Dual Pump Idea - Page 3

Joe Camel · 03-26-2004, 08:35 AM

id rather keep that "hush hush" till i get it in my hot little hands. dont really want y'all out "bidding" me. (no, not e(BS)bay)

side note:
this whole concept of diminishing returns from added pump heat has (in my mind) an interesting parallel. anyone who mods/OCs cars (only) would think we were talking about boost (turbo/superchargers). where if you put TOO much pressure (and heat from the "pump") you get something called Knock (a pre ignition in the chamber due to heat/pressure) now honestly, i "know" almost as little about cars as i do WC so i may (will) be a little off, but i think youll get the idea. now the car industry has solved this with: knock retard (changing the timing), lower boost, and or Intercoolers (which are A LOT like our cooling loops but with 2 rads vs WB & rad) i dont know how this will help, but i like to "see" how a problem was "solved" in situations that are very different but have a common "core" ...
ya, i have a car with a suercharger. and ya, ive moded it

now, back to dual loops & pumps...

myv65 · 03-26-2004, 12:52 PM

Well, now you're getting a bit off topic, but I'll toss a couple of considerations out on air as it relates to engines. I'm guessing you know pretty much all that follows, but somebody may pick up something of interest.

When you compress air, the temperature of the air increases. An intercooler merely cools that "heat of compression", thus increasing its density. Higher density means more mass per volume. Since combustion relies on a chemical reaction between fuel and air, more mass means more combustion/power.

A piston also compresses the vapor in the cylinder. In a normal engine, the air enters the cylinder under atmospheric pressure. Add a turbocharger and more air will enter, as the air is compressed to higher than atmospheric pressure. Add an intercooler and even more air mass will enter the cylinder. The turbo and intercooler affect the overall compression ratio by feeding the cylinder air of a higher density than ambient atmospheric air.

Some folks not knowing any better will add a turbo (with or without intercooler) to their engine to develop more power. One problem is that this changes the engine's overall compression ratio and the compression of the turbo gets multiplied by the compression of the piston. As you've noted, this can create pre-ignition and places a heckuva lot more stress on the engine components. Hence the need to beef up crank components and often increase the combustion volume (shorter stroke, etc.).

Anyway, the intercooler works because the "hot" air it sees has been compressed by a turbocharger and it can use ambient air to cool it. The analogy with water cooling is to have sufficient radiator area and air flow to cool the fluid as close to ambient as possible. Locating the radiator immediately ahead of the block theoretically gives the coolest possible fluid to the chip, but often this is not how things really pan out. The real key is providing the coolest air possible to the radiator and keeping the fluid runs reasonably straight and short. Putting the radiator right ahead of the chip is no good if that means passing warm case air over it.

It isn't quite the same as an intercooler, either, as at any reasonable flow rate the temperature of fluid in the loop just doesn't change much. At 50 gph, water can absorb over 150 watts with less than 1°C temperature rise. Changes like that are quite small compared to the delta_T you'll often find between ambient air and the air inside a case.

Joe Camel · 03-26-2004, 11:43 PM

man-o-man. another 8.5 hours of reading today... my head is really swimming.

ive got to say this was more "fun" when (i thought) i knew what i was talking about... i hope it will become "fun" again after (if) i do.

its a little frustrating to read the same things over and over (said in slightly different ways) and still not be able to SEE IT! (must be frustrating to have to try to come up with different ways to say the same thing over and over... much sympathy: billA, Cathar, pHaestus, 8-ball, Since87, Les, etc)

i know the concept is within my "ability" to grasp (dead head or not) but the math behind what is happening seems to be out of (my) reach.

can someone suggest a thread or a page or a book where i can SEE the actual calculation (with real numbers NOT variables) of a working loop? maybe if i SEE an example i can "reverse engineer" an understanding.

NEVER MIND! i dove into "Water Cooling Simulator Discussion" and i think ill just stick to the bliss of ignorance.
y'all are sooo far ahead of me i couldnt catch up if my life depended on it. trial and error is what ive got to work with, period.

i didnt really want to jack this thread and make it the "help Joe Camel see" thread, but i guess i already did... flame off...

PS GOOD LUCK with that simulator (youve come a LONG way, my hats off to ya!!)

.

Maximilium · 03-28-2004, 04:57 AM

Here is what i got on my computer now

Joe Camel · 03-28-2004, 07:57 AM

good temps? (4 rads...wow)

can we see the whole thing?

