us the VapoChill Micro! Also known as the LG KS-20.



The Micro is a very leading technology over the other two previous thermospihons. LG started production of these units for Asetek last month. For the price, they are excellent compared to other priced cooling solutions out there.

There are more reviews coming on this product.

If Asetek holds the price on these, we'll see more of them in the very short future.

Stev

[bobkoure]

I just ran across an interesting paper about this (while looking for something completely different). Remembered this thread at procooling...
Exploration of the Theoretical Limit of Thermosyphon Cooling System

[gone_fishin]

I must say I love this thread.

New innovation devoloped in the secret confines of the diabilical OC.com laboratories...... oh wait it is not new technology at all.

Throw in a lure of a certain sites credibillity and BAM..... reel em in.

The intrigue, I'm waiting on the edge of my seat to see the first DIY clone. (Someone is holding out I can just feel it).

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by gone_fishin

I must say I love this thread.

New innovation devoloped in the secret confines of the diabilical OC.com laboratories...... oh wait it is not new technology at all.

Throw in a lure of a certain sites credibillity and BAM..... reel em in.

The intrigue, I'm waiting on the edge of my seat to see the first DIY clone. (Someone is holding out I can just feel it).

It gets better:

http://www.overclockers.com/articles1257/

[jaydee]

http://www.overclockers.com/articles1258/

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by jaydee

http://www.overclockers.com/articles1258/

Now look at the "Case Temps" vs the "Die Temps" between the two.

Big difference. One slightly favors JoeC's solution, the other greatly favors the Asetek (noise-wise).

I've never liked "Case Temps", let me know what the die is doing any day of the week. Case temps can vary due to insufficient centralised clamping pressure to hold the IHS against the CPU die.

Not that the P4 die-temp sensor is a whole lot better either - sitting in a distant corner and not really located anywhere near where the heat is being generated.

[Razor6]

The SI-120 looks a lot more attractive to me at this point.