ModdersHQ does the DD Laing D4

[BillA]

http://www.moddershq.net/reviews.asp...8&pagenumber=1

now I'm covered on both sides in this (guess why ?),
but I think there is another reviewer who will recieve fewer products from Swiftech;
not showing any competence whatsoever

[Groth]

If you are running 7 feet of tubing, and your pump’s "shut off" head pressure is 6 feet, you most likely won’t be moving any water.

Hard to do a good review when you lack understanding of the fundamentals, easier to overcompensate with repetitive pictures.

[Cathar]

LOL - I see over at OC.com forums where I'm getting mildly set upon by various individuals because this "quality" review found some disagreement with some of the things I said. Some individuals are even going so far as to disagree with things I never said(!), so in true "web-style", if it suits you to put words into someone's mouth so you can attack them, then why should the fact that the person never said those things stop you eh?

Of course, I provided evidence and measured results every step of the way, and this review did not, but I guess that shouldn't stop anyone from believing whatever marketing material that a "review" throws their way if it suits them to do so.

[BillA]

yea, saw that
same as here, eh ?

[redleader]

Jeez ~8 pics of the outside of the pump. Its not THAT interesting.

[greenman100]

admittedly, I am not "in the know"

but is there a possiblity Laing revised the pump to make it quieter, considering the reviewer (reliable?) listed silence as one of this pump's pros?

[jlrii]

admittedly, I am not "in the know"

but is there a possiblity Laing revised the pump to make it quieter, considering the reviewer (reliable?) listed silence as one of this pump's pros?



Watch the video link on thew last page and decide how loud it is...sounds the same to me.

[GreenPsycho]

well, i'm glad to see procooling is such a friendly site

of course everyone is entitled his or her own opinions, however, you all seem to have petty complaints about the review. for starters: too many repetitive pics. i would disagree. the more the better. people want to know exactly what they are getting before they throw down that much money for a product. we dont just offer meaningless graphs with arbitrary numbers that no one can decipher(*cough*), but give the consumer an image of the product as a whole

secondly, you must understand noise is entirely subjective. what may be low to me may make someone else's ears bleed. i do not have any equipment to measure dba levels, but if that is what you would like, i will gladly accept paypal donations. sorry we don't have equipment to measure sound, or pressure, or exact flow rates

finally, we market our reviews to the larger community, not the elitist water cooler. if the generic cooling joe can't understand what we are trying to say, then we've failed. i understand other sites do not have this same position, but that is our focus at MHQ: nothing too technical or indepth that we lose our readers or turn them off to the subject entirely. We try to find a suitable balance between n00bs and pros, and i feel we've accomplished that, and if that isn't good enough for you "gurus," then that is just too bad

[AngryAlpaca]

Our point about the pictures is that you're putting too many of them in and not enough technical information.

Your first major error in my opinion is comparing it to a VA2600. Useless comparison there. You have the chart on its side, flow should be at the bottom and pressure at the side. Your graph is also hard to read due to the solid bars, and the line should stop at 0GPH.

Notice how the Via 2600 starts off with a much higher flow rate, however, as the length increases,

Which length? You're implying that tubing length is what affects flow.

However, the MCP600 is more suited for smaller loops that recquire higher pressure.

Doesn't the D4 have higher pressure? Everything I've seen says "yes." Your test is flawed.

If you have a larger system or an external system, then the MCP600 may not be what you are looking for.

That's directly contradictory to the previous sentence. More pressure allows a larger system, even though your test is flawed.

It scales the best and does not suddenly plummet in flow rates when the distance increases.

Distance again.

It sounds like a quiet electric razor, or perhaps the whine of a 40mm fan.

What kind of quiet electric razor? What RPM 40mm fan? I see the link now. It's the loudest pump there by far. You should point out that it's the loudest pump known.

After running it for several hours the pump was only slightly warmer than my hand, and the heat dumped into the water from the pump was not even noticable.

How'd you measure? What cooling method for the water were you using? How much water was in the system?

Rating it as quiet after showing proof that it's the loudest pump on the market does not go very well for most people...

This is not the worst review that I've seen, but it is also by far not the best.

