What about internal pics of the storm?

[pHaestus]

A truly great post where everyone finds something they like! How about

Please take a look also at the WPS, a computerconnected Testingdevice specially constructed für Watercooling. The design and The Software has been developed in the kaltmacher Forum as an OpenSourceproject.
This is what i call professional testequipment.

I suppose both Bill and I have a computerconnected testingdevice too. My testing equipment wasn't specially constructed for watercooling though; by your laudatory tone I assume the specs for equipment used to test watercooling is somewhere above mil-spec but below NASA? Rosemount made the dP xmitter I own specifically for monitoring fluids being pumped around Hanford (so it's radiation resistant and heavy as hell); I guess I should have saved up for the professional equipment speced for wc...

[Cathar]

Regarding the small "fluffy" bits, this must have been caused by a somewhat blunt mill bit. Grabbed out a few other plates and they were all fine. Some had it in very small amounts. Apparantly I had just grabbed one from the box that just happened to be somewhat bad.

Here's a pic of another one - much cleaner as you can all see.

Regarding the chamfering, that's all just done by hand alignment on a drill press. It's quicker and cheaper than doing a CNC tool change. Can do by hand about 5 plates in the same time as the CNC can do one. Given that it is a hidden section of the block this is an acceptable compromise, or would people all be happier paying $1 more for a CNC to get it perfect when being perfect in this instance isn't important?

[pHaestus]

Should have never shown the good one; now everyone is going to be mad if theirs isn't perfect

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Should have never shown the good one; now everyone is going to be mad if theirs isn't perfect

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I can handle users, just not those with with a trumpet to blow. I won't be goaded into explaining the theory/reasoning, even though I know that's exactly the purpose behind davidzo's comments, suffice to say that pretty much every single thing he has said so far is totally off the mark.

[davidzo]

Don't fool me
of course is your equipment very good too, thats not what i wanted to point out.
The WPS is truly great and very practicable (time is also a factor isn't it?)
Can you give me a hint, i see no direct connection to the computer with your testbed?
Sure other testbeds are also great, but the WPS is simply practicable and has a lot of features:
- driven by a small Infineon Microprocessor on a 2layer Platine and a BIOS by Chrisbe
- connected over a serial port to the PC, Software that can regulate all values and gereates graphs automatically.
- 4x thermal sensors with a industrial precision of less than 0.1K (or you can connect also better ones, but they cost more)
- DFK (Flowcontrol with exact flowmeasurement in l/h)
- 3x Fanbus regulated by software over the pc (you can easily test 12V, 7V, 5V)
Forum for the WPS:
http://heikop.no-ip.org/phpbb/index....18652f5cc042ba


@cathar:
wow, this one looks really good, why didn't you showed us this one first?

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by davidzo

@cathar:
wow, this one looks really good, why didn't you showed us this one first?

Lack of judgement at 12:30am after being up for 18 hours. I blindly grabbed just the first plate that came out of the box.

The fluffy bits just scrape off with one's thumbnail fairly easily and I'll ensure that is done prior to assembling for the odd plate that exhibits the problem.

[BillA]

davidzo
we have a communication problem - actually only I as you are simply being evasive and manipulative

"hundreds of thousands of these connectors in successful WCing service for years"
this is experience, the repetition is only repeating it to you
and I stated our failure rate

you were asked if you have any first hand experience
you were also asked if you had a commercial interest

now that I understand you are a vendor seeking to disparage competitive products by allegation, things are more clear

"troll" is too kind by far

do you realize that NOTHING you say is credible ?

[Joe Camel]

damn, i LOVE Pro(flame)cooling

i think the saying "there are 2 sides to every story" is always true and the pic Cathar gave us only shows 1...

in-other-words: i think there is a correlation between:

1) the spacing of the jets (further apart than the cascade)
2) the reason the mid plate is thicker than the cascade's
3) why Cathar isnt showing the other side of the mid plate

[talcum]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

A truly great post where everyone finds something they like! How about



I suppose both Bill and I have a computerconnected testingdevice too. My testing equipment wasn't specially constructed for watercooling though; by your laudatory tone I assume the specs for equipment used to test watercooling is somewhere above mil-spec but below NASA? Rosemount made the dP xmitter I own specifically for monitoring fluids being pumped around Hanford (so it's radiation resistant and heavy as hell); I guess I should have saved up for the professional equipment speced for wc...

I beg your pardon. That 3497 is the same type device used at Boeing to do Space Station development and it did meet NASA spec; just not flight qual'd. And the Rosemount is a superb programmable piece of Nuclear grade equipment. Don't sell it short.

Will there be a problem with the jets clogging?

[BillA]

ahem
not European seems the failing per davidzo
there are European companies that understand thermal testing equipment, but the DIY crowd thinks to do it 'for nothing'

it starts as a quest for measurement, and quickly evolves into an imperative to control

they have not yet come to that understanding
as near as I can tell

google is effing worthless to translate technical German, I've wasted hours trying to sort out this forum http://heikop.no-ip.org/phpbb/index.php
anyone know of a comprehensive description of the "WPS" ?