EDIT: to see whole thing click the link (duh)
2nd EDIT: cant "see" the rads. where did you hide them?

Maximilium · 03-28-2004, 12:46 PM

here is how it looks, i just finish this weekend with this project.

About the temperatures:

First read this
Official update for the P4 motherboards temp issue
IC7 MAX3 Temerature survey

My Motherboard temperatures so far with sys @23c on idle are 34c, at full idle they get around 40C. Abit P4 Motherboard temperatures are not "actual temps", they are calculated and the end result is 8C to 10C above the real temperature.

Joe Camel · 04-06-2004, 05:48 PM

whelp, its time for an update:

ive changed my 2 loop into a 1 loop.
here is a pic of the 2 loop box:

OLD:

NEW:

so i took out the Little giant and the res. so i now have:
1x Mag3,
2x rads (parallel),
1x WW,
1x T,
back to pump.

guess what...

1) i cant keep the same OC (had to lower to 220x11 to be stable)

2) @ this lower OC, my temps are 7C HIGHER (10 hour ceramique TIM)

ive remounted the WB 3 times and have the same results.

needless to say, i will be going back to a 2loop.

bigben2k · 04-06-2004, 06:06 PM

Your next step is to upgrade to some serious fannage.

Think "blower"...

Joe Camel · 04-06-2004, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigben2k

Your next step is to upgrade to some serious fannage.

Think "blower"...

next updates will be; back to 2 loops with: Cascade (5/8" barbs), 4x Torin blowers (@24V), DD's D4 pump (@16V), 2 new BIGGER rads (5/8" barbs)...

(all shipping now)

bigben2k · 04-07-2004, 10:34 AM

Yeah baby!

Joe Camel · 04-10-2004, 05:17 PM

the evolution continues....

GONE are the (3) 120mm Nidec's (LOUD)
IN are the (4) Torin blowers. (@24V)

GONE is the Little Giant (Mag4ish)
IN is the Laing D4. (@12V...16V PSU didnt come yet.)

GONE are the 2 diff rads.
IN are the 2 (WA2's) rads.

temps have only gone down 1C...

but the TIM is only 20 min old.

all in all im less than impressed, i was hoping for better performance. But on the noise side...i can hear my SmartFan2 on my "air rig" again so for that alone, i am VERY HAPPY!!

EDIT: i may look like the blowers are taped in, but there are 4 screws per blower under the tape

(yes, thats ALL 5/8" tube and barbs)

bigben2k · 04-11-2004, 12:20 PM

The small diameter of the blower is going to prevent you from getting some serious performance here.

Can you get the specs for them? Compare to a 4" or 5 1/4" Comair Rotron Diplomat blower.

The automotive blower at 5 volts is going to start making a lot of sense, soon...

Joe Camel · 04-11-2004, 10:25 PM

here are the stats:

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...tname=electric

im running them @ 24V

edit: i need to take a break from this and get some stuff done in RL (RealLife

)but once i get a chance, ill be trying the rads in series...swaping in the 16v PSU will be too easy. i wont even have to drain the thing.

bigben2k · 04-12-2004, 12:27 PM

Hum... these fans look quite interesting! Any idea on noise yet?

Joe Camel · 04-12-2004, 10:31 PM

their all the rage over @ oc.com, here is one of MANY threads on them:
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.p...hreadid=257923

now i have 5 of them; these 4 and 1 mounted on a SP-97 in my "air-rig".

Cathar · 04-12-2004, 11:30 PM

May want to consider putting the radiators in flow-series there Joe_Camel, if you haven't already tried it. Of course, the success of such is unique to the flow/performance characteristics of your radiators, but for me I definitely saw a (small) benefit from going to my radiators in flow-series from flow-parallel.