You may be writing for noobs, but are you doing them a favour?

[BillA]

welcome GreenPsycho

pardon us for assuming your site's readers were interested in factual information
now that we know that the writers work to maintain ignorance, the article is more comprehensible
one might even say that your article was quite effective

gigo

[HammerSandwich]

Originally Posted by GreenPsycho

finally, we market our reviews to the larger community, not the elitist water cooler. <snip> We try to find a suitable balance between n00bs and pros, and i feel we've accomplished that, and if that isn't good enough for you "gurus," then that is just too bad

You really fooled me with the review's first sentence: "Today we have a real treat for all you watercoolers."

[GreenPsycho]

holy crap, this is probably one of the worst tempered forums i have ever been to. it seems some of you people care not for logic, but will do whatever you can to poke and prod at something that might have some minor issues. i have no reason to reply to arrogance or idiocy, so "unregistered's" remarks will not be addressed.

Our point about the pictures is that you're putting too many of them in and not enough technical information.

Your first major error in my opinion is comparing it to a VA2600. Useless comparison there. You have the chart on its side, flow should be at the bottom and pressure at the side. Your graph is also hard to read due to the solid bars, and the line should stop at 0GPH.

i disagree. in fact, i think reviews on this site do not have enough pictures nor enough physical description of the product. as for the chart, it doesn't really matter which side is up or down. it reads the same way, and that is all that matters. just because everyone else is doing it a certain way, doesn't mean it the only way.

i'm not sure any comparison is useless. i compared it to the 2600 cause that is the pump i had at the time(actually, it died). what does it matter though? it just gives the reader a reference to go off of

Which length? You're implying that tubing length is what affects flow

well, considering i showed the graph, it can only be assumed that we are talking about head pressure height

Doesn't the D4 have higher pressure? Everything I've seen says "yes." Your test is flawed

what test may that be? i didn't not/could not test pressure. instead, i ran some quick tests to make sure that the graph on dd's site is correct and went from there. i never once said i tested pressure.

That's directly contradictory to the previous sentence. More pressure allows a larger system, even though your test is flawed

not necessarily. i was told for my particular system(dual heatercore, 2 blocks, etc) that flow rate is more important because it was not a very restrictive system at all. everything was very open, so the main concern is to get water from the blocks to the rads asap.

What kind of quiet electric razor? What RPM 40mm fan? I see the link now. It's the loudest pump there by far. You should point out that it's the loudest pump known.

you don't think that is a little nitpicky? i mean, come on man, lets not get crazy. you could do the same thing to every single review out there(including ones from procooling), but that isn't necessary. if you ask a regular modder what a 40mm fan sounds like, he gets an idea. if you ask any man what an electric razor sounds like, he knows what you mean. don't be silly. that is NOT the loudest pump known. i have had 2 that are louder, so i will not say its the loudest pump known. in fact, i can't even hear it above my fans, so it doesn't bother me the least. read my above post about subjectivity and noise.

Rating it as quiet after showing proof that it's the loudest pump on the market does not go very well for most people...

i never proved that it was the loudest, you came up with that conclusion on your own and you are entitled to your opinion. however, i do not agree with yours, and i will not say something i do not agree with. if you wish, you can send me a sample of some other pumps to compare noise volumes to, and i'd be happy to amend the review. until then, everyone has to deal with what they have, and i maintain my position that the pump is not too loud.

edit:

You may be writing for noobs, but are you doing them a favour?

how am i doing them a favor? basically, people just want to know which is better, and i believe we delivered. in that way, then i guess i am doing them a favor.


as for billa, i would like you to know that we have no interest in dealing with a company that employs people of your caliber that post this kind of garbage, which ultimately reflects on your company. You also seems to treat your customers quite badly, considering i've helped pay for your food the past few years. at any rate, we WILL review swiftech products, but from resellers, most definately not swiftech. i have half a mind of calling up right now to cancel my order.

[HammerSandwich]

Originally Posted by GreenPsycho

well, considering i showed the graph, it can only be assumed that we are talking about head pressure height

what test may that be? i didn't not/could not test pressure. instead, i ran some quick tests to make sure that the graph on dd's site is correct and went from there. i never once said i tested pressure.

