Knock off LRWW, I think @ ebay - Page 2

winewood · 08-08-2003, 04:42 PM

Quote:

he still owns a implied copyright on it. The work is still his property, and therefore ripping it is illegal, and he could possibly be sued for copyright infringement, even though it is not an actual registered copyright.

LOL!!! where do you come up with this stuff? implied copyright? copyright infringement off something not actually copyrighted?

Thats like someone calling the cops saying their car is being stolen becuase it was "impied" that you owned it last year.

mastermind2004 · 08-08-2003, 04:55 PM

Actually he is wrong - I know from work experience in the US and UK that anything released that you can prove is your own work is automatically your intellectual property and copyright ownership is therefore autmatically yours

He is in breach of implied copyright (a little different from actual copyright and admittedly harder to enforce) so the best way to deal with him is spread the word without slandering him. People are free to make up their own minds and will invariably igonre his work in the knowledge that some of it was actually stolen - people like him are looking for exposure but are not prepared to work for it, so give it to him

Were this not the case, then anything and everything on the Internet could be owned by anyone who chose to steal it, which of course we all know simply isnt the case LOL.
_________________
This is from a very reliable source, and I know for a fact that he is being entirely honest with this. Link Here:
http://www.deezire.net/modules.php?n...t=3846&start=0

jaydee · 08-08-2003, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winewood
LOL!!! where do you come up with this stuff? implied copyright? copyright infringement off something not actually copyrighted?

Thats like someone calling the cops saying their car is being stolen becuase it was "impied" that you owned it last year.

Does "impied" mean being pied?

Copyright info:
http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/license.html

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wci

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyrigh...iew/index.html

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

http://www.whatiscopyright.org/

Interesting Stuff. Not sure any of it really applies here though. It might cover using Cathars ACAD drawing though.

Patent info: http://www.uspto.gov/

winewood · 08-08-2003, 05:42 PM

First you have to understand public domain. Cathar released many pre final concept ideas in the forum. This was contructed with critisism and suggestions from several parties. Proving this was a single inventor is/will be impossible. Since nothing more than a design patent could ever be issued and not a concept patent... those takes 1-3 years to establish.
Federally you have to include all inventing parties on the patent application. Knowing this wouldn't hold up with all the posts out there of others contributing and the entire project being in public domain... goood luuuck. Any later party could contest the patent at any time. That just makes it impossible to claim in entireity as ones own.

Quote:

anything released that you can prove is your own work is automatically your intellectual property and copyright ownership is therefore autmatically yours

Okey dokey.. since this isn't one persons work, already released into public domain you have a snowballs chance in hades of sending anything more than a scary letter to the guy.
NOW lets consider that this guy may make <$1,000 US for his trouble. Involvement with a lawyer would cost $150 per response with a court fee of 15k minimum to fight this. Having no money on the infringers side makes him judgement proof. Therefore a win wouldn't be a win... but a rediculous waste of cash.
No you aren't automatically copyrighted. You must submit the proper forms.. look at THIS LINK

Look, I am rooting for Cathar more than you could ever know. The guys a brain trust and makes wonderful contributions to the level that he could not ever be compensated enough. However, this "I wanna protect his ideas" outside of reality, common sense, and basic understanding of public domain it just not a healthy expenditure of time and talents. If I wanted to produce a LWRR looking block, I am only limited by my laziness on walking to the machine shop and placing an order. Cathar is truly lucky to have such a loyal following, and passionate protectors. Keep trying, but it only makes an interesting read in the long run.

Quote:

Does "impied" mean being pied?

holy scmoley.. curse my inability to spel.

jaydee · 08-08-2003, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winewood
First you have to understand public domain. Cathar released many pre final concept ideas in the forum. This was contructed with critisism and suggestions from several parties. Proving this was a single inventor is/will be impossible. Since nothing more than a design patent could ever be issued and not a concept patent... those takes 1-3 years to establish.
Federally you have to include all inventing parties on the patent application. Knowing this wouldn't hold up with all the posts out there of others contributing and the entire project being in public domain... goood luuuck. Any later party could contest the patent at any time. That just makes it impossible to claim in entireity as ones own.

