ModdersHQ does the DD Laing D4

[greenman100]

Originally Posted by GreenPsycho

holy crap, this is probably one of the worst tempered forums i have ever been to.

Maybe you should check out www.ocforums.com.

better "tempered", more ignorant

both fit the person in question (you)

ig·no·rant ( P ) (gnr-nt)
adj.
Lacking education or knowledge

[AngryAlpaca]

Probably? No. You're wrong again. Definitely.

[GreenPsycho]

this has gotten way out of hand, and i'm alittle disappointed to see a mod joining in on the flaming. however, i would like to thank those of you who have offered criticism instead of invauluable flames. perhaps you are correct about the pictures, and because of many people misunderstanding of my tests, i will pay closer attention to that.

oh shit
a liar too ?
how high is your shower door ?
and dead head on the D4 is ?
-> see a problem ?

you would be well advised to drop this thread
you'll get pounded

i dont believe i said i measured the max head height. instead, if you check the graph or any graph, you will know that certain head heights correspond to certain flow rates. i checked the most appropriate head heights and measured flow rate(using a large bin with 5 gallons of water).

If you did not test pressure, how did you get a PQ curve?

i didn't. once again, you guys are not reading what i wrote. perhaps we are too content with flaming me and MHQ that you'd rather just carry on instead of going back and reading. i got all the numbers from the manufacturer's statistics. I did not perform tests to get those numbers. All I did was make sure DD's claims were accurate.

No, necessarily. You were told? By whom? Aren't you the big guy who's writing the review? You obviously have no clue about a watercooling system as you think that speed is a result of maximum flow and not pressure and flow working together. Pressure is MUCH more important in our systems than maximum flow.

i never said anything about speed. you are misreading or perhaps interpreting to fit your argument better. i merely mentioned i was told flow rate is better for my type of system. and yes, i am not the end all diety of watercooling as some of you might claim to be. the site owner in fact advised me of this, and i got several opinions from some names I hold very highly.

Bill's comments, unless it is specifically stated, do not come from Swiftech. Also, he has only worked at Swiftech for about a year, so I can't figure out how you paid him

i did not know that. all i know, is i have been purchasing swiftech's products regularly for several years now. however, it does not matter whether bill's comments are the official words from swifty, he(whether he likes it or not) is a representative of the company in all facets. i'm sure he posts his own opinions here on his spare time, however, he is still representing swiftech and i might say, giving it a very bad name.

the questions now relate to honesty and competence

the first bolded quote you have admitted is false, your claimed testing was a lie
-> pay attention, have you not read of these big-time reporters losing their jobs for making up false stories ?
your editor should fire you for dishonesty

i never admitted that is false. read what i said above about my testing procedures. that is what i stated in the review and what i am restating here. and i take great offense to being called a liar. i do not lie in reviews and never will. mistakes have been made, and perhaps misinformation has been spread due to lack of research on a topic, but it is never intentional. also, i am the editor, so i doubt my position is in jeopardy.

You are technically illiterate but profess to be an expert to get free hardware from vendors and manufacturers. COMPETENT readers of the above article will (and have, eh) noted this. You perhaps have not come to this realization yourself (if the mfgrs are pimping you for cheap advertising then what does that make YOU?) and so you are understanably defensive.

ok, i never said i was an expert. you people have placed that title on me. i am but a humble overclocker, no expert by any means. i would say how much your comment upsets me, but i doubt anyone cares. we do not take on hardware for advertisement or because we get free goods. instead, we do the reviews for the good of the community and would be buyers of the products. i am defensive because 90% of you guys are attacking my character, not my work. i do not mind constructive criticism, yet when i am being called a liar, i am obligated to defend my name.

did you catch "we WILL review swiftech products, but from resellers, most definately not swiftech. i have half a mind of calling up right now to cancel my order."

implied is that he is paying with his money ??

which Swiftech product is going to get it now ?

a "tester" that lies about testing, jesus what next
this is depressing

once again, you are short sighted. we have numerous reseller contacts that would gladly give us swiftech(or any other) products to review. we do not have to buy them ourselves or go through swifty to get them.

and here I was, going to all that trouble, when simply flinging the tubing over the shower door would have sufficed. What was I thinking?

et tu cathar? i expected some respect out of a fellow FM member.


like i said, i really do appreciate the criticism you guys are offering, but i am not a fan of the flaming. i have done nothing to you guys, yet i am still attacked. maybe that is the procooling way?

