New High End Build...Two Loops? - Page 2

Tempus · 12-05-2005, 10:43 PM

First off, while I do love how the general opinion is that a 7800GTX 512M SLI is "overkill" and "won't help" is based on nothing more than a limited experience with gaming.

I have both a 6800GT SLI rig AND a 7800GT SLI rig. Enough? No. Why? Cod2. Even with a tweaked 7800GT SLI system (venice core 3200+ running at 2.65ghz, 2gigs of ram @ 222 Mhz 2-3-3-5 2T) and getting about 14000 3DM05 I still can't run it at 1680 x 1050 on my dell 2005FP with more than about 1/2 the options on high.

With the 6800GTs I can barely run that at 1024 x 768 w/ the same settings.

So, first off, this uber system IS relevent now. And the new doom3 based engines need even MORE power for outdoor scenes. Same story w/ X3: The Reunion.

---------------------------------

With regards to little things like heat and power consumption.

Most of what I read points to around 450 to 500W total system power consumption under load and with no OC. Worst case, take that to 600W underload overvolted and OCed.

Even figuring 85% converted to heat thats only 510W in the worst case.

Without randomly throwing around radiator sizes, shouldn't be start by asking fans and CFMs so we can get a general idea about how much surface area he'll need to dissipate that much heat?

I know I've been lurking here as of late but what happened to INTELLIGENT discussion about cooling and not just random bullshit of frozen flames???

Dr_Strangelove · 12-05-2005, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempus

Without randomly throwing around radiator sizes, shouldn't be start by asking fans and CFMs so we can get a general idea about how much surface area he'll need to dissipate that much heat?

I know I've been lurking here as of late but what happened to INTELLIGENT discussion about cooling and not just random bullshit of frozen flames???

Thank you man for bringing this up! I usually do most of my forum browsing at the [H] but have heard this is the place for W/C advice. Was I wrong to assume this?

I am looking for more than the average cookie cutter response about this rad is more l337 than this one. I've read some of the articles and posts here over the years and was really hoping for more of an analytical approach to my questions.

My goal is to do this up right but I am not knowledgeable enough to make it happen without help. I was watercooling the system i just sold to pay for the upgrade, but that is small potatoes compared to how much power this new one is outputting.

So, if anyone is interested still. Let's please hear some more information that might help me make this the best solution for my needs.

ricecrispi · 12-06-2005, 12:43 AM

Well then Tempus, get 7800 gtx 512 Mb setup and you can run what ever you want.

This is a 7800 gtx 512 MB setup and not old 256 MB. Full load is 275-290 W per card
Old one used 225 watts.

285 Watt x2= 570 X 75% efficiency~ 427 Watts from both cards.
+ 115 watts from Opt
~ 542 watts in the loop.
Remove 50 watts from the loop because you are using mcw55 so it doesn't cool any ram. 500watt loop

Dual rads from swiftech is rated at max 350 watts dissipation. Want more info, look at their site. I don't know what rad or blocks you are using because you didn't list them.

Want better temps.
Pa120.2 and pa120.3 might get better temps. No conclusive data yet. Do a search by a thread done my Marci on the thermochill rads for more info.

Dr_Strangelove · 12-06-2005, 07:36 AM

As per your article: "These power numbers are measured at the wall before the PSU. "

So the card is not pulling that much power but the whole system. And according to what I read the only reason they could not measure the SLI set-up is because they were using two power supplies to run the cards themselves due to circuit breaker issues on their old wiring.

They are also using an FX57 which i believe is around 100W chip. Take into account Ram and everything else and I bet the video card is actually drawing about 150W tops under full load.

Also,

Now that you have posted something I can actually put my head around I have a question for you. I currently have the Thermochill 120.2 which is rated for how much? And if I add another 120mm Rad as per my picture what should I expect my total system Heat dissipation to be and which fans should I use for best noise/performance ratio?

TerraMex · 12-06-2005, 08:17 AM

the radiators are "rated" to a maximum value wich is usually bogus, because the relevant variables are... variable on different setups

.
it will depend on water temperature at it's intake , ambient temperatures and aiflow through it, and of course, surface area.
basically i'm saying you'll have to test it with different setups.
still say keep one loop, and add the second radiator to it.
as far as fan's go :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar

NoiseBlocker SX-2
Yate-Loon / Tricod Science / Nexus (all OEM clones of the same base fan - being the SPDL 1225S (also referred to as the 1225L by ThermalTake but not sold separately by TT).
AcoustiFan DustProof's

Those would be the best of the ultra-low noise focused fans.

