US vs German systems - advantages/disadvantages?

[Cathar]

Pug, there was no admission of "that the latest German/European production hardware will put yours to shame", although that is the key-card that you wish to attempt to push, for marketing reasons, and it is quite obvious to all who look on.

The system you presented is mostly a US-style system. It levels the playing field by using almost exactly the same design elements that US systems use. It's not that any of us think that the system you assembled is superior, but it no longer fits into even firtol88's category of " small quiet package that could perform as well as a ballsout system". The kit you assembled is a balls-out system. It proves nothing.

That it will do very, very well, I have no doubt. If I submitted my idea of a performance "kit", it wouldn't be much different in concept. The pump would be roughly the same power. The radiator would be roughly the same in size/performance. The fans would roughly be the same. So what would be different? The CPU block is what, and we already know that the NeXXoS XP is not something to be underestimated. None of us were under that illusion.

i.e. the kit you assembled is for all intents and purposes a "best of US-approach" kit. All else being equal, the only thing that would separate it from a top-end US kit would be the CPU waterblock.

There is no admission of anything. The only thing I see here is that there is a tacit admission by more modern European block makers that medium-high power pumps, and large unrestricted radiators, are somewhat key to getting higher performance out of a kit, but that's something that's been known for a long time now.

Like I said before, if all that comes out of this thread is that we (USa and Europe) are reaching a convergence between two previously dichotic design philosophies, then why the heck is anyone fighting about it any more? If what you say is true about more modern European equipment, then there is a convergence.

However, and I think that this statement from you best belies your truest intentions in all this:

Originally Posted by Pug

I can cool every major heat producing component in my mid-tower PC with a fully internal setup using production, off-the-shelf, German parts with a 5 Watt pump and two low noise Papsts. Please show me a more efficient system using US production parts.

If that is true, and that is what you truly wanted to show and prove, then why was that not the kit you put up for this farce? Instead, the kit you proposed has a high-powered pump (more like 20W is my guess when run in AP1500 mode), specially commissioned HWLabs radiators, and a radiator who's size makes it quite difficult to fit into a mid-tower PC without significant modification.

The kit you presented is not what firtol88, an admitted ardent admirer of the European way, would appear to want in his system.

Even if the test does go ahead, and through the US-style parts you've assembled does manage to go on and "win" by a small amount, that still doesn't prove anything, because the kit is nothing like a "small, quiet, low-power" setup that fits neatly into a mid-tower case.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Pug

If a conclusion is reached as to what we are allowed to submit to this site for review in the meantime, please have a representative of Pro-Cooling contact me to give me the official position of the site itself on this.

I have a novel thought. Rather than letting us biased US-centric approached people decide for you, how about you let the Europeans decide?

Without telling them why you're doing it, put up a number of polls on a few European forum sites asking things like:

What tubing size would you prefer in your system? (4mmID/6mmOD, 6mmID/8mm OD, 8mmID/10mmOD, 10mmID/12mm OD, 12mmID/16mm OD)?

Which pump would you rather have in your system? (Low powered pump - up to 5W (Eheim 1046 or equivalent), Fair powered pump - up to 10W (Eheim 1048 or equivalent), Moderate powered pump - up to 25W (Eheim 1250 or equivalent), strong pump (up to 40W - Danner Mag 3), very strong pump - (over 40W - Iwaki etc)?

What radiator size would you rather use for your water-cooling setup? (1 x 80mm, 2 x 80mm, 1 x 120mm, 2 x 120mm, 120x240mm, over 120x240mm)?

What fans would you rather put on your radiator? (Effectively Silent - up to 25dBA, Very Quiet - up to 30dBA, Quiet - up to 35dBA, somewhat noisy - up to 40dBA, noisy - up 45dBA, very noisy - over 45dBA)?

Gather the results, and then assemble the kit that meets the majority European user's desires.

Then how about someone here does the same for the USA audience, and does the same thing, by assembling a USA kit based around what the USA audience what.

