n00b to watercooling...

Invincible · 06-05-2002, 05:01 PM

Well,
I had debated about going water cooling for some while, and after going back and forth with the idea for several months, I finally decided that it wasn't for me. Then, I found someone selling a kit on the cheap, and I jumped for it. I figured seeing as the summer months are coming, which means more time, and higher temps, that I would give it a shot.

Here is what I am getting:
Jagged Edge Copper Waterblock
AquaCoil Radiator
Panaflo 120mm Fan
Aluminium Reservoir and Pump
5ft Tubing
Hose Clips
Lexan Clamp and Screws

Here is my rig:

T-Bird 1.33 @ 1.54
KK266-R
512MB PC166
Radeon Workstation
Antec 1030B case
Antec True Power 430W

Here are my concerns

1) Obviously, leaking
2) Maitenance... not sure if I want to have to check the comp every time I boot it up to see that all is ok first, or have to worry about leaving it on all night in case she springs a leak!
3) Portability.... I go to quite a few lan parties... this thing is going to become a tank!
4) Winter comes after summer. Temps go -40 and beyond up here in northern canada, and this past year we dicided to have a lan party right in the middle of a march storm... everythign froze instantly. What will happen if I have water? Will antifreeze cut it?

What do you guys think? What advice/suggestions can you give me? Comments on the performance I should expect?

I am willing to take the time to do this right. I have another system to keep me going when this one is being setup. Is there anything I should know before leaping into the world of watercooling?

Thnx,
Invincible.

ambient · 06-05-2002, 06:18 PM

The kit is decent. If you're going to be going to LAN parties you better make sure that everything is mounted very well. Ditch those hose clips (if there plastic) and go with regular hose clamps. If you use enough anti freeze the water won't freeze, so your cool there. Do you know what kind of pump your getting?

Invincible · 06-05-2002, 07:02 PM

From what I gather here: http://www.overclockers.com/articles348/ it's a RIO 180. This could be wrong though. I have the feeling it's underpowered... but for now I'll only be cooling the processor.

Antifreeze won't hamper cooling potential in any way?

Cyco-Dude · 06-05-2002, 07:36 PM

it will...but thats the sacrifice you make if you dont want your water to freeze (btw, is that -40C?? damn thats cold...).
ive heard of people using windshield wiper fluid (the kind made for useage in freezing temps). some alcohols would also work, but they are kind of hazardous to work with (they eveaporate fast and burn easily).

jtroutma · 06-05-2002, 08:04 PM

Invincible:

That setup sounds very close to my current setup. My pump is a bit different and I dont use an aluminum res..

Personally I would ditch the aluminum res. so you dont have to worry about corrosion. Get a plastic one or something simmilar.

As for the water possibly freezing, does your sink freeze up inside your house durring those cold times? As long as you have the system indoors and running, it shouldn't freeze over or at least not within say an hour. If you are really worried about it, then go with Cyco dudes suggestion about useing windshield wiper fluid; good cooling properties yet will not freeze at the same temps water will.

Kevin · 06-05-2002, 08:22 PM

For LAN parties, make sure to get some doublesided velcro tape for the reservoir. Use cable ties and such to secure the hose.
-Kevin

Invincible · 06-05-2002, 09:01 PM

Cyco-Dude...
Yeah it was -40C! Everything froze instantly going from one end of town to the other. Snapped a few plastic things quite by accident.
Well I have a good couple of months until winter comes around again so I have time to do my research and come up with a solution before then. For the summer, I will have no probs of that sort. Or I should hope not!

jtroutma...
I didn't really like the idea of the aluminum res anyway. I'm not sure why they would make it aluminum. I want something translucent or transparent to light up w/ leds. Sometimes in the winter when we leave for a week or so, the water pipes do freeze. It's the lan parties - where transporting the computer outside in -15 to -40 temps taht worries me, but that is months off. If worst comes to worst, I'll go back to air cooling for the winter months.

Kevin...
Yeah I was thinking of that or mounting clips of some sort. Can't have water flying around the inside of my case!