Okey dokey.. since this isn't one persons work, already released into public domain you have a snowballs chance in hades of sending anything more than a scary letter to the guy.
NOW lets consider that this guy may make <$1,000 US for his trouble. Involvement with a lawyer would cost $150 per response with a court fee of 15k minimum to fight this. Having no money on the infringers side makes him judgement proof. Therefore a win wouldn't be a win... but a rediculous waste of cash.
No you aren't automatically copyrighted. You must submit the proper forms.. look at THIS LINK

Look, I am rooting for Cathar more than you could ever know. The guys a brain trust and makes wonderful contributions to the level that he could not ever be compensated enough. However, this "I wanna protect his ideas" outside of reality, common sense, and basic understanding of public domain it just not a healthy expenditure of time and talents. If I wanted to produce a LWRR looking block, I am only limited by my laziness on walking to the machine shop and placing an order. Cathar is truly lucky to have such a loyal following, and passionate protectors. Keep trying, but it only makes an interesting read in the long run.

holy scmoley.. curse my inability to spel.

My speellling sucks to, but it had quotation marks around it, couldn't resist an imature cheap shot at your expense.

As for the rest of your post I would partially agree. I think maybe you are mixing up the White Water with the Cascade some though as I do not remember a lot of outside help on the White Water but certainly do with the Cascade and he even stated it in his threads.

But putting aside the copyright issues he is still blatently lieing in his advertizment. That block is not the "BEST" for "ANY" water cooling setup. In fact he could cause damage with this statment if someone bought it for a hot TEC and it couldn't keep up and ended up frying the CPU. Or if someone bought it to replace a Koolance stock block and ended up raising temps because the extreamly low flow pump on the Koolance.

It is unfortunate this kind of BS happens on e-bay and e-bay has all these little disclaimers and TOS thay protect them from this. E-bay probably doesn't give a rats ass aslong as they can't be sued for it. Hell the guys other auctions are porn and illegal porn in some places to boot.

Oh well, I feel it is our job as water cooling hobbiest's to stand by the ligitimate people like Cathar and hammer the illigitimate people like to fool on E-bay. They only harm our hobby.

Blackeagle · 08-08-2003, 07:54 PM

Wow.

The extra fin was to me the most glaring differance. I didn't post on any others I saw as I havn't followed what D-Tek has done with the LRWW design as far as changes beyond having a Lexan or aluminum top on it.

Reading this there are several other differances that I didn't see prior to posting as well as a couple that I knew wern't the same as the original Cathar LRWW block.

Nihksub1,

A fine job a O/C's.

Rayman2k2 · 08-08-2003, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by unregistered
as did I

not sure if you have done anything yet, but you should change that link to a nasty pic

Blackeagle · 08-08-2003, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rayman2k2
not sure if you have done anything yet, but you should change that link to a nasty pic

I like your thinking! But how about if Bill were to offer a brief opinion of this guys "wonderfull" new block?

Somehow I think that might be better than a picture! And Bill might be able to convince JoeC to go along with it!

The guy deserves a few helpfull tips form Bill for his hard work and marketing efforts!

Edit:

The use of his own posted link to undo his little scam appeals to me. True justice!

jaydee · 08-08-2003, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rayman2k2
not sure if you have done anything yet, but you should change that link to a nasty pic

Hehehehe, I would change all the results to show the block is the worst thing ever made, and then make a new link to the original page of the real White Water to show how good Cathars is compared to the POS on e-bay.

Two can play the misleading game!

BillA · 08-08-2003, 09:21 PM

slight problem fellows
the scammer linked to Joe's posting of the article, not my site
and Joe (or Ed) is NOT going to let me jerk around with their site

besides, if I have not tested it what can I state as fact ?
no more than what has been repeated here many times now

Cathar · 08-09-2003, 12:55 AM

I haven't responded until now because I was carefully weighing up how to respond to this. I think the following best explains how I feel about "fly-by-night copy-cats". I'll include an assessment of the design "copy" from what I can see of it.