The kit assemblers can then pick and match what they believe is the best of the components from their respective markets that meet and suit the audience voted criteria, and then put those systems head to head. The waterblock that gets used is left to the discretion of the kit builder that best suits the rest of the kit.

Now wouldn't that be a truer indication of the USA vs European way of doing things, by first getting a true indication of what each audience wants?

Now the purpose of doing this in a number of different European forums is that I believe that certain countries in Europe will have different opinions. I reckon that the UK will be more high-power focused than Germany, and this will when allow us all to better classify which country's approach that we really are testing here.

[freeloadingbum]

Originally Posted by Cathar

Even if the test does go ahead, and through the US-style parts you've assembled does manage to go on and "win" by a small amount, that still doesn't prove anything, because the kit is nothing like a "small, quiet, low-power" setup that fits neatly into a mid-tower case.

It will prove which block is better. That's all that really matters any way. If a highly restricted block also performs better in an uncomprimized system, that's something worth knowing. It's just pointless to send equipment across the ocean that can easily be duplicated locally. Much better to send more blocks instead.

For me, the only question regarding european cooling systems is why the hell do they like 1/4 inch tubing so much when everybody knows "Chicks like the big hose"

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by freeloadingbum

It will prove which block is better.

Only if the kits are identical otherwise.

I do agree though - much of what's being sent can be sourced locally, or can be substituted with equivalent parts. It all comes down to the water-block's performance, which is dependent upon the flow rate, so really that's all that needs to be tested. Better to spend the money to send more blocks, rather than full kits.

If we really want to test kit approaches, then use the "popular" method I proposed above to define just who's perception of what a "country themed kit" really is made up of, rather than leaving it to inherently-biased marketers (on either side of the pond) to determine.

[freeloadingbum]

Originally Posted by Cathar

Only if the kits are identical otherwise.

Yes, of course. like flurtol88, I think a comparison done like the tdx nozzle test , showing a variety of blocks in low flow and high flow systems would be the best way to go about it. But I only say this because I know I'll be sitting with my fat ass in a recliner, drinking hot chocolate and marshmallows, while pH does all the work. Too bad paypal can't send people to help (palpal?)

[nigelyuen]

is it high flow vs low flow? not german block vs US block?

[nigelyuen]

iam just interested in the blocks really, is pug still sending the blocks over for testing?
there is no point sending the BIX2 over, becoz you can easily get it in the US, also for the pump you can get a hydor l20 or 1048

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by nigelyuen

is it high flow vs low flow? not german block vs US block?

It is high flow vs low flow. The thing is that the opening post starts out asking us why doesn't the USA do things the German way, which is quiet and low-flow, small and compact, and all fits neatly into a mid-tower sized case.

So it's also a traditional German (low-flow, neat, small, quiet, compact) vs USA (high-flow, not-so-neat, not-so-small, not-so-quiet, not-so-compact) comparison.

It all got murkified when someone decided to "prove it" to us by putting up effectively a USA-methodology kit, made from German (and some USA-originated) components, and then attempted to say that this typified the "new German" way of doing things, and thereby hijacking the original intent of the thread.

Problem is that said person wants to confuse matters further by effectively saying: "I represent German components which are small, compact, quiet, and low-flow, and just as good, if not better, than any USA system. Oh, and please overlook that I just assembled a kit to prove my point that doesn't have any of those characteristics".

[Chew_Toy]

Originally Posted by Pug

I can cool every major heat producing component in my mid-tower PC with a fully internal setup using production, off-the-shelf, German parts with a 5 Watt pump and two low noise Papsts. Please show me a more efficient system using US production parts.

{The model of efficiency as I understand it is work in(wattage of pump and fans):work out (net heat dissipated)}.
That has always been an argument in favour of the low flow approach.


... and if you can't meet either challenge or have little to no experience of both approaches, then stop trashing products you have no experience of.

I believe that I do the same thing with my US based setup, even tho my setup is a bit more crowded but is a smaller case and more things installed.

My mini-tower case

[firtol88]

Originally Posted by Cathar

...The kit you presented is not what firtol88, an admitted ardent admirer of the European way, would appear to want in his system...