UpAllNight · 06-05-2002, 09:26 PM

if i carred it around alot i would ditch the res and get a new pump and have a closed loop setup....u can toss those setups around without a chance of a leak inside your case..IMO

Invincible · 06-05-2002, 10:49 PM

You're talking inline system then.
Hrmm, have any reccomendations for pumps in that kind of setup? It would definately take less room. I heard they are harder to get the air out of and what not though.

Brad · 06-06-2002, 03:00 AM

with -40C I'd be using primarily methanol as my coolant, with all metal hose clamps and silicone tubing

UpAllNight · 06-06-2002, 07:59 AM

Ehiem
Danner
Via Aqua(i believe these can be run inline)

any of these would work

to get the air out all u need is to have a T line at the highest point of your system

i believe this is the case u have

Invincible · 06-06-2002, 08:47 AM

UpAllnight...
Is that your rig!?
Pretty smooth looking!!
What temps are you getting (if that is your setup)
What pump is that in the pic, and is it relatively quiet?

Methanol eh?.... interesting.

UpAllNight · 06-06-2002, 09:25 AM

yeap thats mine...its a ehiem 1250 pump(kinda expensive but nice and quiet)

well since the pic,s i have added a gpu block into my loop...so now with a ambient of 24c and a 2.0 volt core full load 35c
and thats with the 120mm fan at 7.0v(very quiet)

but at 1.9 volts and no gpu block i droped down to 28c and 120mm fan at 12v

Cova · 06-06-2002, 02:20 PM

Well - the leaking and maintenence things kinda go together. When I got my water-cooling together for the first week I left the side-panel off my computer so I could constantly watch it for problems. Now I pretty much just ignore it like I would a heatsink.

Portability shouldn't be a problem as long as you design it all inside your case.

Freezing shouldn't be a problem even with straight water. Yes, I live in Canada too and it gets to -40 where I live as well - though not very often. (btw - at -40 is where Celcius and Farenheit cross, -40 is the same in either measurement). Don't leave your computer outside for a long period of time and it will be fine. Water-cooling isn't the only component in a computer that doesn't like to be cold - especially monitors and HD's should be allowed to reach room temp before you power them on if they are very cold - so when I am going to a LAN in the winter, I start the car and let it warm up while I'm packing my computer up in the house. When the car is good and warm I carry everything out to it quick and it stays warm inside the car. With the case closed and any fans not running the air inside your case (large block of dead-air space) will be a fairly good insulator for your water - it would take at least 5 minutes at -40 for it to actually freeze. If you're really worried then antifreeze will solve your problem, but it will reduce the ability of the coolant to cool the CPU somewhat. But if my car can sit outside in -40 and not freeze solid when it's full of antifreeze then a computer can too.

Also - interesting cold weather fact for all you warm climate people. At -50 C if you throw a cup of water in the air it will freeze before it hits the ground. Of course - 1/4 of it will evaporate before the rest freezes (air is VERY dry at -50 C) which will cool down the rest of the liquid (think phase-change cooling of the remaining water), and what liquid there is when thrown will spread into hundreds of little droplets - lots of surface area to cool down on/evaporate from. Also, I believe that at -40C if you go outside, exposed skin will freeze (frostbite) in 30 seconds.

MeltMan · 06-06-2002, 03:27 PM

Hehe, has anyone ever been in a -40F freezer? At my old job, in the winter, I would come in in the morning to find the freezer pegged at -30. I just assume it was colder. You could spit on the floor and it would be instantly frozen.

I always wanted to run a computer in there, with just a heatsink fan. Just to see the temps.

Invincible · 06-06-2002, 03:57 PM

Thnx for the reply cova.

I presume you're right. I mean, dispite the fact that I live 1/2 hour out of town... but if the car is warm...

Anyway, winter is the last thing I want to be thinking about now!
Does anyone have an idea of how the Aquacoil compares to say a BIX? And if I were to get a Eheim pump, would the 1048 do, or should I go all out for the 1250? If I like water cooling, I will most likely eventually get a chipset, gpu and perhaps eventually HDD cooler as well. I suppose I coudl almost use the 1250...