Perhaps the most important aspect to any mini/micro channel block is the ability to be able to open it up and clean it. These blocks are prone to clogging if the user does not take adequate precautions. If setup properly, they can run for many months, or even years, without issues. If the user is careless though and adds dirty lint-filled water to their setup, clogging may be an issue, and this is something that the user must be able to easily remedy otherwise they'll end up with a poorly performing clogged block that they cannot fix.

The O-ring is cheap, but it does add production time to implement it, but it is one of the most important aspects to look for when considering purchasing a fine channelled block. If you can't easily pull the block apart to clean it, then it may only be a matter of time before the well-performing block you bought turns into a clogged and poorly performing albatross.

Losing the O-ring and sealing the block up tight is one of the first things that "cheap" implementations will do in order to cut costs. The use of an O-ring also allows for the all-important top portion of the block to mate adequately with the tops of the fins to prevent the base-plate from bowing under mounting pressure as a properly implemented block of the WW design will have an extremely thin base-plate in order to realise its full performance potential. If a gasket is instead used, then there is the risk of the base-plate bowing, and the water is also not forced to flow down the channels, but instead can flow over the top, because the gasket creates a gap between the base-plate and the upper portions of the block.

These are just some of the considerations that cheap-skate copy-cats will skim over and dismiss in their rush to make a "cheap imitation".

In short, if you want guaranteed quality and design that incorporates all of the reasons for why the design works and exists as it should, and an implementation that will last for a long time, then there really is only one choice.

Fly-by-nighters aren't hurting me or DTek much, because the people who wanted to buy the cheap imitation would probably never have considered paying extra for the proper quality item. These fly-by-nighters are really hurting who matters most, and that is the consumer. What after-market support is there? Will a block be replaced if there are issues? What about after-market parts to allow the block to be adapted to upcoming CPU socket technologies?

A consumer has to ask themselves just what they're giving up by paying $25 less and whether they're really doing themselves a long-term favor, or just buying into a "throw-away" item that is made by someone who's only intention is to make money off someone else's design, but don't truly understand why the design was made the way it was and decided to cut corners.

joemac · 08-09-2003, 04:42 AM

Quote:

And technically, even though the design was made in the public domain he still owns a implied copyright on it. The work is still his property, and therefore ripping it is illegal, and he could possibly be sued for copyright infringement, even though it is not an actual registered copyright.

Ahh - NOP

Joe · 08-09-2003, 10:29 AM

Caught this thread a lil late, but later today I will put a lil blurb of this up on the front page.

Brians256 · 08-09-2003, 10:49 AM

I just posted something in my worklog about this because I didn't see you weighing in on it yet, Joe. Oh well, it never hurts to have multiple notifications on something like this.

LiquidRulez · 08-09-2003, 09:13 PM

I sent this guy several Emails asking him if he had explicit permission to replicate the WW in any way, shape , or form ........permission given to him by the patent pending(hehe) holder of the design/concept of his reproduction knock off.........

And also asked him if he was in need of a good attorney

I havent recieved one reply yet......:shrug:
Surprised?? ... ... Uh uhh

I wish I knew some way to leave him Ebay feedback pertaining to this ......If anyone would be kind enough to tell me how ...Id be more than glad to do so.

dima y · 08-09-2003, 09:52 PM

you have to buy something from him to leave him feedback.

LiquidRulez · 08-10-2003, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dima y
you have to buy something from him to leave him feedback.

Yeah I know thats the usual way ........but I figured one of you "geeks" knew another "less standard" way

Zhentar · 08-10-2003, 01:19 PM

hack the ebay servers.

nikhsub1 · 08-10-2003, 01:48 PM

The links to the WW are GONE!!! All rejoice! lol. I guess enough of us complained to ebay and they brought the hammer down. GOOD WORK!

Blackeagle · 08-10-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nikhsub1
The links to the WW are GONE!!! All rejoice! lol. I guess enough of us complained to ebay and they brought the hammer down. GOOD WORK!

A very good thing indeed. He may still sell his blocks, but at least people won't be mislead by his linking to BillA's article on the White Water.

winewood · 08-10-2003, 04:47 PM

I am glad this happened. See Jaydee? You could stop it without lawsuits..