Moving up in noise levels you get to the Panaflo L1A's, the Papst's, and the Sanyo-Denki's, which are the best of the moderate-power moderate-noise fans.

Perhaps a little easier to answer your question if you give an idea of a fan that you presently have which you consider is acceptable in noise level to you.

Dr_Strangelove · 12-06-2005, 09:38 AM

TERRAMEX: Ok I see you are really pushing the single loop scenario. I was wondering how much flow rates would be affected by using a dual 120 and a single 120 versus a triple 120 Rad. Is this something I need to be concerned about or will the overall surface area of Radiator to Heat source be enough.

Maybe I should mention the other specs of the System:

Pump: Swifty 655
CPU: Swifty Storm
GPUs: DD SLI

All using 1/2".

TerraMex · 12-06-2005, 10:14 AM

Quote:

I was wondering how much flow rates would be affected by using a dual 120 and a single 120 versus a triple 120 Rad.

honestly i have no numbers, but i admit that the dual+single will probably have a higher pressure loss than a triple rad, even if only because of the extra tubing. however, as you said earlier that space was an issue, and you have a mpc655, and 1/2" loop, it shouldn't be that relevant.

Tempus · 12-06-2005, 10:21 AM

And you need to remember, you fan choice will have far more impact on the overall cooling than the dual, dual + single, or triple choice.

If you have hearing protection rated fans I'm sure it will work. Ultra low noise... maybe not. IIRC you have a moderately to highly noisey setup now so a few L1As in push/pull might give you enough cooling with just the dual.

I'm not sure of the flow rate impact but I've hooked up other multi-rad configurations before and measured a drop in flow rate about a 60% increase over the impact of a single rad of the same type. But these were all tests on 3/8" systems so ymmv.

Dr_Strangelove · 12-06-2005, 10:34 AM

Well Swiftech has this chart for the L/H rating on the pump, I guess it sounds like there should be plenty of room to try to stay above the 1Gpm+ range.

Dr_Strangelove · 12-06-2005, 12:38 PM

http://www.frozencpu.com/fan-157.html

So I am going to go with these fans on both rads in pull configuration.

TerraMex · 12-06-2005, 12:49 PM

Not sure about the 38mm fan.
In a different thread, cathar ( and others ) stated that it does not compensate to have thicker fans versus the standard 25mm fan.
i have two 12v Sunon 38mm fans and they are loud suckers even at low speeds.
Same with a few others I have (including a Panaflo , but its misaligned, vibrates alot).
Suggest you get one (borrow or steal

), for testing purposes, before buying a few.

Dr_Strangelove · 12-06-2005, 05:18 PM

Hmm...good point TerraMex. I have some lower CFM Panaflos right now that I do not think are too loud so I thought these might be better.

I do have a Nexus fan controller so maybe they won't be too loud after all?

Everything I have read tells me that thicker fans are better. I need to find that discussion from Cathar and give it a good read to make up my own mind.

TerraMex · 12-07-2005, 07:26 AM

well i can't find the original post (so my comment is as it is), but it i think it was here at Procooling. I'll dig around (or my mind is playing tricks

).
There's a thread about fan's at OC.AU :

http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...3&page=1&pp=15

(you need to register)

I'm currently using a Sunbeam controller, the PWM controller (a Aerogate II) gives an annoying whine to certain fans.

Dr_Strangelove · 12-07-2005, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerraMex

I'm currently using a Sunbeam controller, the PWM controller (a Aerogate II) gives an annoying whine to certain fans.

Hmm...that is exactly what my Nexus does to one of the 120mm Panaflos. Even at half speed there is this whizzing sound.

I will head on over to OCAU today and do some reading on fans. Thanks.

TerraMex · 12-07-2005, 07:47 AM

just to point out that i swiched the two sunon 120x120x38 fans with two titan 120x120x25.
Yes, there is less flow (and resulting to less noise) but i no longer hear the fans. even at higher rpm they are much less annoying.
I would consider a tradeoff but i can't really quantify overall performance change, if any. So far, so good.

but again, suggest testing (each setup is a different setup)

.