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Joe Camel

damn, i LOVE Pro(flame)cooling

I'm just disappointed at what this thread has become. Prior to davidzo's appearance I was seriously about to embark on an explanation of my reasoning behind what's in the design and the decisions made, but now I have lost all desire to do so. Maybe in a few days after I get the taste of troll out of my mouth.

[9mmCensor]

Originally Posted by unregistered

ahem
not European seems the failing per davidzo
there are European companies that understand thermal testing equipment, but the DIY crowd thinks to do it 'for nothing'

it starts as a quest for measurement, and quickly evolves into an imperative to control

they have not yet come to that understanding
as near as I can tell

google is effing worthless to translate technical German, I've wasted hours trying to sort out this forum http://heikop.no-ip.org/phpbb/index.php
anyone know of a comprehensive description of the "WPS" ?

bable fish did an alright job with this page http://heikop.no-ip.org/html/wps.htm

[BillA]

yea, we've been spun on this one
I've been on something of a (hidden) push to tone down this place - and me - to try to regain some of the more genteel European geeks
and then this davidzo !

any time the pseudo technical is a front for promotion it does piss me off
the hidden bias is the killer

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by Cathar

I'm just disappointed at what this thread has become. Prior to davidzo's appearance I was seriously about to embark on an explanation of my reasoning behind what's in the design and the decisions made, but now I have lost all desire to do so. Maybe in a few days after I get the taste of troll out of my mouth.

For what it's worth, I'm interested.

PM or e-mail?

[BalefireX]

bleh - I felt bad after reading davidzo's post about the importance of seeing the middle ground, and then this... Suppose my first impressions weren't too far off.

[BillA]

9mm
I followed that pg but found no description of the heat source, or heat sink (WCing system)
did I miss a 'hot' link ?

[aaronspink]

Originally Posted by Cathar

I'm just disappointed at what this thread has become. Prior to davidzo's appearance I was seriously about to embark on an explanation of my reasoning behind what's in the design and the decisions made, but now I have lost all desire to do so. Maybe in a few days after I get the taste of troll out of my mouth.

Quick question, whats the alignment of the tubes with regard to the cups? I assume that they are centered but are they above or below the surface plane of the cups? I'm basically wondering if the tubes are partially within the cup, cutting down on the internal volume of the cup and helping to direct/accelerate the flow along the outside of the cups.

Also, I can't tell from the base photo if the cups are spherical or cylindrical.

Aaron

[snowwie]

yeah, i almost thought that the cups are hemispherical...

but it's too hard to tell...

[Etacovda]

"I'm just disappointed at what this thread has become. Prior to davidzo's appearance I was seriously about to embark on an explanation of my reasoning behind what's in the design and the decisions made, but now I have lost all desire to do so. Maybe in a few days after I get the taste of troll out of my mouth."

Dont give him the pleasure; your work is worth much more than that. Let him keep disbelieving what you know, and waste his time. Ive not enjoyed his presence ever since I saw his posts (more recently)

Hes the pure example of the kind of 'designer' i hate. Hes a disgrace to the name.

I would be interested also; I think I can see the differences in the base cups (understand the closer to true jet impingment quote now). However, I don't think its neccessary for us to know; you could write it up and pm it to those who ask, perhaps.

Might be a good idea to clean this thread up, perhaps.

[HammerSandwich]

Originally Posted by Cathar

Maybe in a few days after I get the taste of troll out of my mouth.

Perhaps some Maker's Mark would help with that.

My vote is to keep your mouth shut until Phaestus puts up his review. Numbers should benefit the quality of discussion.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by HammerSandwich

Perhaps some Maker's Mark would help with that.

My vote is to keep your mouth shut until Phaestus puts up his review. Numbers should benefit the quality of discussion.

Discovered some quality control issues with the first lot of blocks that shipped out, including the one that went to Phaestus. Managed to get all these issues resolved today, but will be sending Phaestus another block to be certain in case his block suffered from the problems.

Problems were an incorrectly machined O-ring groove that resulted in improper mating between the top and middle plates, and inconsistencies with the lapping procedure, apparantly due to the factory floor manager who i explained the job to being ill (and away) and the machinist in charge of the lapping machine not fully understanding the nature of what he was doing in this instance.

All the faulty pieces in my possession were returned, but some were likely sent out, but only to those in Australia (and Phaestus). I've offered for any Australians to return their block to be corrected at my shipping expense if they are not satisfied.

Sadly just a case of early teething issues that were caught early, corrected, and will be happily corrected for any who have the block already as required.

Phaestus will get another block sent his way on Monday.

[davidzo]

some more information about the wps:
http://www.kaltmacher.de/viewtopic.p...&highlight=wps
http://www.kaltmacher.de/viewtopic.p...&highlight=wps

The computerconnection is not a measurement for precision, thats clear, but its a advantage for usability and makes it possible to minimize the time Effort so that you can do a few more test (to sort off mounting failires, just like phaestus makes it).
The precision don't comes only with the equipment as also with the number of tests you do. The more testloups with remounting you make, the more accurate the final results are (guaranteed that the equipment is good).