03-26-2004, 08:35 AM	#51
Joe Camel Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ohio Posts: 51	id rather keep that "hush hush" till i get it in my hot little hands. dont really want y'all out "bidding" me. (no, not e(BS)bay) side note: this whole concept of diminishing returns from added pump heat has (in my mind) an interesting parallel. anyone who mods/OCs cars (only) would think we were talking about boost (turbo/superchargers). where if you put TOO much pressure (and heat from the "pump") you get something called Knock (a pre ignition in the chamber due to heat/pressure) now honestly, i "know" almost as little about cars as i do WC so i may (will) be a little off, but i think youll get the idea. now the car industry has solved this with: knock retard (changing the timing), lower boost, and or Intercoolers (which are A LOT like our cooling loops but with 2 rads vs WB & rad) i dont know how this will help, but i like to "see" how a problem was "solved" in situations that are very different but have a common "core" ... ya, i have a car with a suercharger. and ya, ive moded it now, back to dual loops & pumps... __________________ JoeCamel is F@H for ....A CURE!! (40+ GHz) A64 Phase cooled: FX-55 @ 3204MHz (267x12) - MSI Neo2 - MachII - OCZ DDR Booster & VX @ 3.6V , 267 @ 2,2,2,5 1:1 - x800 XT-PE @ 665/608 - DD Maze4 with 172w TEC 14V TEC PSU - 500W X-Connect PSU A64 Water cooled: 3500 Venice @ 3000MHz (300x10) - DFI LP Ultra-D - Storm G5, D4 pump @ 16V, BIXII, 4x100+ CFM fans - OCZ VX @ 3.6V , 300 5:6 = 250 @ 2,2,2,6 - x850 XT @ 600/630 - socket A HSF & 80mm Tornado , copper mem sinks - OCZ 600W PSU

03-26-2004, 11:43 PM	#53
Joe Camel Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ohio Posts: 51	man-o-man. another 8.5 hours of reading today... my head is really swimming. ive got to say this was more "fun" when (i thought) i knew what i was talking about... i hope it will become "fun" again after (if) i do. its a little frustrating to read the same things over and over (said in slightly different ways) and still not be able to SEE IT! (must be frustrating to have to try to come up with different ways to say the same thing over and over... much sympathy: billA, Cathar, pHaestus, 8-ball, Since87, Les, etc) i know the concept is within my "ability" to grasp (dead head or not) but the math behind what is happening seems to be out of (my) reach. can someone suggest a thread or a page or a book where i can SEE the actual calculation (with real numbers NOT variables) of a working loop? maybe if i SEE an example i can "reverse engineer" an understanding. NEVER MIND! i dove into "Water Cooling Simulator Discussion" and i think ill just stick to the bliss of ignorance. y'all are sooo far ahead of me i couldnt catch up if my life depended on it. trial and error is what ive got to work with, period. i didnt really want to jack this thread and make it the "help Joe Camel see" thread, but i guess i already did... flame off... PS GOOD LUCK with that simulator (youve come a LONG way, my hats off to ya!!) . __________________ JoeCamel is F@H for ....A CURE!! (40+ GHz) A64 Phase cooled: FX-55 @ 3204MHz (267x12) - MSI Neo2 - MachII - OCZ DDR Booster & VX @ 3.6V , 267 @ 2,2,2,5 1:1 - x800 XT-PE @ 665/608 - DD Maze4 with 172w TEC 14V TEC PSU - 500W X-Connect PSU A64 Water cooled: 3500 Venice @ 3000MHz (300x10) - DFI LP Ultra-D - Storm G5, D4 pump @ 16V, BIXII, 4x100+ CFM fans - OCZ VX @ 3.6V , 300 5:6 = 250 @ 2,2,2,6 - x850 XT @ 600/630 - socket A HSF & 80mm Tornado , copper mem sinks - OCZ 600W PSU

03-28-2004, 04:57 AM	#54
Maximilium Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 68	Here is what i got on my computer now __________________ Maximilium

03-28-2004, 07:57 AM	#55
Joe Camel Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ohio Posts: 51	schweeeet! good temps? (4 rads...wow) can we see the whole thing? EDIT: to see whole thing click the link (duh) 2nd EDIT: cant "see" the rads. where did you hide them? __________________ JoeCamel is F@H for ....A CURE!! (40+ GHz) A64 Phase cooled: FX-55 @ 3204MHz (267x12) - MSI Neo2 - MachII - OCZ DDR Booster & VX @ 3.6V , 267 @ 2,2,2,5 1:1 - x800 XT-PE @ 665/608 - DD Maze4 with 172w TEC 14V TEC PSU - 500W X-Connect PSU A64 Water cooled: 3500 Venice @ 3000MHz (300x10) - DFI LP Ultra-D - Storm G5, D4 pump @ 16V, BIXII, 4x100+ CFM fans - OCZ VX @ 3.6V , 300 5:6 = 250 @ 2,2,2,6 - x850 XT @ 600/630 - socket A HSF & 80mm Tornado , copper mem sinks - OCZ 600W PSU Last edited by Joe Camel; 03-28-2004 at 08:29 AM.