Somehow I must have miscommunicated my desires, I wasn't clear. IF a "neat, small, quiet, compact" system could beat a "not-so-neat, not-so-small, not-so-quiet, not-so-compact" system or come within a less than 2C difference as installed on a high end higly overclocked system THEN I would consider that a wet dream, and would buy accordingly. Yes I want my cake and I'd really like to eat it too, however I am aware that this is at this time simply fantasy. It won't always be...

Originally Posted by Cathar

It is high flow vs low flow. The thing is that the opening post starts out asking us why doesn't the USA do things the German way, which is quiet and low-flow, small and compact, and all fits neatly into a mid-tower sized case.

So it's also a traditional German (low-flow, neat, small, quiet, compact) vs USA (high-flow, not-so-neat, not-so-small, not-so-quiet, not-so-compact) comparison.

It all got murkified when someone decided to "prove it" to us by putting up effectively a USA-methodology kit, made from German (and some USA-originated) components, and then attempted to say that this typified the "new German" way of doing things, and thereby hijacking the original intent of the thread.

Problem is that said person wants to confuse matters further by effectively saying: "I represent German components which are small, compact, quiet, and low-flow, and just as good, if not better, than any USA system. Oh, and please overlook that I just assembled a kit to prove my point that doesn't have any of those characteristics".

That about sums it up.

[pHaestus]

So what's going on here then? Let me know what if anything I need to do.

[firtol88]

Originally Posted by Chew_Toy

I believe that I do the same thing with my US based setup, even tho my setup is a bit more crowded but is a smaller case and more things installed.

My mini-tower case

Is that a fan you have sandwiched between those 120 rads? How well does that setup function? It seems that it would be counter productive (pull the heat out and put it back in...), have you tried it with just one rad?

[Chew_Toy]

Originally Posted by firtol88

Is that a fan you have sandwiched between those 120 rads? How well does that setup function? It seems that it would be counter productive (pull the heat out and put it back in...), have you tried it with just one rad?

Actually it is 2 rads sandwiched between 120mm fans

Rad setup

It dropped temps about 2c on my cpu as close as I can tell. I have run it many ways and since I had both I am using both.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

So what's going on here then? Let me know what if anything I need to do.

My suggestion: continue testing waterblocks and attempt to source more German blocks. I'm happy to help and will happily buy you a NeXXoS XP from anyone who's willing to ship me brand new one to Australia. I already have a second-hand NeXXoS HP on its way.

With regards to "German vs USA", there now appears to be some confusion just as to what is meant by "German". Before we can establish a "German vs USA" methodology test, we still need to nail down what is meant by "German".

If "German" really has just converged into a "pseudo-USA" methodology, then just continue testing waterblocks anyway because those are the more important results given that most everything else in the system is now identical in terms of size, power, and flow restriction. Once the "Germans" start using 10mm ID tubing as a matter of habit, then the convergence will be effectively complete.

[Pug]

In reverse order,
Cathar - the Germans have always used 10mm ID and below since I've been in this game.
Pump power has generally been at the level of E1048 and below.
You are either intentionally clouding things here or are very misinformed. In either case, I think you should check your facts before continuing to be so vocal.
You may be confused about what is German but most here will accept that German tends to mean native to Germany in origin. The HWLabs series of radiators is used widely throughout the watercooling scene in kits originating from Denmark, US and Germany. The German-specific version (with interchangeable connectors) is, I believe, exclusive to Alphacool.


Chew Toy - umm, you don't appear to be cooling PSU, HDDs or Motherboard voltage regulators with your setup. May I respectfully suggest that you look more closely at my pic.


Cathar - you accuse me of hijacking the original intent of this thread?
Do you forget how off-topic it was at the time I came in (prior to pHaestus' editing of posts?)
My challenge was to call out those claiming that "adequate" was a German byword and implied that we had no performance offerings whatsoever. Don't twist it further. You insult me enough.
I asked if I should make a seperate thread - no-one advised me to.