I'm very confused right now. Head is a measure of pressure, so testing head without testing pressure seems impossible to me. GP, would you please describe your testing procedures? TIA.

[GreenPsycho]

LOL, ok, i can see how this is confusing. basically, i did not test pressure as with an inline gauge, etc etc. i did test the head height(swung a tube over my shower door. but i have no hard results on pressure, only head height


also, i hope not all of you think the d4 laing is loud, cause a little bird told me that swifty is actually going that direction with pumps and ditching the mcp600. most likely a rumour, but some interesting info nonetheless

[Glitch]

k you missed a few points, have an objective look, particuarly with the pictures.

have you taken a picture of the pump at the same angle? if yes, whats the difference between the two pictures. could the 2 situations have been combined to form one picture that is just as informative.

example picture 10 and 11 have the pump at exactly the same angle... what is different about the two pictures? one has a hand in it for a size comparison. picture 11 is showing everything picture 10 is, so why have you got picture 10?

[BillA]

oh shit
a liar too ?
how high is your shower door ?
and dead head on the D4 is ?
-> see a problem ?

you would be well advised to drop this thread
you'll get pounded

EDIT: this is a technical forum

[AngryAlpaca]

This looks like it'll be interesting.

It does not read the same way. Anyone who has seen a PQ curve chart (almost all watercoolers) would be instantly confused and it would take a while to sort it out. If one does not look at the labels, then the results are contrary to reality.

Length of tubing has little to do with vertical (open loop) pressure drop.

If you did not test pressure, how did you get a PQ curve?

not necessarily. i was told for my particular system(dual heatercore, 2 blocks, etc) that flow rate is more important because it was not a very restrictive system at all. everything was very open, so the main concern is to get water from the blocks to the rads asap.

No, necessarily. You were told? By whom? Aren't you the big guy who's writing the review? You obviously have no clue about a watercooling system as you think that speed is a result of maximum flow and not pressure and flow working together. Pressure is MUCH more important in our systems than maximum flow.

A 10RPM 40mm fan will be silent, but a 7000RPM 40mm fan would break mirrors (metaphorically speaking) You must clarify. "There" in that phrase obviously refers to the link...

Yes, you did offer proof that it was the loudest. Read your article again.

My point was that you are not doing them a favour. You're offering opinions (some poor test results as well) that do well to confuse the individuals. You cannot hope to teach them about pressure and flow in a WC system if you yourself do not have a rudimentary grasp of it.

Bill's comments, unless it is specifically stated, do not come from Swiftech. Also, he has only worked at Swiftech for about a year, so I can't figure out how you paid him. :shrug:

PRESSURE AND HEAD HEIGHT ARE THE SAME. HEAD HEIGHT IS A MEASURE OF PRESSURE.

[Glitch]

next, when you do any test, you should write up your testing method. tell us how you tested it is not going to confuse an modder who doesn't want techincal details, but it will give your results some validity, because people can repeat your tests. Also surplying extra info like this will enable you to appeal to a broader audience, some modders would like some more techincal info which they could use to make comparisons to what other people find.

Also graphs have conventions which are there provide ease of reading (should have been taught this is maths) by not following them, you make your graph harder to read, and to some meaningless.

Don't take to much offence, but people here are very hard hitting, and in your face.

Originally Posted by Joe

I was thinking, the slogan of the site should be "ProCooling - Tact just gets in the way"

but rather than read everything as an attack on you, read it as an attack on all your mistakes... some of them are, i feel alittle petty, but it would be foolish not to take on board some of what they are saying. think of it like a teacher marking your work, and picking out all the flaws and corrections and omissions you have made, and telling you want you need to do to make it better.

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

What kind of quiet electric razor? What RPM 40mm fan? I see the link now. It's the loudest pump there by far. You should point out that it's the loudest pump known.How'd you measure? What cooling method for the water were you using? How much water was in the system?

maybe his sample was the more recent (and quieter) version......
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...5&page=1&pp=25

[BillA]

GreenPsycho
you said: (my emphasis added)
quote
Testing
When measuring up a pump, I look for 3 main qualities: 1) flow rate and head pressure 2)noise 3)heat produced. The pump is the heart of a water cooling system. It will most likely not make or break the temperatures, as that is mainly the job of the radiator. But it is responsible for moving the water around. And the quicker the hot water can get to the radiator to cool off, the better the temperatures will be.