03-28-2004, 12:46 PM	#56
Maximilium Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 68	here is how it looks, i just finish this weekend with this project. About the temperatures: First read this Official update for the P4 motherboards temp issue IC7 MAX3 Temerature survey My Motherboard temperatures so far with sys @23c on idle are 34c, at full idle they get around 40C. Abit P4 Motherboard temperatures are not "actual temps", they are calculated and the end result is 8C to 10C above the real temperature. __________________ Maximilium

03-26-2004, 12:52 PM	#52
myv65 Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: home Posts: 365	Well, now you're getting a bit off topic, but I'll toss a couple of considerations out on air as it relates to engines. I'm guessing you know pretty much all that follows, but somebody may pick up something of interest. When you compress air, the temperature of the air increases. An intercooler merely cools that "heat of compression", thus increasing its density. Higher density means more mass per volume. Since combustion relies on a chemical reaction between fuel and air, more mass means more combustion/power. A piston also compresses the vapor in the cylinder. In a normal engine, the air enters the cylinder under atmospheric pressure. Add a turbocharger and more air will enter, as the air is compressed to higher than atmospheric pressure. Add an intercooler and even more air mass will enter the cylinder. The turbo and intercooler affect the overall compression ratio by feeding the cylinder air of a higher density than ambient atmospheric air. Some folks not knowing any better will add a turbo (with or without intercooler) to their engine to develop more power. One problem is that this changes the engine's overall compression ratio and the compression of the turbo gets multiplied by the compression of the piston. As you've noted, this can create pre-ignition and places a heckuva lot more stress on the engine components. Hence the need to beef up crank components and often increase the combustion volume (shorter stroke, etc.). Anyway, the intercooler works because the "hot" air it sees has been compressed by a turbocharger and it can use ambient air to cool it. The analogy with water cooling is to have sufficient radiator area and air flow to cool the fluid as close to ambient as possible. Locating the radiator immediately ahead of the block theoretically gives the coolest possible fluid to the chip, but often this is not how things really pan out. The real key is providing the coolest air possible to the radiator and keeping the fluid runs reasonably straight and short. Putting the radiator right ahead of the chip is no good if that means passing warm case air over it. It isn't quite the same as an intercooler, either, as at any reasonable flow rate the temperature of fluid in the loop just doesn't change much. At 50 gph, water can absorb over 150 watts with less than 1°C temperature rise. Changes like that are quite small compared to the delta_T you'll often find between ambient air and the air inside a case.

04-06-2004, 05:48 PM	#57
Joe Camel Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ohio Posts: 51	whelp, its time for an update: ive changed my 2 loop into a 1 loop. here is a pic of the 2 loop box: OLD: NEW: so i took out the Little giant and the res. so i now have: 1x Mag3, 2x rads (parallel), 1x WW, 1x T, back to pump. guess what... 1) i cant keep the same OC (had to lower to 220x11 to be stable) 2) @ this lower OC, my temps are 7C HIGHER (10 hour ceramique TIM) ive remounted the WB 3 times and have the same results. needless to say, i will be going back to a 2loop. __________________ JoeCamel is F@H for ....A CURE!! (40+ GHz) A64 Phase cooled: FX-55 @ 3204MHz (267x12) - MSI Neo2 - MachII - OCZ DDR Booster & VX @ 3.6V , 267 @ 2,2,2,5 1:1 - x800 XT-PE @ 665/608 - DD Maze4 with 172w TEC 14V TEC PSU - 500W X-Connect PSU A64 Water cooled: 3500 Venice @ 3000MHz (300x10) - DFI LP Ultra-D - Storm G5, D4 pump @ 16V, BIXII, 4x100+ CFM fans - OCZ VX @ 3.6V , 300 5:6 = 250 @ 2,2,2,6 - x850 XT @ 600/630 - socket A HSF & 80mm Tornado , copper mem sinks - OCZ 600W PSU Last edited by Joe Camel; 04-07-2004 at 07:13 AM.