Money is kind of an issue as well. It was one of the deciding factors when I decided not to go water.... I suppose I'll start looking around for those pumps here in Canada. Would anyone be able to point me to a location, at least so I could get an idea of what one will cost?

Thnx again.

bigben2k · 06-06-2002, 04:17 PM

(Let's start a flame war! HaHaHa!)

Go with a Rio pump. You really can't beat the price:$15 ($22.5 cad)

On the other hand, an Eheim will run you $60+ ($90 cad).

Being a newbie, i'd recommend that you start with a simple setup: CPU waterblock only.

Being cold where you are (I'm guessing Winnipeg), you should be all right most of the year. If you find that there is another component that needs cooling, then expand your rig.

Throughout all this though, you must have a goal: quiet PC? Cool PC? Overclock?

From what you've said so far, it seems that you want a light solution (portable), with a nice overclock.

Have you considered different types of cases? Have you considered unusual cases, like a briefcase?

Cyco-Dude · 06-06-2002, 04:30 PM

methinks the BIX is better than the aquacoil and similar kinds of rads.

Invincible · 06-06-2002, 05:43 PM

I wish I would have done a little more research in this field before jumping into it head first!

Well the setup I'm getting comes with a tiny rio. I suppose I could stick with it from the start. Thing is, I plan on doing a ful blown modded case throughout the summer (painting inside, out, lights etc... and seeing as water takes room, I'd like to know what I'm dealing with up front, instead of switching to something else (say new pump halfway through.

Rio. Alright, I'll look into them. that is much more within my price range!

I assume they have inline pumps then? I guess I'll find out. I'm definately just starting w/ cpu waterblock. I was just saying that eventually if I like it....

Not Winnipeg... try Ontario.. a good 9-10 hours north of the Can/US border.

My main goal is dual purposed: Better cooling, but moreso LESS NOISE!!! I'm so tired of my Alpha PAL 6035 and 7krpm fan w/ the other 10 fans in my case.... Also, the look of watercooling, when done right and well thought out is appealing to me as well. I'm looking for a neat, clean setup.

Basically, if I can get my 1.33 AXIA up to 1.6 stable (1544 right now) and have a much quieter, yet still portable PC in the mean time... my dreams will have come true! LoL.

I realise with water, my pc will gain weight - and that is fine, within reason. I don't need to break my back over a LAN party!
I have considered unusual cases, but not for my main rig. Plus I just got this case in to replace the identicle one I'd sold before it.

Cyco...
I think so too. I guess it would be hard to make an 'apples to apples comparison.' It looks much better too as far as I'm concerned. But this Aqua will have to do. Speaking of looks, I suppose you could paint the rad if I used the right paint... hrmm...

06-05-2002, 05:01 PM	#1
Invincible Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 7	n00b to watercooling... Well, I had debated about going water cooling for some while, and after going back and forth with the idea for several months, I finally decided that it wasn't for me. Then, I found someone selling a kit on the cheap, and I jumped for it. I figured seeing as the summer months are coming, which means more time, and higher temps, that I would give it a shot. Here is what I am getting: Jagged Edge Copper Waterblock AquaCoil Radiator Panaflo 120mm Fan Aluminium Reservoir and Pump 5ft Tubing Hose Clips Lexan Clamp and Screws Here is my rig: T-Bird 1.33 @ 1.54 KK266-R 512MB PC166 Radeon Workstation Antec 1030B case Antec True Power 430W Here are my concerns 1) Obviously, leaking 2) Maitenance... not sure if I want to have to check the comp every time I boot it up to see that all is ok first, or have to worry about leaving it on all night in case she springs a leak! 3) Portability.... I go to quite a few lan parties... this thing is going to become a tank! 4) Winter comes after summer. Temps go -40 and beyond up here in northern canada, and this past year we dicided to have a lan party right in the middle of a march storm... everythign froze instantly. What will happen if I have water? Will antifreeze cut it? What do you guys think? What advice/suggestions can you give me? Comments on the performance I should expect? I am willing to take the time to do this right. I have another system to keep me going when this one is being setup. Is there anything I should know before leaping into the world of watercooling? Thnx, Invincible. __________________ .:Invincible Out:.