Looking at DangerDen’s chart concerning flow rates, I decided to stage a few tests of my own to see how accurate the chart is.

What I found is that the chart is pretty much dead on accurate. In fact, in some cases, I got better results than what is shown on the chart. Seeing as how the chart was accurate, I decided to compile a composite chart of all the competing pumps and how flow rate is affected by head height.

The flow rate of a pump is the volume of water a pump can move during a given amount of time. Simple enough. However, head pressure relates to vertical discharge pressure. Basically, how high a pump can shoot water up until the pump reaches its "shut off" head pressure and can not pump any higher.

How this affects water coolers is that you will find the head pressures drop significantly over a few feet. For the most part, an internal water cooling system only has 3-5 feet of length. However, if you are running an external system, you will want to make sure your pump has enough power to keep the flow rates sufficient at a higher head height. If you are running 7 feet of tubing, and your pump’s "shut off" head pressure is 6 feet, you most likely won’t be moving any water.
unquote

the questions now relate to honesty and competence

the first bolded quote you have admitted is false, your claimed testing was a lie
-> pay attention, have you not read of these big-time reporters losing their jobs for making up false stories ?
your editor should fire you for dishonesty PERIOD

the second bolded quote is ignorant beyond description
seeing such in an article causes me to question the competence of your editor, again

[infinity9]

The thing that gets me is watercooling is just applied physics, but people still feel the need to argue how it can be done differently because they feel a certain way. I think these people that have little knowledge should start calling their review, previews. Thats all they are, a look at that product but no real data to backup any conclusion. How can you actual test something without gathering data and drawing conclusions based on the data. If you do no testing and are showing the product and how it may work in 1 setup then its a preview, just empty words with pretty pictures. If you are testing how a said physical device performs said physical work then how can you not measure the work done and still draw conclusions about the performance of the product. Anyone can read a graph.

[pHaestus]

Hey guys I finally decided to see what was going on in this thread. It should be renamed "attack of the quote boxes". I don't blame you guys though there are some real goddamn gems in this thread. I like this combination (from the same post):

"we dont just offer meaningless graphs with arbitrary numbers that no one can decipher(*cough*)..."

"sorry we don't have equipment to measure sound, or pressure, or exact flow rates"

Allow me to make an analysis using the above statements and the power of deductive reasoning:

You are technically illiterate but profess to be an expert to get free hardware from vendors and manufacturers. COMPETENT readers of the above article will (and have, eh) noted this. You perhaps have not come to this realization yourself (if the mfgrs are pimping you for cheap advertising then what does that make YOU?) and so you are understanably defensive.

How's that for a poorly-tempered forum post?

[BillA]

pH
did you catch "we WILL review swiftech products, but from resellers, most definately not swiftech. i have half a mind of calling up right now to cancel my order."

implied is that he is paying with his money ??

which Swiftech product is going to get it now ?

a "tester" that lies about testing, jesus what next
this is depressing

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by unregistered

oh shit
a liar too ?
how high is your shower door ?
and dead head on the D4 is ?
-> see a problem ?

I had to put my D4 on the floor of my ground floor, and hang tubing from a 2.5m high ladder sitting on the second floor landing in my house to take the D4's pressure head measurements. This allowed me to measure to ~14v or so.

When I was running at higher voltages I had to put the pump outside on ground level, which is about 1.2m below the ground floor level of our house (we live in a hilly area) and do the same with the ladder on the second floor balcony, and even then at 16v the pump was more than able to push the flow right to the top.

...and here I was, going to all that trouble, when simply flinging the tubing over the shower door would have sufficed. What was I thinking?

[pHaestus]

oops well if he pays for all his own stuff then I stand corrected and he's merely an idiot. I somehow doubt his truthfulness on that though for some reason (threw a hose over the shower curtain lol)

//edit And when you were done with all of that you probably made a graph didnt you Cathar? With numbers and such? What a waste!