Dr_Strangelove · 12-07-2005, 12:50 PM

Hmm....yeah I might try those fans out.

I am really looking for best noise vs perormance ratio with a slight lean towards performance.

ricecrispi · 12-07-2005, 02:42 PM

yateloon /tri cod fans with the higher rpms. silent pc review has good reviews and info on them. TEkgems 1800 rpm model I believe it was.....

These would be the best fans fo the new pa series rads because the new rads don't need as much air flow as older He series. It even seems the PA series after a certain CFM point don't get much performance improvement. Marci did the test running Panaflos Ms @ 7V and got good results. I suggest you do a search for that thread mate.

I have the M speed panaflos with hydrobearing, whatever it's called. They get a whine but it's not that bad. It's more like an air movement sound but in a case it is not that bad and better than some other fans at stock speeds. Have to align the fan and have it isolated pretty good.

Maybe because you guys are running the U high speed fan when I'm running the slower 84 cfm one?

TerraMex · 12-08-2005, 08:02 AM

Quote:

hydrobearing

http://www.casecooler.com/pa12hywabefa.html
this?
found very little info in that "wave bearing" thing. rifle?

Dr_Strangelove · 12-08-2005, 11:25 AM

I think these are the fans I am using currently. Need to check when I disassemble my water loop this weekend. MY fans have a low whine to them when running them half speed. I wonder if I got a bum one.

ricecrispi · 12-08-2005, 11:42 AM

Do you mean run them at half speed on the fan controller or @6-7V. I get the same whine at half speed of the fan controller so its the same on all fans. At the lowest controller setting, I get a hum but they won't start up consistently so I leave it at where it will startup and rig the fan controller with some screws to keep the controller from getting any lower.

My experience is these fans have a distinct point where they hum to whine to vacumn cleaner. I don't know what speed it is but I pretty much leave it at humming. It is noticablely louder than my low speed and low noise CM fans but it gets more airflow even at the lowest setting vs CM fan at stock.

With headphones on during gaming I can't hear anything so I turn the suckers up!

Dr_Strangelove · 12-08-2005, 11:58 AM

Yes Rice, you are correct on the lowes setting not working too well. My fans do this at every setting so I think something is bummed with one of em as one does it worse than the other.

I have a Nexus fan controller and it does allow me to run the fan at about 65% which seems to be the noise barrier.

Usually I don't care too much about noise anyways since I either have my headphones on or have my 5.1 cranking loud enough that I do not hear the suckers anyways.

As long as I can keep my current noise level I think I will be happy.

Dr_Strangelove · 12-11-2005, 08:36 PM

So if I just measured and decided that I actually "Do" have room for a Triple 120mm Radiator, would that be a better choice?

I currently have the Thermochill HE120.2 and was going to add a single PA 160 or other 120mm Rad.

Should I just go for the HE120.3 instead?

TerraMex · 12-12-2005, 08:32 AM

i'd go for the PA plus the one you already have , but that would depend on the space , and how much you want to spend.

billbartuska · 12-12-2005, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Strangelove

http://www.frozencpu.com/fan-157.html

So I am going to go with these fans on both rads in pull configuration.

Look at the EBM-Papst D2E133=DM67-78. (420cfm/55dba/1.6in H20). It's about as loud as the two Panaflo Medium speed FBA12G12M1A's (86.5cfm/35.5dbs/4.8mmH20) I have in another system...contrary to what papst says.
Note that 1.6inH20 = 40.64mmH2O! With a decent shroud (pic W/BIX3) it's very quiet, though expensive and/or very hard to get.

Dr_Strangelove · 12-12-2005, 08:59 PM

Wow that is a serious shroud Bill! Did you make that yourself?

12-05-2005, 10:43 PM	#26
Tempus Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 456	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? First off, while I do love how the general opinion is that a 7800GTX 512M SLI is "overkill" and "won't help" is based on nothing more than a limited experience with gaming. I have both a 6800GT SLI rig AND a 7800GT SLI rig. Enough? No. Why? Cod2. Even with a tweaked 7800GT SLI system (venice core 3200+ running at 2.65ghz, 2gigs of ram @ 222 Mhz 2-3-3-5 2T) and getting about 14000 3DM05 I still can't run it at 1680 x 1050 on my dell 2005FP with more than about 1/2 the options on high. With the 6800GTs I can barely run that at 1024 x 768 w/ the same settings. So, first off, this uber system IS relevent now. And the new doom3 based engines need even MORE power for outdoor scenes. Same story w/ X3: The Reunion. --------------------------------- With regards to little things like heat and power consumption. Most of what I read points to around 450 to 500W total system power consumption under load and with no OC. Worst case, take that to 600W underload overvolted and OCed. Even figuring 85% converted to heat thats only 510W in the worst case. Without randomly throwing around radiator sizes, shouldn't be start by asking fans and CFMs so we can get a general idea about how much surface area he'll need to dissipate that much heat? I know I've been lurking here as of late but what happened to INTELLIGENT discussion about cooling and not just random bullshit of frozen flames??? __________________ Thou art God.

