Rant: Websites scared to speak truth?

[Etacovda]

Yep, of which NZ had supporting role to the states. Also, the before mentioned govt who now wants to cosy up to bush + the US who MAY end up getting in power now (yay for politics) were in power at the time.

[Tempus]

Originally Posted by pauldenton

Korea was a UN operation - in which New Zealand was also involved... (as they were in Vietnam, albiet on a tiny scale, which the UK somehow stayed out of...)
http://www.korean-war.com/newzealand.html

The UK was involved in getting the US to "help out" in Vietnam. They were just smart enough to keep their troops out of it.

Remember, the US was obsessed with the "domino" theory at this time. The popular belief was that countries would "fall" to communism one after another. The only way to stop the entire world from turning against us was to stop a link in the chain -- that link was Vietnam.

It was a bad idea. Very stupid. However most of the CIA's asian department and most of the state department's asain experts were fired after China went communist and none of them predicted it. So, the policies were made by people that knew nothing about the problem area (sound familiar *cough*)

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by Tempus

The UK was involved in getting the US to "help out" in Vietnam. They were just smart enough to keep their troops out of it.

hmm - do enlarge on this please.... as afaik UK involvement in Vietnam is limited to handing control back to the French in 1945, and persuading eisenhower not to use massive conventional bombing or tactical nukes to support the french besieged in Dien Bien Phu, then being part of the geneva accords that divided vietnam in 1954 following the french decision to withdraw....

[Tempus]

IIRC Churchill came over to the US and made a personal plea to have the US backup the French specifically in support of the colonial powers. The US was not originally inclined to make the effort but he was one persuasive guy.

But, I'll be the first to admin that my last MilArt class was almost 8 years ago and my memory is a bit rusty.

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by pauldenton

.....tactical nukes to support the french besieged in Dien Bien Phu

Aside from having the scenario wrong the tactical nuke thing is completely overboard. The only time I ever recall the use of nukes being used was when UN forces were forced into tactical withdrawal buy Chinese troops in Korea.

BTW Ike was the one who came up with the term "Military Industrial Complex"
:shrug:

Originally Posted by Tempus

IIRC Churchill came over to the US and made a personal plea to have the US backup the French specifically in support of the colonial powers. The US was not originally inclined to make the effort but he was one persuasive guy.

But, I'll be the first to admin that my last MilArt class was almost 8 years ago and my memory is a bit rusty.

Your right as a matter of fact the term "Iron Curtain" and "domino effect" was dubbed by Churchill an avid anti-communist. Churchill was certainly right about the Iron Curtain and Ike was the one who came up with the term "Military Industrial Complex." The US was telling the Europeans they had to give autonomy to all of there colonies. This was a condition of the US bailing out Europe during WWII. The British honorably kept their agreement but the French did not. Thus the US was initially content to let the French fail in Vietnam.

I think it is easy to look back and Vietnam and say the domino effect was wrong in South East Asia, hindsight is 20/20. Further, I would argue that the Domino Effects limited effect in the region (Cambodia and Laos) was due more to geography and topography than a flaw in Churchill’s view on the spread of communism.

[Tempus]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

I think it is easy to look back and Vietnam and say the domino effect was wrong in South East Asia, hindsight is 20/20. Further, I would argue that the Domino Effects limited effect in the region (Cambodia and Laos) was due more to geography and topography than a flaw in Churchill’s view on the spread of communism.

If the domino theory held water, wouldn't that have suggested that popular uprisings should occur in a region once one of the countries initially made the switch?

If so, when has that happened? I can see why they would think that -- look at how the previous era of revolutions swept the world (the US and France being the obvious major powers involved but there were a few more.) However, I think you'd expect Cuba to have kicked off something (go red-Haiti)

There is no empirical evidence that communism elicits a popular uprising. Both of the big examples (Russia and China) were military coups with a communist coverstory.