[infinity9]

once again, you are short sighted. we have numerous reseller contacts that would gladly give us swiftech(or any other) products to review. we do not have to buy them ourselves or go through swifty to get them.

that is so sad. its like asking a ford salesman to test out a new formula 1 car. the reality of it is, the members of this forum and many other people are tired of trash being posted all over the web and people accepting it a true. there is WAAAAY too much incorrect information in the computer world, and honestly i bet a large percentage of the professionals are truly qualified for their position. many a day i still see admins that have no clue.

sad sad sad.

this is why the computer industry has so little faith and the consumer doesnt want to spend money on it. if you are a online reporter you are TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE for the data and opinions your reviews contain. if you dont give an accurate picture with valid data and procedures (its physics dont say there arent proper procedures for testing) then you are hurting the industry. myself and many others are tired of the incessant incorrect knowledge and the insane egos that go with it. how the hell do some of these idiots feel so strongly that they are correct when they havent even done all the proper research. boggles the mind.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by GreenPsycho

et tu cathar? i expected some respect out of a fellow FM member.

like i said, i really do appreciate the criticism you guys are offering, but i am not a fan of the flaming. i have done nothing to you guys, yet i am still attacked. maybe that is the procooling way?

GreenPsycho, you need to understand that here at Procooling that issues are discussed at a deeper technical level than most any other forum. There is a strong call here for accuracy in results and procedures. Many web reviews are critically analysed. When such reviews spread misinformation and only serve to confuse the intended audience of the review, they will often be very harshly criticised.

When I post at FutureMark/MadOnion I tend to tone down my posts somewhat as suits the audience. Here though you're facing a tougher crowd.

The results you posted and the statements you made are clearly erroneous. They indicate a lack of comprehension for the testing that you are attempting to do. This is not a personal attack on you, this is an attack on the total lack of technical expertise that is evident in the review.

Here at Procooling the bulk of us wish for there to be a reduction in the amount of misinformation on the web. I won't go into the details of what's wrong with your review, others have already done that. What I do find objectionable, almost insulting if you will, is that you have expected us to swallow your explanations for how the testing was done, when it is clear to anyone who half knows what they're doing that such could not possibly be true.

The best thing you could do is understand the mistakes you made, cop the criticism on the chin with a stiff upper lip, and learn from it. What these guys here are telling you is very much correct, even if it is a rather jagged pill to swallow to be told just how wrong you were.

My advice, don't attempt to fight the members here on this one. Understand, learn, accept and fix it. I look back to when I started this water-cooling gig 3 years ago and was verbally caned for my ignorance. I fought it and was offended like you were. It was jagged pill to swallow when I finally accepted what a fool I was being by fighting the acceptance of my own ignorance, and I look back to those posts of 3 years ago with utter embarrassment, but that just serves as an example of how far one can come if you can get over one's pride and accept that you can be wrong.

[Edit: Some syntactical corrections for clarity]

[BillA]

Cathar
you've been making some really good posts lately, this is another
(horrible syntax at the start)

hey pH
why not close this on a high note ? (deleting this post)

[AngryAlpaca]

All I did was make sure DD's claims were accurate.

What the hell? You verified the fact without testing! That's impossible!

i merely mentioned i was told flow rate is better for my type of system.

I guess that's correct, you never said it explicitly and I did do some reading in there. However, you should understand your system fairly well, better than just some guy for sure.

he(whether he likes it or not) is a representative of the company in all facets.

And my brother is a representative of McDonald's. So? My dad is a representative of the government. So? Cathar's a representative of Australia. So?

I believe, to the contrary, that Bill is giving Swiftech a very good name. Before Bill, their products were mediocre. Now they're top of the line.

and i take great offense to being called a liar. i do not lie in reviews and never will. mistakes have been made, and perhaps misinformation has been spread due to lack of research on a topic, but it is never intentional. also, i am the editor, so i doubt my position is in jeopardy.