12-06-2005, 12:43 AM	#28
ricecrispi Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: california Posts: 429	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? Well then Tempus, get 7800 gtx 512 Mb setup and you can run what ever you want. This is a 7800 gtx 512 MB setup and not old 256 MB. Full load is 275-290 W per card Old one used 225 watts. 285 Watt x2= 570 X 75% efficiency~ 427 Watts from both cards. + 115 watts from Opt ~ 542 watts in the loop. Remove 50 watts from the loop because you are using mcw55 so it doesn't cool any ram. 500watt loop Dual rads from swiftech is rated at max 350 watts dissipation. Want more info, look at their site. I don't know what rad or blocks you are using because you didn't list them. Want better temps. Pa120.2 and pa120.3 might get better temps. No conclusive data yet. Do a search by a thread done my Marci on the thermochill rads for more info.

12-06-2005, 07:36 AM	#29
Dr_Strangelove Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? As per your article: "These power numbers are measured at the wall before the PSU. " So the card is not pulling that much power but the whole system. And according to what I read the only reason they could not measure the SLI set-up is because they were using two power supplies to run the cards themselves due to circuit breaker issues on their old wiring. They are also using an FX57 which i believe is around 100W chip. Take into account Ram and everything else and I bet the video card is actually drawing about 150W tops under full load. Also, Now that you have posted something I can actually put my head around I have a question for you. I currently have the Thermochill 120.2 which is rated for how much? And if I add another 120mm Rad as per my picture what should I expect my total system Heat dissipation to be and which fans should I use for best noise/performance ratio?

12-06-2005, 09:38 AM	#31
Dr_Strangelove Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? TERRAMEX: Ok I see you are really pushing the single loop scenario. I was wondering how much flow rates would be affected by using a dual 120 and a single 120 versus a triple 120 Rad. Is this something I need to be concerned about or will the overall surface area of Radiator to Heat source be enough. Maybe I should mention the other specs of the System: Pump: Swifty 655 CPU: Swifty Storm GPUs: DD SLI All using 1/2".

12-06-2005, 10:21 AM	#33
Tempus Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 456	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? And you need to remember, you fan choice will have far more impact on the overall cooling than the dual, dual + single, or triple choice. If you have hearing protection rated fans I'm sure it will work. Ultra low noise... maybe not. IIRC you have a moderately to highly noisey setup now so a few L1As in push/pull might give you enough cooling with just the dual. I'm not sure of the flow rate impact but I've hooked up other multi-rad configurations before and measured a drop in flow rate about a 60% increase over the impact of a single rad of the same type. But these were all tests on 3/8" systems so ymmv. __________________ Thou art God.

12-06-2005, 10:34 AM	#34
Dr_Strangelove Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? Well Swiftech has this chart for the L/H rating on the pump, I guess it sounds like there should be plenty of room to try to stay above the 1Gpm+ range. Last edited by Dr_Strangelove; 12-06-2005 at 10:46 AM.

12-06-2005, 12:38 PM	#35
Dr_Strangelove Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? http://www.frozencpu.com/fan-157.html So I am going to go with these fans on both rads in pull configuration.

12-06-2005, 12:49 PM	#36
TerraMex Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portugal, Europe Posts: 870	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? Not sure about the 38mm fan. In a different thread, cathar ( and others ) stated that it does not compensate to have thicker fans versus the standard 25mm fan. i have two 12v Sunon 38mm fans and they are loud suckers even at low speeds. Same with a few others I have (including a Panaflo , but its misaligned, vibrates alot). Suggest you get one (borrow or steal ), for testing purposes, before buying a few. __________________ "we need more cowbell."