04-06-2004, 06:06 PM	#58
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Your next step is to upgrade to some serious fannage. Think "blower"... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

04-07-2004, 10:34 AM	#60
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Yeah baby! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

04-10-2004, 05:17 PM	#61
Joe Camel Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ohio Posts: 51	the evolution continues.... GONE are the (3) 120mm Nidec's (LOUD) IN are the (4) Torin blowers. (@24V) GONE is the Little Giant (Mag4ish) IN is the Laing D4. (@12V...16V PSU didnt come yet.) GONE are the 2 diff rads. IN are the 2 (WA2's) rads. temps have only gone down 1C... but the TIM is only 20 min old. all in all im less than impressed, i was hoping for better performance. But on the noise side...i can hear my SmartFan2 on my "air rig" again so for that alone, i am VERY HAPPY!! EDIT: i may look like the blowers are taped in, but there are 4 screws per blower under the tape (yes, thats ALL 5/8" tube and barbs) __________________ JoeCamel is F@H for ....A CURE!! (40+ GHz) A64 Phase cooled: FX-55 @ 3204MHz (267x12) - MSI Neo2 - MachII - OCZ DDR Booster & VX @ 3.6V , 267 @ 2,2,2,5 1:1 - x800 XT-PE @ 665/608 - DD Maze4 with 172w TEC 14V TEC PSU - 500W X-Connect PSU A64 Water cooled: 3500 Venice @ 3000MHz (300x10) - DFI LP Ultra-D - Storm G5, D4 pump @ 16V, BIXII, 4x100+ CFM fans - OCZ VX @ 3.6V , 300 5:6 = 250 @ 2,2,2,6 - x850 XT @ 600/630 - socket A HSF & 80mm Tornado , copper mem sinks - OCZ 600W PSU

04-11-2004, 12:20 PM	#62
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	The small diameter of the blower is going to prevent you from getting some serious performance here. Can you get the specs for them? Compare to a 4" or 5 1/4" Comair Rotron Diplomat blower. The automotive blower at 5 volts is going to start making a lot of sense, soon... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

04-11-2004, 10:25 PM	#63
Joe Camel Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ohio Posts: 51	here are the stats: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...tname=electric im running them @ 24V edit: i need to take a break from this and get some stuff done in RL (RealLife )but once i get a chance, ill be trying the rads in series...swaping in the 16v PSU will be too easy. i wont even have to drain the thing. __________________ JoeCamel is F@H for ....A CURE!! (40+ GHz) A64 Phase cooled: FX-55 @ 3204MHz (267x12) - MSI Neo2 - MachII - OCZ DDR Booster & VX @ 3.6V , 267 @ 2,2,2,5 1:1 - x800 XT-PE @ 665/608 - DD Maze4 with 172w TEC 14V TEC PSU - 500W X-Connect PSU A64 Water cooled: 3500 Venice @ 3000MHz (300x10) - DFI LP Ultra-D - Storm G5, D4 pump @ 16V, BIXII, 4x100+ CFM fans - OCZ VX @ 3.6V , 300 5:6 = 250 @ 2,2,2,6 - x850 XT @ 600/630 - socket A HSF & 80mm Tornado , copper mem sinks - OCZ 600W PSU Last edited by Joe Camel; 04-11-2004 at 10:52 PM.

04-12-2004, 12:27 PM	#64
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Hum... these fans look quite interesting! Any idea on noise yet? __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

04-12-2004, 10:31 PM	#65
Joe Camel Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ohio Posts: 51	their all the rage over @ oc.com, here is one of MANY threads on them: http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.p...hreadid=257923 now i have 5 of them; these 4 and 1 mounted on a SP-97 in my "air-rig". __________________ JoeCamel is F@H for ....A CURE!! (40+ GHz) A64 Phase cooled: FX-55 @ 3204MHz (267x12) - MSI Neo2 - MachII - OCZ DDR Booster & VX @ 3.6V , 267 @ 2,2,2,5 1:1 - x800 XT-PE @ 665/608 - DD Maze4 with 172w TEC 14V TEC PSU - 500W X-Connect PSU A64 Water cooled: 3500 Venice @ 3000MHz (300x10) - DFI LP Ultra-D - Storm G5, D4 pump @ 16V, BIXII, 4x100+ CFM fans - OCZ VX @ 3.6V , 300 5:6 = 250 @ 2,2,2,6 - x850 XT @ 600/630 - socket A HSF & 80mm Tornado , copper mem sinks - OCZ 600W PSU Last edited by Joe Camel; 04-14-2004 at 05:01 PM.

04-12-2004, 11:30 PM	#66
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	May want to consider putting the radiators in flow-series there Joe_Camel, if you haven't already tried it. Of course, the success of such is unique to the flow/performance characteristics of your radiators, but for me I definitely saw a (small) benefit from going to my radiators in flow-series from flow-parallel.

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