We're saying you're lying, and you are, although you do not seem to know it. I'd suggest that you get off your high horse, head over to the library, and read a big long book on flow and pressure. You might be able to find the necessary information on the Internet, but the Internet is filled with lies and glaring inaccuracies.

we do the reviews for the good of the community and would be buyers of the products.

This is the problem. ALL reviewers feel that they are helping although the vast majority of them are hurting watercooling and the readers.

Yes, that is the procooling way. This is the fastest way to get people to learn of their own mistakes. We aren't trying to hurt you, just to make you not hurt others (or maybe we are trying? I don't know. I pick apart the review and usually not the reviewer [excepting Liquid3D, of course]) We do the same thing to every single review that comes our way. If I see something wrong (it's an impellor, not a propellor) I will state what I see wrong with it, as will most others.

I look back to when I started and was verbally caned. I fought and was offended like you were. It was jagged pill to swallow when I finally accepted what a fool I was being by fighting the accepting of my own ignorance, and I look back to those posts of 1 year ago with utter embarrassment, but that just serves as an example of how far one can come if you can get over one's pride.

[firtol88]

Originally Posted by infinity9

... there is WAAAAY too much incorrect information in the computer world... if you are a online reporter you are TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE for the data and opinions your reviews contain. if you dont give an accurate picture with valid data and procedures (its physics dont say there arent proper procedures for testing) then you are hurting the industry. myself and many others are tired of the incessant incorrect knowledge and the insane egos that go with it. how the hell do some of these idiots feel so strongly that they are correct when they havent even done all the proper research. boggles the mind.

Truer words are seldom spoken.

[greenman100]

Originally Posted by unregistered

Cathar
you've been making some really good posts lately, this is another

agreed, really like the one in the choking the inlet about the lifecycle of a forum

[BillA]

and one on OCers about 3/8" tubing that was stunning
his best was the Simpson routine with his daughter (does anyone know which thread ?)

[soulsend]

My name is SoulsEnd and I’m the Site Owner of ModdersHQ. It has come to my attention that MHQ has received some less the favorable feedback on the review of the DD pump. On that note I would like to thank those that offered constructive criticism. It’s your comments that will help MHQ grow into the website that I personally would like it to be. Please take note of the word “grow” I used. MHQ “opened its doors” late last year and we have quickly become more then just a blip on the radar but in the same breath, we are still growing. To grow is to become more educated and in some cases, to become more educated comes at the cost of error. Could we have done more testing on this one review? I couldn’t agree more. At that point in time, did Green do the best to his ability, yes.

My request is this. Please point out our faults but at the same time let us in on the corrections needed. We all started somewhere and at some point there was someone that gave you a hand. I’m asking simply for the same respect. I couldn’t agree more that there are to many reviews that fall short around the Internet and this time the egg is on my face…so to speak. It’s a lot like someone reviewing a case and not installing a single piece of hardware or checking out a Video card without a benchmark.

With all that being said, if anyone here is interested in becoming a reviewer of water-cooling related products and feel you can produce the level of review that is required, I would be happy to talk to them.

Side note…Cathar, I absolutely love the Cascade SS. Great block mate.

soulsend@moddershq.net

[BillA]

soulsend
valid comments, new site, growing, etc.
but
factual inaccuracies are just that, incorrect statements; with which I have 2 issues
- the propagation of scientific untruths (sounds pompous, but true)
- the damage to a mfgr by a false assertion

these are rather easy to resolve
- have a competent editor review the articles
- afford the mfgr PRIOR opportunity to correct FACTUAL errors, only

now the last can be difficult where products are being compared, but is still necessary to avoid economic damage from false statements

in as positive a sense as I may say such, you need a more experienced editor;
then writers such as this one will be their problem

BTW, I doubt "My name is SoulsEnd . . ", I believe that is your nick (the accuracy thing)

[pHaestus]

Oops guess I should have run the 6002 review by you eh Bill. I got a wild hair late last night and just banged it out though. Any corrections?