06-05-2002, 06:18 PM	#2
ambient Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 312	The kit is decent. If you're going to be going to LAN parties you better make sure that everything is mounted very well. Ditch those hose clips (if there plastic) and go with regular hose clamps. If you use enough anti freeze the water won't freeze, so your cool there. Do you know what kind of pump your getting? __________________ water cooled 1.4 tbird @ 1580 143x11 vcore 1.88 vio 3.55

06-05-2002, 07:02 PM	#3
Invincible Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 7	From what I gather here: http://www.overclockers.com/articles348/ it's a RIO 180. This could be wrong though. I have the feeling it's underpowered... but for now I'll only be cooling the processor. Antifreeze won't hamper cooling potential in any way? __________________ .:Invincible Out:.

06-05-2002, 08:04 PM	#5
jtroutma Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: SLO, CA Posts: 837	Invincible: That setup sounds very close to my current setup. My pump is a bit different and I dont use an aluminum res.. Personally I would ditch the aluminum res. so you dont have to worry about corrosion. Get a plastic one or something simmilar. As for the water possibly freezing, does your sink freeze up inside your house durring those cold times? As long as you have the system indoors and running, it shouldn't freeze over or at least not within say an hour. If you are really worried about it, then go with Cyco dudes suggestion about useing windshield wiper fluid; good cooling properties yet will not freeze at the same temps water will. __________________ Athlon64 X2 4200+ @ 2.5Ghz (250FSB x 10) OCZ VX 1GB 4000 @ 250FSB (6-2-2-2 timmings) DFI LANParty nForce4 Ultra-D SCSI Raid 5 x (3) Cheetah 15K HDDs LSI Express 500 (128MB cache) OCZ PowerStream 520W PSU ATI X850XT PE (Stock) DTEK WhiteWater + DTEK Custom Radiator Eheim 1250

06-05-2002, 08:22 PM	#6
Kevin Slacking more than your weird uncle Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD) / Los Angeles, CA (home) Posts: 1,605	For LAN parties, make sure to get some doublesided velcro tape for the reservoir. Use cable ties and such to secure the hose. -Kevin __________________ I used to throw hot coffee all over the ass of the horse there, then whip him while he was kickin' at me. Those f***in things are crazy.

06-05-2002, 07:36 PM	#4
Cyco-Dude Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 836	it will...but thats the sacrifice you make if you dont want your water to freeze (btw, is that -40C?? damn thats cold...). ive heard of people using windshield wiper fluid (the kind made for useage in freezing temps). some alcohols would also work, but they are kind of hazardous to work with (they eveaporate fast and burn easily).

06-05-2002, 09:01 PM	#7
Invincible Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 7	Cyco-Dude... Yeah it was -40C! Everything froze instantly going from one end of town to the other. Snapped a few plastic things quite by accident. Well I have a good couple of months until winter comes around again so I have time to do my research and come up with a solution before then. For the summer, I will have no probs of that sort. Or I should hope not! jtroutma... I didn't really like the idea of the aluminum res anyway. I'm not sure why they would make it aluminum. I want something translucent or transparent to light up w/ leds. Sometimes in the winter when we leave for a week or so, the water pipes do freeze. It's the lan parties - where transporting the computer outside in -15 to -40 temps taht worries me, but that is months off. If worst comes to worst, I'll go back to air cooling for the winter months. Kevin... Yeah I was thinking of that or mounting clips of some sort. Can't have water flying around the inside of my case! __________________ .:Invincible Out:.