@BillA The difference about you and me is, that I read through other countrys forums (with different succes ) to make man overview for myself and you aren't even able to interpretate what google or babelfish gives you in your homelanguage, thats sad


For all others:

It was not my intention to piss on anybodys feet, truly i have a high meaning of this forum and of its users (BillA included).
But there where just things, (personal offenses) that embarassed me and i reacted maybe a little too fast to that. I want to apologize for that.
I don't wanted to make this thread like this, like a battlefield of flaming, but i realized now that i did. But i think i am by far not the only one responsible for the flaming. The people which ich mean do know it theirselves who i mean.
I apologize for saying my opinion and my understanding of jet technics without being enough compromising. of course cathar is one really good cooling engineer and i believe that the storm is good, probably the best block on the market, but i am surprised that nobody understands me when i say that i expected more of a "fully new appoach". With this Statement, i don't want to clear my past statements in this thread, i only wanted to make sure, that you think the right of me.
Some people will state that I just want to take advantage as a designer of what cathar explaines about the storm and i do apologize because of that. But thats not what i want. To show you, that i had only interest in discussing my interests and not in cathars data over the storm (what he stated), i will not look in this thread the further days/weeks. To make that sure, i ask the staff if they can take away the acess for this thread from my useraccount (and ip and email and so on). Thats just to show my good Intentions and to prove that it is not correct what cathar and BillA stated about me.
I am a student and i like watercooling very much and i like to discuss about physical terms and specs of coolers. In Germany i am a very rare species, because i like highflow watercooling while everybody is doing lowflow.
With 3 friends, i wanted to produce my own waterblocks after my own schemes and calculations. We bought a very small cncmachine some time ago and then we took over a small oneman watercooling company in germany which former chief was a friend of mine and wanted to emigrate to hispania because of its health (he was suffering from a very rare illness and germany is not the best clima for that).
I do watercoolers more as a hobby, because i am studying besides and i simply do not have any plans to sell to any other market as germany. So i could definately deny it that i have any commercial interests in this deiscussion.
besides, i want to tell you that i am making mainly blocks for the german lowflowmarket and maybe later on i will try a mixture of hig- and lowflow(no fixed plans on that yet). So I am operating not in a market that is of any interest to you and highflowfans go better with the Storm or cascade.
Is that enough for you to check it that i have no commercial interests BillA?

[BillA]

davidzo
why respond to you if you are not reading ??

Swiftech sells in Europe, so when you make general allegations of connector inadequacy you are advancing your commercial interests by denigrating a competitor

your info is from a catalog, why am I not impressed ?
mine is hundreds of thousands in service w/o failures
you decline to provide actual substantiation

as I said, "troll" is too kind

as a wannabe wb designer you might refrain from dissing a product, and designer, whom you cannot equal

the word in English is 'humility'
this you can ignore when you have the world's best performing wb

re translation: translate a German page with whatever to English, then translate it back again to German
see the problem ?

[Incoherent]

Originally Posted by unregistered

re translation: translate a German page with whatever to English, then translate it back again to German
see the problem ?

That's going to keep me amused for hours Bill. What a great way to demonstrate the frustration of online translators.

The test system, the WPS, if I am reading things right contains some very good idea's in my opinion. I particularly like the heater solution of using a FET, with caveats, it is an eminently controllable method...

davidzo, could you or someone more closely involved start a thread here about it in the testing forum? I am sure there are several interested. I am going to take you at face value and assume you are not going to try and sell it or anything else to anyone, just a discussion about it's technical makeup in English rather than the strange Google-ised/babelfish version.

[davidzo]

As i said i will state anything to cathar and his storm what i haven't said. This post is just for self-defenst against the wildly flaming BillA...

So thumbs up for the good design, but is definitely nothing really spectacular....
of course cathar is one really good cooling engineer and i believe that the storm is good, probably the best block on the market...
And i think cathar is pretty good in improving an design and getting the best out of it, can't wait for the results.

So am i dissing cathars product?
Have it as a compliment that i expected a more advanced design approach from the storm because it was from cathar and i have a very high meaning of him.

Who is dissing here is you BillA!
Your are dissing me and that just because you don't like Europeans and people who criticise your god cathar.
i don't believe you with the hundreds of thousands and the pvc quick connectors, sorry. but its hard to believe that you have prooved this hundredthousands of time, that would have spend you more than a year of your life just plungin in and out and leaktesting (not to mention that a leaktest should be longer than a few minutes).

Thats a lie, there is any swiftech watercooler reseller in Germany. I was not denigrating swiftech in any way, gimme exactly the sentence where i should have done this? - You can't? Thats what I love, making loud akusations without anything behind it just to diss somebody.
My info is not from a catalog, its out of an theoretically book for pneumatics.

Why don't you learn german and read the texts yourself BillA if you are so intelligent? Than you could say you are more intelligent, but if you just don't know the competition every post to that topic is just a fool on yourself.

@Inhocerent: that is a good idea, i will open a small thread in the testing forum and maybe a moderator can move the significant posts in this thread to there to clean this thread a little up from spam...
I am not very good in english at all, but i admit it that sometimes i have to ask babelfish and maybe some missunderstandings come frome this, my ackknowledge of some english vocabs/grammatics...