Nigel - it would appear that Pro Cooling is set in its ways regarding testing components individually.
A shame as in my opinion, this kit would provide the makings of a rudimentary test setup which one might think would keep proponents of both low & high flow happier than the pump and rad used in the WCP testbench (with the mere swapping of blocks easily facilitated whilst keeping the rest of a system the same.
It might even be of interest to the general public to get real world results of a kit cherry-picked to suit many enthusiasts.

I feel it would also prove that as well as apparently having a block which sends goosebumps down the spines of the "major players" here, we have a pump and version of the BIX II which is superior (in adaptability, if nothing else) to US offerings, so obviously a Pro-US-centric site might conceivably have a problem admitting that and might prefer not to test it. :shrug:

Cathar (Quote) - you go right ahead mate, I've wasted enough time on this myself and if it's likely to be two years before this test rolls around, as with the last German block submitted for review, you have plenty of time to organise it.
All I have to do is look at my sales figures over the past and I know what is popular. I went through an initial phase of selling mainly 10mm ID German parts until people woke up to the fact that narrower bore can work just as well (and in some cases, such as the complete system cooling setup I showed, may actually have advantages).

Originally Posted by Cathar

If that is true, and that is what you truly wanted to show and prove, then why was that not the kit you put up for this farce?

Because that's something I've already shown and proven.
My point was to show that we not only have performance kits available but that they are amongst the best in the world. Way above "adequate" <-- Please try to absorb this fact this time as I'm fed up of repeating it.

My quote that admission of defeat had already been forthcoming was based on BillA's admission that on performance, we had already surpassed Swiftech's offering.
There was a quote earlier, long since edited out, where BillA hinted that there were "too many egos to seek the common ground", I can only assume he was referring to components moving towards 3/8".
We are still on the shallow side of this with this particular kit if the reference is to ID rather than OD, as I understand it, with 7mm being closer to 1/4" but as I said, we have always maxed out at 10mm ID (although this was with barbs rather than push fittings, so at points in the system, obviously our ID dropped below this).
As a UK representative, I'll admit, I have long promoted the use of slightly larger ID systems, such as the new G1/4 offerings and their 8mm ID. They are a relief to me to be able toget, even though smaller ID still has its own inherent benefits, it doesn't suit everyone. I'm not interested in much over this bore as it is my perception that there is little more advantage to be had without sacrificing many other things, such as easy installation and lack of disruption to airflow.


Firtol - that is one of Alphacool's kits. Check the product pages. They have plans to introduce approximately 80 different kit configurations in the coming weeks. There has never been a better choice available (to my knowledge) from any manufacturer.
Sure, I added AS5 (I had a good price on it) and upped the fans to GMLs (I didn't know they were being phased out and as there were 12/7v adaptors included, figured that people might appreciate the greater performance whilst retaining the ability to tune the system to acceptable noise levels).

Originally Posted by BillA

"German/Eu vs US was the spirit of this challenge, not low flow versus high flow." was NOT my interpretation
mine was high flow vs. low flow,
the geography was only related to the source of these type designs

Then you interpreted wrongly.
Remember who issued the challenge? Me.
Know why I issued it? (I've told you enough times)
I issued it in reponse to your statement - "the US is performance driven (the vocal part of the market anyway), Europeans are more appreciative of the phrase adequate"

Originally Posted by BillA

-> you running a bit of a scam on us Pug ?

Please be more specific in your allegations.



HAL -

in response to your efficiency questions, I can cool every component in my computer with Swiftech parts and a single 80mm Papst fan. For ultimate "efficiency" by your measure, Koolance takes the cake. It even cools the hard drive, and for 150 euros cheaper to boot! The trick we care about is how cold it gets.

The efficiency angle is a seperate issue. That's my own rig that I built before I even knew about Alphacool and their products (although it still utilises all parts which are completely German in origin). If you look closer, you'll see that it does cool my HDD too. It also cools my PSU and voltage regs. To my knowledge, Swiftech doesn't offer the requisite parts to do that and the Koolance system, although I'm not qualified to comment on it, doesn't appear to be of quite the same quality.