[Rusty075]

One of the basic tenents of communism is that it would spread by popular uprising. The "domino effect" was based on the theory that Lenin and Marx's ideas would actually work, ie that people "repressed" in one capitalist country would see the unbridled joy that communism brought to the "freed" people in a neighboring country, and revolt. The Domino Theory was flawed in that it gave communism too much credit: there's never been a country where the majority "asked" to become communist, it's always been forced upon them by an armed minority.

[BillA]

the "Domino Theory" I recall was that Communist states would promote revolution - most specifically in adjacent states
nothing to do with a 'popular' uprising, though such is the language of all pretenders

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Aside from having the scenario wrong the tactical nuke thing is completely overboard. The only time I ever recall the use of nukes being used was when UN forces were forced into tactical withdrawal buy Chinese troops in Korea.

http://vicpeace.ca/centre/readings/nukeuse.htm#crisis5

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Your right as a matter of fact the term "Iron Curtain" and "domino effect" was dubbed by Churchill an avid anti-communist

"Iron curtain is indeed Churchill (from his Fulton, Missouri speach in 1946, when out of office) but the "domino theory" is stricly american (and not something the UK ever subscribed to...)

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by Tempus

IIRC Churchill came over to the US and made a personal plea to have the US backup the French specifically in support of the colonial powers. The US was not originally inclined to make the effort but he was one persuasive guy.

But, I'll be the first to admin that my last MilArt class was almost 8 years ago and my memory is a bit rusty.

hmm - i doubt it as Truman began backing the French in 1950, when Churchill was still in opposition .....(after losing the "khaki" election in 1945 he didn't get back into power untill 1951 - with 4% less of the Vote than labour, but more seats...)

so though it could have been a personal request by him, it'd be like holding the USA to something that George Bush senior did during the first Clinton administration...

edited for clarity

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by pauldenton

http://vicpeace.ca/centre/readings/nukeuse.htm#crisis5

Threat of nuclear attack: Implied; U.S. nuclear-armed navy carrier force near Vietnam to launch Operation VULTURE, using atomic bombs against Viet Minh forces. The Strategic Air Command BASIC PLAN will use 735 bombers to attack the USSR and China using 1750 atomic bombs

Eisenhower: Soldier and President
Stephen E. Ambrose
New York, New York: Touchstone Books, 1991

“On the morning of April 5, Dulles called Eisenhower to inform him that the French had told [the US ambassador to Paris] that their impression was that Operation Vulture had been agreed to and hinted that they expected two or three atomic bombs to be used against the Viet Minh. Eisenhower told Dulles to tell the French ... that they must have misunderstood Radford.”

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by Tempus

However, I think you'd expect Cuba to have kicked off something (go red-Haiti)

try....

El Salvador
Nicaragua
Hondus
Note all adjacent countries

Grenada

[Dunno]

Back on subject:
Freedom of speach.
Fu@% em.
Wait for them to start spending money on the case.
Write to the Clerk of the Court. Both locally and wherever the case is supposed to be heard.
Tell them to move the case to your locality. Thats where it started.
(Make them spend)
Post everywhere.
Go to court.
Post everywhere.

Do you believe you are in trouble?

Been there. Without the Net.
Ask your lawer.

[jaydee]

Speaking of lawyers... I just got a bill from mine. $151 and hour..... That is were many websites would have issues. Not many people can afford that kind of cash up front.

[JSimmons]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Easy now Cathar political speech is protected but if the shirt was truly obscene then the airline was well within its rights to ask her to turn it inside out. I'm sure you would not want to get on a plane with your daughter and have her looking at some guy wearing a T-Shirt depicting a full color photo of Jena Jamison swallowing a turkey neck.

She swallows those too? Talent like that should never be watered down.

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by JSimmons

She swallows those too? Talent like that should never be watered down.

Bah, and not scared of the dark....my kind of woman

[maxSaleen]

**** mfg's who make bad products yet only send out review items to get good reivews and not true honest results, **** lawyers who prosecute people speaking their mind, **** those who are too scared to speak the truth, and **** any forum who puts a disclaimer telling its user base to watch its mouth.