06-05-2002, 09:26 PM	#8
UpAllNight Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: HILLBILLY LAND Posts: 159	if i carred it around alot i would ditch the res and get a new pump and have a closed loop setup....u can toss those setups around without a chance of a leak inside your case..IMO __________________ XP1800 @172x10.5 Maze 3..Ehiem 1250..Chevette Rad 1 120mm panaflo @7v 1" shroud All fits nicely inside my case ambient(74 F) 2.0v Core(33.5) Loaded idle(31.5c) Enermax 431 watt Antec 1030B Gainward Geforce 3 TI200 241/548 Sony CDRW Creative 52x CD Soundblaster Live

06-05-2002, 10:49 PM	#9
Invincible Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 7	You're talking inline system then. Hrmm, have any reccomendations for pumps in that kind of setup? It would definately take less room. I heard they are harder to get the air out of and what not though. __________________ .:Invincible Out:.

06-06-2002, 03:00 AM	#10
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	with -40C I'd be using primarily methanol as my coolant, with all metal hose clamps and silicone tubing __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

06-06-2002, 07:59 AM	#11
UpAllNight Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: HILLBILLY LAND Posts: 159	Ehiem Danner Via Aqua(i believe these can be run inline) any of these would work to get the air out all u need is to have a T line at the highest point of your system i believe this is the case u have __________________ XP1800 @172x10.5 Maze 3..Ehiem 1250..Chevette Rad 1 120mm panaflo @7v 1" shroud All fits nicely inside my case ambient(74 F) 2.0v Core(33.5) Loaded idle(31.5c) Enermax 431 watt Antec 1030B Gainward Geforce 3 TI200 241/548 Sony CDRW Creative 52x CD Soundblaster Live

06-06-2002, 08:47 AM	#12
Invincible Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 7	UpAllnight... Is that your rig!? Pretty smooth looking!! What temps are you getting (if that is your setup) What pump is that in the pic, and is it relatively quiet? Methanol eh?.... interesting. __________________ .:Invincible Out:.

06-06-2002, 09:25 AM	#13
UpAllNight Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: HILLBILLY LAND Posts: 159	yeap thats mine...its a ehiem 1250 pump(kinda expensive but nice and quiet) well since the pic,s i have added a gpu block into my loop...so now with a ambient of 24c and a 2.0 volt core full load 35c and thats with the 120mm fan at 7.0v(very quiet) but at 1.9 volts and no gpu block i droped down to 28c and 120mm fan at 12v __________________ XP1800 @172x10.5 Maze 3..Ehiem 1250..Chevette Rad 1 120mm panaflo @7v 1" shroud All fits nicely inside my case ambient(74 F) 2.0v Core(33.5) Loaded idle(31.5c) Enermax 431 watt Antec 1030B Gainward Geforce 3 TI200 241/548 Sony CDRW Creative 52x CD Soundblaster Live

06-06-2002, 02:20 PM	#14
Cova Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 247	Well - the leaking and maintenence things kinda go together. When I got my water-cooling together for the first week I left the side-panel off my computer so I could constantly watch it for problems. Now I pretty much just ignore it like I would a heatsink. Portability shouldn't be a problem as long as you design it all inside your case. Freezing shouldn't be a problem even with straight water. Yes, I live in Canada too and it gets to -40 where I live as well - though not very often. (btw - at -40 is where Celcius and Farenheit cross, -40 is the same in either measurement). Don't leave your computer outside for a long period of time and it will be fine. Water-cooling isn't the only component in a computer that doesn't like to be cold - especially monitors and HD's should be allowed to reach room temp before you power them on if they are very cold - so when I am going to a LAN in the winter, I start the car and let it warm up while I'm packing my computer up in the house. When the car is good and warm I carry everything out to it quick and it stays warm inside the car. With the case closed and any fans not running the air inside your case (large block of dead-air space) will be a fairly good insulator for your water - it would take at least 5 minutes at -40 for it to actually freeze. If you're really worried then antifreeze will solve your problem, but it will reduce the ability of the coolant to cool the CPU somewhat. But if my car can sit outside in -40 and not freeze solid when it's full of antifreeze then a computer can too. Also - interesting cold weather fact for all you warm climate people. At -50 C if you throw a cup of water in the air it will freeze before it hits the ground. Of course - 1/4 of it will evaporate before the rest freezes (air is VERY dry at -50 C) which will cool down the rest of the liquid (think phase-change cooling of the remaining water), and what liquid there is when thrown will spread into hundreds of little droplets - lots of surface area to cool down on/evaporate from. Also, I believe that at -40C if you go outside, exposed skin will freeze (frostbite) in 30 seconds.