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

What I wonder, and want to test really, is see how good those German blocks like the NexXxos can be with opened up flow. I mean the NexXxos HP-Pro you sell is an impingement block. Non Einstienian-physics says it would work better with a wider entry over the impingement zone, with more nozzles then whats there so long as it can maintain the same pressure per nozzle, i.e. : 1/2" ID tubing and a manifold to match. Why doesn't the company want take their own top o dee line block up a level? As a performance minded guy Pug, don't you wonder about that? I mean you sell the stuff...

:? They already have taken it up a level with the introduction of the NexXxoS XP. No 1/2" tubing necessary.
Were they to switch to 1/2", I probably wouldn't use it due to incompatibility with my current system and the perceived need to upgrade my pump.


I don't need to come in here and crow that we are ahead of you in this game. I don't even need you to admit it. I just wanted people to stop unneccesarily slamming these parts. This is one way I thought I could achieve that. Was I right or wrong to do it like I did?
If I was wrong, what can I do to achieve my goal?


I'm now at the point where I'm so disillusioned by the attitude of this supposedly influential forum, I'm almost prepared to throw in the towel and sell up; martyring myself in the interests of the common good and the interests of progress.
Perhaps then, the allegations of my vested interest might be discounted (although based on my experience of this thread so far, I'm not even sure if that would make a difference).

[Chew_Toy]

Chew Toy - umm, you don't appear to be cooling PSU, HDDs or Motherboard voltage regulators with your setup. May I respectfully suggest that you look more closely at my pic.


I did notice, I am not cooling those things with water but all are air cooled. On the MB the abit oates cools the power, I have an 80mm fan cooling my HDs and the PS has 2 fans also. I dont see adding heat from those Items into the cooling loop since none of those items are at a dangerous heat level. My case temp runs about 10°F over ambient (read from instant read thermometer) My MB power reads about 15~20°c over ambient (read from onboard sensor) and my HDs are barely warm to the touch.so I would guess maybe at 100°f.

And my system runs 24/7 at 100% cpu load (I run 2 instances of FAH 24/7) and it is my HTPC
I have 3 tv tuners in it (PVR350, PVR250 and a 9800AIW soon to have another PVR250) also a plextor 8x drd writer a 12x dvd player 2x200meg sata HDs .

it also runs that way @ 290~295fsb with a 2.4c and if/when I bench with it I run it at 300~304

here are a couple shots of my temps.

MBM5 Dashboard

MBM5 High/Lo

I built it to perform and be reliable with noise as a secondry consideration. I sleep with it less than 2 feet from my head.

If I were to gool anything else with water it would be the ram.

[Cathar]

There you go again Pug. Under the continual delusion that we're all "scared" of the "big bad Germans" and their water-cooling blocks. Keep it up. You seem to be arguing with a fictitious enemy.

Some examples of your delusional point of view:

Originally Posted by Pug

My point was to show that we not only have performance kits available but that they are amongst the best in the world. Way above "adequate" <-- Please try to absorb this fact this time as I'm fed up of repeating it.

I never said that they weren't adequate. In fact:

Originally Posted by Cathar

That it (the "German" kit) will do very, very well, I have no doubt.

Originally Posted by Pug

Cathar - the Germans have always used 10mm ID and below since I've been in this game.
Pump power has generally been at the level of E1048 and below.
You are either intentionally clouding things here or are very misinformed.

Where did I say otherwise? I'm struggling to understand why you felt it necessary to make this point as I did not say otherwise.

Let's move on:

Originally Posted by Pug

My challenge was to call out those claiming that "adequate" was a German byword and implied that we had no performance offerings whatsoever. Don't twist it further. You insult me enough.
I asked if I should make a seperate thread - no-one advised me to.

Nobody claimed that there were no "performance" German offerings. The phrase "adequate" was used to describe the "typical Germanic" approach as outlined by nightic in his opening post.

Starting to establish a pretty strong pattern here by now as to your real marketing intent here though. Rather than champion that nightic's perception of the German approach can be defended as high performance, you come along and change the definition of what nightic outlines as a German approach with your test setup.

You're right - you should have started a different thread.