Amen to that.

(never read that part before, that's going on the quotes section of my facebook )

[Brians256]

Originally Posted by jaydee

Speaking of lawyers... I just got a bill from mine. $151 and hour..... That is were many websites would have issues. Not many people can afford that kind of cash up front.

God's truth right there. And then, there's the up front retainer too. $150 for an initial consult and then maybe a $3000 retainer. Before any action happens and $150 to $300 per hour is consumed out of your life. All because you have to prove yourself innocent even in the US court system which proclaims "innocent until proven guilty".

[SpeedSwede]

Hey I found this thread searching for "sluts AND hos AND bitches"

I am sorely disappointed with the result, and will be suing you for false advertising

[mashie]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Aside from having the scenario wrong the tactical nuke thing is completely overboard. The only time I ever recall the use of nukes being used was when UN forces were forced into tactical withdrawal buy Chinese troops in Korea.

Wrong!

The only time (ever hopefully) nuklear bombs of any kind have been used in history was when America bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan during WWII.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

well, this is where you need lawyers who happen to be watercooling addicts, like rod (aka Weapon)
The US CONSIDERED using nukes in korea (or was it 'nam...? so hard to remember), some 46 nukes or something over parts of china and north korea (north 'nam?)
either way, it was no-noed and macarther resigned or something.

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by mashie

Wrong!

The only time (ever hopefully) nuklearNuclear (we all do it ) bombs of any kind have been used in history was when America bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan during WWII.

That was a type O. Here is the correction

Aside from having the scenario wrong the tactical nuke thing is completely overboard. The only time I ever recall the talk of nukes being used was when UN forces were forced into tactical withdrawal by Chinese troops in Korea.

General Macarthur (the commander of UN Forces) was a vocal proponent of using Atomic weapons during the initial stages of the war.

President Truman also threatened to use nukes during a press conference on November 30, 1950.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by Brians256

God's truth right there. And then, there's the up front retainer too. $150 for an initial consult and then maybe a $3000 retainer. Before any action happens and $150 to $300 per hour is consumed out of your life. All because you have to prove yourself innocent even in the US court system which proclaims "innocent until proven guilty".

eh ?
wrt libel ? (using a legal dictionary)
there is 'libel' which is a bear to prove, and 'libel per se' which generally leaves the defendant with no (effective) defense
very interesting stuff, now taking lessons
no problem for site owners, but . . . .

[Tempus]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

That was a type O. Here is the correction

Aside from having the scenario wrong the tactical nuke thing is completely overboard. The only time I ever recall the talk of nukes being used was when UN forces were forced into tactical withdrawal by Chinese troops in Korea.

General Macarthur (the commander of UN Forces) was a vocal proponent of using Atomic weapons during the initial stages of the war.

President Truman also threatened to use nukes during a press conference on November 30, 1950.

Thats more because Mac thought he was the shit and could do whatever he wanted. He threatened to use nukes (w/out permission) then went back to washington to tell Truman he was going to use nukes. Truman said no. They got into quite a row over the whole ordeal. Mac went to the press and tried to get public opinion against Truman (rumor is he actually wanted to be president later on.) Truman forced his resignation over the whole thing.

They also considered using 1 and 5k tactical nukes in Vietnam, and in the first desert storm.

We actually had nukes in the MLRS in DS1 because we assumed Saddam had some, was going to use them. One of the contingence senarios involved our response if they had buried nukes in the desert and used them during our advance from Kuwait.

[Brians256]

Originally Posted by unregistered

eh ?
wrt libel ? (using a legal dictionary)
there is 'libel' which is a bear to prove, and 'libel per se' which generally leaves the defendant with no (effective) defense
very interesting stuff, now taking lessons
no problem for site owners, but . . . .

I was talking about lawyer fees in general and about our justice system. This is a personal matter unrelated to ProCooling and is currently under litigation. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but accusations are hard to extinguish."