06-06-2002, 03:27 PM	#15
MeltMan Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: KS Posts: 374	Hehe, has anyone ever been in a -40F freezer? At my old job, in the winter, I would come in in the morning to find the freezer pegged at -30. I just assume it was colder. You could spit on the floor and it would be instantly frozen. I always wanted to run a computer in there, with just a heatsink fan. Just to see the temps. __________________ MeltMan Lurker Supreme!

06-06-2002, 03:57 PM	#16
Invincible Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 7	Thnx for the reply cova. I presume you're right. I mean, dispite the fact that I live 1/2 hour out of town... but if the car is warm... Anyway, winter is the last thing I want to be thinking about now! Does anyone have an idea of how the Aquacoil compares to say a BIX? And if I were to get a Eheim pump, would the 1048 do, or should I go all out for the 1250? If I like water cooling, I will most likely eventually get a chipset, gpu and perhaps eventually HDD cooler as well. I suppose I coudl almost use the 1250... Money is kind of an issue as well. It was one of the deciding factors when I decided not to go water.... I suppose I'll start looking around for those pumps here in Canada. Would anyone be able to point me to a location, at least so I could get an idea of what one will cost? Thnx again. __________________ .:Invincible Out:.

06-06-2002, 04:17 PM	#17
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	(Let's start a flame war! HaHaHa!) Go with a Rio pump. You really can't beat the price:$15 ($22.5 cad) On the other hand, an Eheim will run you $60+ ($90 cad). Being a newbie, i'd recommend that you start with a simple setup: CPU waterblock only. Being cold where you are (I'm guessing Winnipeg), you should be all right most of the year. If you find that there is another component that needs cooling, then expand your rig. Throughout all this though, you must have a goal: quiet PC? Cool PC? Overclock? From what you've said so far, it seems that you want a light solution (portable), with a nice overclock. Have you considered different types of cases? Have you considered unusual cases, like a briefcase? __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-06-2002, 04:30 PM	#18
Cyco-Dude Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 836	methinks the BIX is better than the aquacoil and similar kinds of rads.

06-06-2002, 05:43 PM	#19
Invincible Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 7	I wish I would have done a little more research in this field before jumping into it head first! Well the setup I'm getting comes with a tiny rio. I suppose I could stick with it from the start. Thing is, I plan on doing a ful blown modded case throughout the summer (painting inside, out, lights etc... and seeing as water takes room, I'd like to know what I'm dealing with up front, instead of switching to something else (say new pump halfway through. Rio. Alright, I'll look into them. that is much more within my price range! I assume they have inline pumps then? I guess I'll find out. I'm definately just starting w/ cpu waterblock. I was just saying that eventually if I like it.... Not Winnipeg... try Ontario.. a good 9-10 hours north of the Can/US border. My main goal is dual purposed: Better cooling, but moreso LESS NOISE!!! I'm so tired of my Alpha PAL 6035 and 7krpm fan w/ the other 10 fans in my case.... Also, the look of watercooling, when done right and well thought out is appealing to me as well. I'm looking for a neat, clean setup. Basically, if I can get my 1.33 AXIA up to 1.6 stable (1544 right now) and have a much quieter, yet still portable PC in the mean time... my dreams will have come true! LoL. I realise with water, my pc will gain weight - and that is fine, within reason. I don't need to break my back over a LAN party! I have considered unusual cases, but not for my main rig. Plus I just got this case in to replace the identicle one I'd sold before it. Cyco... I think so too. I guess it would be hard to make an 'apples to apples comparison.' It looks much better too as far as I'm concerned. But this Aqua will have to do. Speaking of looks, I suppose you could paint the rad if I used the right paint... hrmm... __________________ .:Invincible Out:.

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