Originally Posted by Pug

It might even be of interest to the general public to get real world results of a kit cherry-picked to suit many enthusiasts.

..and I suggested that a more appropriate person to "cherry pick" a USA system would be the USA equivalent of yourself, being a USA reseller.

It would be of great interest, otherwise I wouldn't have suggested it. However, here you go again claiming that we somehow shied away from the challenge, rather than what we really did, which was suggest a more level playing field.

Originally Posted by Pug

I feel it would also prove that as well as apparently having a block which sends goosebumps down the spines of the "major players" here

There's the autocratic arrogance again. People here, including myself, are going out of their way to get a hold of these blocks to see what they can do. Far from being "goosebumped", they're confronting the situation head on.

That's an amazingly twisted perception in terms of what you perceived vs what was said and the actions taken by others you accuse.

Cathar (Quote) - you go right ahead mate

Already had. I'll fund a "Cherry Pick of Australia" kit with the Australian results I get, should this challenge ever go ahead.

Originally Posted by Pug

My quote that admission of defeat had already been forthcoming was based on BillA's admission that on performance, we had already surpassed Swiftech's offering.

Where did Bill say this? I didn't see it. Please point it out. Or is this another assembling of "facts" to suit your perception of reality?

Originally Posted by Pug

As a UK representative, I'll admit, I have long promoted the use of slightly larger ID systems, such as the new G1/4 offerings and their 8mm ID. They are a relief to me to be able toget, even though smaller ID still has its own inherent benefits, it doesn't suit everyone. I'm not interested in much over this bore as it is my perception that there is little more advantage to be had without sacrificing many other things, such as easy installation and lack of disruption to airflow.

10mmID can be arguably seen as a "common" ground between the two approaches. It appears to be the upper-limit of "German", and the lower limit of "US". This is why I talked about convergence.

Still, I wonder if anyone has ever actually measured the "air-flow" difference for a 10mm ID vs 8mm ID hosed system. It seems to be something that gets bandied about a fair bit, but is never really quantified in any major way, or is it what most people rightfully call it, marketing FUD?

Originally Posted by Pug

I don't need to come in here and crow that we are ahead of you in this game. I don't even need you to admit it. I just wanted people to stop unneccesarily slamming these parts. This is one way I thought I could achieve that.

There's that autocratic arrogance again. What? We should all just take your word as gospel because you said so? Heaven forbid we should debate the issue, huh? Heaven forbid that we should analyse just what is really being put up for test here, especially given the "spirit" of the opening post, and the fairly vast differences between that and what you've put up. To use your own words: <-- Please try to absorb this fact this time as I'm fed up of repeating it.

[BillA]

Pug
a suggestion:
get in contact with Bruce of Cooltechnia
Bruce is a re-seller who enjoys his opinion of 'best', perhaps you and he might sort out how the 2 of you wish to compare offerings
- and should it appear that there are any unresolved performance claims then you might wish to return to the subject of testing

testing IS just what some here at procooling really do understand
testing

and the results require no oracle, the results speak for themselves
no matter the bullshit emanating from a seller

[firtol88]

Originally Posted by Pug

...this kit would provide the makings of a rudimentary test setup which one might think would keep proponents of both low & high flow happier than the pump and rad used in the WCP testbench (with the mere swapping of blocks easily facilitated whilst keeping the rest of a system the same.
It might even be of interest to the general public to get real world results of a kit cherry-picked to suit many enthusiasts.

Originally Posted by Cathar

...and I suggested that a more appropriate person to "cherry pick" a USA system would be the USA equivalent of yourself, being a USA reseller.

... I'll fund a "Cherry Pick of Australia" kit with the Australian results I get, should this challenge ever go ahead...

So it's settled we get atleast 3 cherry picked kits and run them against one another in a real world setting. Other than finding some way to compensate pHaestus for the monumental amounts of work this could require if preformed to his standards, all that remains now is the creation of guidelines in order to determine a winner.

This has the potential to be the best water cooling shootout I can think of.


It will be intersting to see just how "neat, small, quiet, compact" or "not-so-neat, not-so-small, not-so-quiet, not-so-compact" the winning system will be.