12-06-2005, 05:18 PM	#37
Dr_Strangelove Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? Hmm...good point TerraMex. I have some lower CFM Panaflos right now that I do not think are too loud so I thought these might be better. I do have a Nexus fan controller so maybe they won't be too loud after all? Everything I have read tells me that thicker fans are better. I need to find that discussion from Cathar and give it a good read to make up my own mind.

12-07-2005, 07:26 AM	#38
TerraMex Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portugal, Europe Posts: 870	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? well i can't find the original post (so my comment is as it is), but it i think it was here at Procooling. I'll dig around (or my mind is playing tricks ). There's a thread about fan's at OC.AU : http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...3&page=1&pp=15 (you need to register) I'm currently using a Sunbeam controller, the PWM controller (a Aerogate II) gives an annoying whine to certain fans. __________________ "we need more cowbell."

12-07-2005, 07:47 AM	#40
TerraMex Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portugal, Europe Posts: 870	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? just to point out that i swiched the two sunon 120x120x38 fans with two titan 120x120x25. Yes, there is less flow (and resulting to less noise) but i no longer hear the fans. even at higher rpm they are much less annoying. I would consider a tradeoff but i can't really quantify overall performance change, if any. So far, so good. but again, suggest testing (each setup is a different setup) . __________________ "we need more cowbell."

12-07-2005, 12:50 PM	#41
Dr_Strangelove Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? Hmm....yeah I might try those fans out. I am really looking for best noise vs perormance ratio with a slight lean towards performance.

12-07-2005, 02:42 PM	#42
ricecrispi Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: california Posts: 429	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? yateloon /tri cod fans with the higher rpms. silent pc review has good reviews and info on them. TEkgems 1800 rpm model I believe it was..... These would be the best fans fo the new pa series rads because the new rads don't need as much air flow as older He series. It even seems the PA series after a certain CFM point don't get much performance improvement. Marci did the test running Panaflos Ms @ 7V and got good results. I suggest you do a search for that thread mate. I have the M speed panaflos with hydrobearing, whatever it's called. They get a whine but it's not that bad. It's more like an air movement sound but in a case it is not that bad and better than some other fans at stock speeds. Have to align the fan and have it isolated pretty good. Maybe because you guys are running the U high speed fan when I'm running the slower 84 cfm one?

12-08-2005, 11:25 AM	#44
Dr_Strangelove Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? I think these are the fans I am using currently. Need to check when I disassemble my water loop this weekend. MY fans have a low whine to them when running them half speed. I wonder if I got a bum one.

12-08-2005, 11:42 AM	#45
ricecrispi Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: california Posts: 429	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? Do you mean run them at half speed on the fan controller or @6-7V. I get the same whine at half speed of the fan controller so its the same on all fans. At the lowest controller setting, I get a hum but they won't start up consistently so I leave it at where it will startup and rig the fan controller with some screws to keep the controller from getting any lower. My experience is these fans have a distinct point where they hum to whine to vacumn cleaner. I don't know what speed it is but I pretty much leave it at humming. It is noticablely louder than my low speed and low noise CM fans but it gets more airflow even at the lowest setting vs CM fan at stock. With headphones on during gaming I can't hear anything so I turn the suckers up!

12-08-2005, 11:58 AM	#46
Dr_Strangelove Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? Yes Rice, you are correct on the lowes setting not working too well. My fans do this at every setting so I think something is bummed with one of em as one does it worse than the other. I have a Nexus fan controller and it does allow me to run the fan at about 65% which seems to be the noise barrier. Usually I don't care too much about noise anyways since I either have my headphones on or have my 5.1 cranking loud enough that I do not hear the suckers anyways. As long as I can keep my current noise level I think I will be happy.

12-11-2005, 08:36 PM	#47
Dr_Strangelove Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? So if I just measured and decided that I actually "Do" have room for a Triple 120mm Radiator, would that be a better choice? I currently have the Thermochill HE120.2 and was going to add a single PA 160 or other 120mm Rad. Should I just go for the HE120.3 instead?

12-12-2005, 08:32 AM	#48
TerraMex Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portugal, Europe Posts: 870	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? i'd go for the PA plus the one you already have , but that would depend on the space , and how much you want to spend. __________________ "we need more cowbell."

12-12-2005, 08:59 PM	#50
Dr_Strangelove Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	Re: New High End Build...Two Loops? Wow that is a serious shroud Bill! Did you make that yourself?

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