Cathar does indeed have some good friends here in the forums.

hydrogen18 · 08-10-2003, 05:22 PM

i still say we order a hit on the dude

jaydee · 08-10-2003, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winewood
I am glad this happened. See Jaydee? You could stop it without lawsuits.. Cathar does indeed have some good friends here in the forums.

I would still sue his ass!

likwidkool · 08-20-2003, 01:10 PM

never mind. being a little ignorant for my own good. take me back please!:shrug:

likwidkool · 08-20-2003, 01:10 PM

sorry double post

:shrug:

08-09-2003, 10:29 AM	#38
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Caught this thread a lil late, but later today I will put a lil blurb of this up on the front page. __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

08-09-2003, 09:13 PM	#40
LiquidRulez Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In Hell Posts: 322	I sent this guy several Emails asking him if he had explicit permission to replicate the WW in any way, shape , or form ........permission given to him by the patent pending(hehe) holder of the design/concept of his reproduction knock off......... And also asked him if he was in need of a good attorney I havent recieved one reply yet......:shrug: Surprised?? ... ... Uh uhh I wish I knew some way to leave him Ebay feedback pertaining to this ......If anyone would be kind enough to tell me how ...Id be more than glad to do so. __________________ GOt H20 ?

08-10-2003, 01:48 PM	#44
nikhsub1 c00ling p00n Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: L.A. Posts: 758	The links to the WW are GONE!!! All rejoice! lol. I guess enough of us complained to ebay and they brought the hammer down. GOOD WORK! __________________ :-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-: E6700 @ 3.65Ghz / P5W DH Deluxe / 2GB 667 TeamGroup / 1900XTX PC Power & Cooling Turbo 510 Deluxe Mountain Mods U2-UFO Cube Storm G5 --> MP-01 --> PA 120.3 --> 2x DDC Ultras in Series --> Custom Clear Res "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity." 1,223,460+ Ghz Folding@Home aNonForums :-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:

08-10-2003, 04:47 PM	#46
winewood Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: in my chair Posts: 574	I am glad this happened. See Jaydee? You could stop it without lawsuits.. Cathar does indeed have some good friends here in the forums. __________________ -winewood-

08-20-2003, 01:10 PM	#49
likwidkool Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 2	never mind. being a little ignorant for my own good. take me back please!:shrug: __________________ \| Abit IC7 (vddr vmod) \| P4 2.4c L310A579 290x12 highest stable so far \| 2x256mb PC3500 Kingston HyperX \| ATI 9700pro \| Maxtor 80gb 8mb cache \| TTGI 520watt PSU \| Maze3 Copper Top CPU Waterblock \| D-Tek Pro HeaterCore (w/shroud) \| Delta 120mm 85cfm/33db fan \| Via Aqua 1300 Pump hooked to CritiCool relay \| Casemod/D-tek Bay Res \| ClearFlex60 Tubing \| All 1/2" fitting's \| Last edited by likwidkool; 08-21-2003 at 02:38 AM.

08-08-2003, 04:55 PM	#27
mastermind2004 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: MIT Posts: 78	Actually he is wrong - I know from work experience in the US and UK that anything released that you can prove is your own work is automatically your intellectual property and copyright ownership is therefore autmatically yours He is in breach of implied copyright (a little different from actual copyright and admittedly harder to enforce) so the best way to deal with him is spread the word without slandering him. People are free to make up their own minds and will invariably igonre his work in the knowledge that some of it was actually stolen - people like him are looking for exposure but are not prepared to work for it, so give it to him Were this not the case, then anything and everything on the Internet could be owned by anyone who chose to steal it, which of course we all know simply isnt the case LOL. _________________ This is from a very reliable source, and I know for a fact that he is being entirely honest with this. Link Here: http://www.deezire.net/modules.php?n...t=3846&start=0

08-08-2003, 07:54 PM	#31
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	Wow. The extra fin was to me the most glaring differance. I didn't post on any others I saw as I havn't followed what D-Tek has done with the LRWW design as far as changes beyond having a Lexan or aluminum top on it. Reading this there are several other differances that I didn't see prior to posting as well as a couple that I knew wern't the same as the original Cathar LRWW block. Nihksub1, A fine job a O/C's.