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by Pug

The HWLabs series of radiators is used widely throughout the watercooling scene in kits originating from Denmark, US and Germany. The German-specific version (with interchangeable connectors) is, I believe, exclusive to Alphacool.

they sell HWLabs rads with (1/4" NPT) configurable connectors here...
http://www.frozencpu.com/cgi-bin/fro...ex-rad-07.html
http://www.dangerden.com/mall/Radiators/bi_main.htm

[Althornin]

Originally Posted by firtol88

So it's settled we get atleast 3 cherry picked kits and run them against one another in a real world setting. Other than finding some way to compensate pHaestus for the monumental amounts of work this could require if preformed to his standards, all that remains now is the creation of guidelines in order to determine a winner.

This has the potential to be the best water cooling shootout I can think of.


It will be intersting to see just how "neat, small, quiet, compact" or "not-so-neat, not-so-small, not-so-quiet, not-so-compact" the winning system will be.

My kit will require a large cooling tower, like those seen at power plants.

[pHaestus]

it would appear that Pro Cooling is set in its ways regarding testing components individually.

WTF? Pug I said that I would test any mfgr kit that was sent; the thread is too long for me to bother with searching but that is what I said. I also gave you my mailing address to send a german kit. As I am the only person in this thread speaking for procooling, where does that leave your assertions about this site? I also proposed the criteria for evaluating the kits way back in this thread somewhere.

Since AlphaCool uses these HWLabs rads and larger ID tubing as standard parts now, why not pick a standard kit from their website and then ship me that complete package for testing? Then I don't see how anyone can complain.

MY impression from this thread is that you never had any intention of doing anything other than baiting the US mfgrs and Procooling readers so that you could extract (out of context) bits of material to use for marketing for your webstore. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

. . . . .
MY impression from this thread is that you never had any intention of doing anything other than baiting the US mfgrs and Procooling readers so that you could extract (out of context) bits of material to use for marketing for your webstore. Feel free to prove me wrong.

ditto
I'm awfully close to calling Pug a liar

Pug
EVERY time you have used my name, you better have the actual quote handy
you are attributing statements to me that I have not said
- but I expect such from one fighting for every sale (else you would not do so, eh ?)

[Etacovda]

From being a regular bit-tech reader, this leaves me with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth really; I always respected what you did Pug, but now I'm finding that respect waning away, which is a real shame.

The biggest question is, what is 'acceptable'? what is 'adequate'? people around here are after that last degree of cooling, those last 20mhz of overclock... where do you draw the line? 2 degrees at the head output of pHaetus's test bed? 5? where?

Dammit Cathar, after reading the 'big bad germans' I had you pictured as Mr Burns for the whole of that post

[Pug]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

WTF? Pug I said that I would test any mfgr kit that was sent; the thread is too long for me to bother with searching but that is what I said. I also gave you my mailing address to send a german kit. As I am the only person in this thread speaking for procooling, where does that leave your assertions about this site? I also proposed the criteria for evaluating the kits way back in this thread somewhere.

Since AlphaCool uses these HWLabs rads and larger ID tubing as standard parts now, why not pick a standard kit from their website and then ship me that complete package for testing? Then I don't see how anyone can complain.

MY impression from this thread is that you never had any intention of doing anything other than baiting the US mfgrs and Procooling readers so that you could extract (out of context) bits of material to use for marketing for your webstore. Feel free to prove me wrong.

For that, I apologise.
Overcome with the daunting task of responding to every criticism I felt levelled at my initial challenge, I lashed out in the wrong direction.
I didn't want to post today as my mind was elsewhere with personal issues but I did feel I had to respond when I caught the chance to read the updated thread.

The kit I originally proposed is an alphacool one found here on their site.
pHaestus - let me know whether you want to test this kit, a similar one using a continuous tube radiator and lesser pump or just the block itself.

I have nothing more to add at this point as the reaction I have provoked in Etacovda saddens me more than you can know.
Only learning that you've had someone's respect after you've lost it is a hard cross to bear.