[soulsend]

Originally Posted by unregistered

BTW, I doubt "My name is SoulsEnd . . ", I believe that is your nick (the accuracy thing)

Ummmm...ok. Got me there. :shrug:

[BillA]

dunno, somehow I 'feel' I don't have to ck your work
LOL

GreenPsycho
I may owe you an apology for calling you a liar, but you are so imprecise and variable that I am unsure. Giving you a little slack, not a liar. I apologize.
But terribly incompetent for what you attempted to do.

soulsend
its not a gotcha kinda thing, just accuracy

[Tempus]

soulsend

No one is attacking MHQ. We are simply addressing the fact that we found a few possible errors in a review you hosted. When the author of the review responded to our collective "comments" he lied about a number of things (his testing methods and if he even DID tests being the major issues.)

I'm sure most people here, and in water cooling in general, prefer factual and accurate reviews. As a community, it is our responsibilitiy to police eachother and ensure that the correct information is shared.

We all know and accept that there is a (huge?) learning curve here. Many of us (myself especially) are on the low end of this curve. However, a REVIEWER, more than a casual user/poster, has an obligation to post truthfully and accurately. He didn't, and it makes him look bad.

[AngryAlpaca]

This is what we aren't so good at.

I've laid out my problems and most of them are easily correctable if your writer would pick up the basics on flow and pressure (and change that damned graph!) It would only take a couple hours of good, hard research to do and it would improve his reviews immensely. I don't know where all this stuff can be easily learned, but I'd imagine that he can pick something up on google or in a *shudder* library.

Those of us who can do better either write reviews or have a vested (or apparently vested) interest in this (some are lazy). I wish I could say I could write a better review but I honestly don't know.

[pHaestus]

People around here have been spoiled by people like Bill and Cathar and Les who know what the hell they are talking about and are eager to share test results and ideas. Sorta poisons the well for some kid who just wants to post a fluff review on a modding site and help it get a few hits.

Sorry if I came off like an asshole before. I'm usually pretty tired by the end of the work day and today had to deal with people periodically interrupting my work to ask me questions about their schedules. I will skip sleep tonight though and be caught up tomorrow am when it's time for work.

[AngryAlpaca]

OH NO WE'VE BEEN SPOILED WITH ACCURACY!

Doesn't accuracy bring hits? I spread tonnes of overclockers.com and procooling.com links around the Internet due to accuracy (continually more worried about overclockers.com accuracy, though :S)

Edit: Hmm... I guess this guy's inaccuracy got lots of hits from us... Hmm...

I will skip sleep tonight though and be caught up tomorrow am when it's time for work.

That'll make you sound like less of an asshole.

[pHaestus]

Did anyone else read THIS ARTICLE from the ModdersHQ front page?

How can you thoroughly and fairly review a product without the proper equipment? It seems like the guy has good intentions and I was probably too harsh earlier in my comments about his just looking for freebies.

[BalefireX]

I think its obvious in most of these cases that the intentions are good but the understanding is lacking. There is no one "textbook" on PC water cooling - most people learn either from what they themselves observe casually or from others on forums, and often infer incorrectly from even the best of sources - I know I have at times.

Since the majority of us either lack the time or the knowledge to compile a "textbook" maybe we should consider creating a Water Cooling Wiki so that many knowledgeable people can contribute, and the entire community can use it as an easy resource?

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by BalefireX

Since the majority of us either lack the time or the knowledge to compile a "textbook" maybe we should consider creating a Water Cooling Wiki so that many knowledgeable people can contribute, and the entire community can use it as an easy resource?

I believe that is what http://www.ocfaq.com/ was meant to achieve.

[BalefireX]

Originally Posted by Cathar

I believe that is what http://www.ocfaq.com/ was meant to achieve.

Its not a particularly original idea - I'm not surprised to see that something with similar (if much wider ranging) goals exists. A quick look shows that the support in the water cooling section is basically nil - without the input of knowledgable people, a wiki is useless. A Procooling backed WC only wiki would probably recieve better support - both from Procooling members and from the community. I can already see the arguements about iffy statements posted in the wiki though.....

[BillA]

was not a knowledge base the idea behind the "Linkage" section here ?

does it need to be made more useful ?
how ?

[HammerSandwich]

Originally Posted by unregistered

his best was the Simpson routine with his daughter (does anyone know which thread ?)

Looking to be spoon-fed, Bill? Then click here.