08-08-2003, 09:21 PM	#35
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	slight problem fellows the scammer linked to Joe's posting of the article, not my site and Joe (or Ed) is NOT going to let me jerk around with their site besides, if I have not tested it what can I state as fact ? no more than what has been repeated here many times now

08-09-2003, 12:55 AM	#36
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	I haven't responded until now because I was carefully weighing up how to respond to this. I think the following best explains how I feel about "fly-by-night copy-cats". I'll include an assessment of the design "copy" from what I can see of it. Perhaps the most important aspect to any mini/micro channel block is the ability to be able to open it up and clean it. These blocks are prone to clogging if the user does not take adequate precautions. If setup properly, they can run for many months, or even years, without issues. If the user is careless though and adds dirty lint-filled water to their setup, clogging may be an issue, and this is something that the user must be able to easily remedy otherwise they'll end up with a poorly performing clogged block that they cannot fix. The O-ring is cheap, but it does add production time to implement it, but it is one of the most important aspects to look for when considering purchasing a fine channelled block. If you can't easily pull the block apart to clean it, then it may only be a matter of time before the well-performing block you bought turns into a clogged and poorly performing albatross. Losing the O-ring and sealing the block up tight is one of the first things that "cheap" implementations will do in order to cut costs. The use of an O-ring also allows for the all-important top portion of the block to mate adequately with the tops of the fins to prevent the base-plate from bowing under mounting pressure as a properly implemented block of the WW design will have an extremely thin base-plate in order to realise its full performance potential. If a gasket is instead used, then there is the risk of the base-plate bowing, and the water is also not forced to flow down the channels, but instead can flow over the top, because the gasket creates a gap between the base-plate and the upper portions of the block. These are just some of the considerations that cheap-skate copy-cats will skim over and dismiss in their rush to make a "cheap imitation". In short, if you want guaranteed quality and design that incorporates all of the reasons for why the design works and exists as it should, and an implementation that will last for a long time, then there really is only one choice. Fly-by-nighters aren't hurting me or DTek much, because the people who wanted to buy the cheap imitation would probably never have considered paying extra for the proper quality item. These fly-by-nighters are really hurting who matters most, and that is the consumer. What after-market support is there? Will a block be replaced if there are issues? What about after-market parts to allow the block to be adapted to upcoming CPU socket technologies? A consumer has to ask themselves just what they're giving up by paying $25 less and whether they're really doing themselves a long-term favor, or just buying into a "throw-away" item that is made by someone who's only intention is to make money off someone else's design, but don't truly understand why the design was made the way it was and decided to cut corners.

08-09-2003, 10:49 AM	#39
Brians256 Pro/Staff Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 1,439	I just posted something in my worklog about this because I didn't see you weighing in on it yet, Joe. Oh well, it never hurts to have multiple notifications on something like this.

08-09-2003, 09:52 PM	#41
dima y Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: palo alto, CA Posts: 164	you have to buy something from him to leave him feedback.

08-10-2003, 01:19 PM	#43
Zhentar Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 225	hack the ebay servers.

08-10-2003, 05:22 PM	#47
hydrogen18 Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 248	i still say we order a hit on the dude

08-20-2003, 01:10 PM	#50
likwidkool Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 2	sorry double post :shrug: __________________ \| Abit IC7 (vddr vmod) \| P4 2.4c L310A579 290x12 highest stable so far \| 2x256mb PC3500 Kingston HyperX \| ATI 9700pro \| Maxtor 80gb 8mb cache \| TTGI 520watt PSU \| Maze3 Copper Top CPU Waterblock \| D-Tek Pro HeaterCore (w/shroud) \| Delta 120mm 85cfm/33db fan \| Via Aqua 1300 Pump hooked to CritiCool relay \| Casemod/D-tek Bay Res \| ClearFlex60 Tubing \| All 1/2" fitting's \| Last edited by likwidkool; 08-20-2003 at 05:55 PM.

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