What to soak my waterblocks/heatercore in?

[james111]

I want to soak my waterblocks and heatercore in a bucket with something to clean the insides... what should I use without it hurting the copper and metal?

[Kobuchi]

For copper use dilute acid like a cup of vinegar in the bucket. Heat helps. So does a little salt. Don't soak more than half an hour. Rinse well under tapwater, else residues oxidise your metal rapidly in air.

[BillA]

you may not have access but,
a heated ultrasonic cleaner with household amonia, ~60° for a half hour or so
if dirty several cycles may be needed

only way to 'scrub' the insides

[DrCR]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

So does a little salt.

Wouldn't you be worried about corrosion? A salt solution (table salt, NaCl, that is) is a great way to oxidize metal...

DrCR

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[BillA]

omg, another pearl from that guy

[Kobuchi]

It's common knowledge. Google: "copper cleaning vinegar". Not my idea most pages say add salt to the vinegar solution. :shrug:

Some speculative explanation from Finishing.com:
"both lemon juice (citric acid) and vinegar (acetic acid) provide mild acids that provide dissolution power for copper oxides, roughly per this equation.

(2H+)(anion--) + Cu++0-- --> H20 + (Cu++)(anion--)

The exact role of the chloride ion from the salt is where things get muddy. I believe it provides additional conductivity to assist in ion transport, and the good solubility of copper chloride probably assists as well."

[DrCR]

Originally Posted by unregistered

omg, another pearl from that guy

Am I "that" guy? :shrug:

Kobuchi, very interesting indeed. I got to look into that.

[Butcher]

I used kettle descaler on my rad to clean it out a bit, it worked pretty well, though bill's ultrasound method would be a much better choice (if you can).

[BillA]

no DrCR, I can see your posts

[DrCR]

Originally Posted by unregistered

no DrCR, I can see your posts

Cool deal.

Kobuchi, that Copper2+ is called cuprus or something and I believe Cu3+ is cupric. I'm pretty sure the Cl- ions are jumping on to it. I guess it would be cuprus dicloride or copper dicloride or something (my nomenclature is really rusty, as is my chemistry).

At any rate, NaCl is ionic and than means when it goes into solution, the Na+ and Cl- are "readily available". The Cl- really likes the positively charged Cu ions and isn't out for the heatercore or waterblock's best interest. In other words, if your security for a Cu community, Cl ions aren't exactly welcome guests, and if they are present, your going to be faced with some kidnappings. This is why you won't ever see anyone (who knows what they are doing) recommending or using Clorine bleach (I have no clue what the molecular structure is for it or where the functional groups are, but I know there's clorine in there somewhere lol). It's a great bio killer...but also Cu component killer too.

If someone feels I'm way off, then feel free to say so (I know you would anyway lol). I've got to crack open my organic text book again lol.

DrCR

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[Kobuchi]

Better rusty than rudimentary (me).

So you're saying that the chlorine of salt indiscriminately attacks copper, copper oxides and pure copper alike? That seems in line with conventional wisdom.

I have an array of copper strips tested with dozens of household chemicals, somewhere, and I remember for saline I had to make several samples because first the copper bleaches pale and pinky, then it darkens, eventually blooming green.

But would salt have the same effect in solution with vinegar? It appears so. I've simmered copper in something like 1% acetic acid, and also in that but with salt added to the brew. The visible difference is that the copper brightens (that pinky tone) straight away when salt is present; with plain vinegar it only returns to the characteristic deeper copper colour, and in seconds not instants.

So the metal finishes brighter with vinegar + salt. Maybe this boils down to an aesthetic choice.

In either case a brief soak doesn't leave any junk on the metal or harm it materially unless it's a circuit board, and we flush the part off after of course. Remember we use copper as a marine fastener and trust it for years and years - a 30 minute bath only harms watercooling parts in theory.

After 24 hours soaking in plain saline I did note a fine sandy (etched?) texture on the still pink metal, but this was nearly microscopic.

TSP is neat: it makes copper shiney black like gun blue. Might be a better option for those who'd paint their rads black.

Well, that's about all I have for the thread.

***

What's an ultrasonic cleaner? Something one could rig up with the right solenoid?

[Butcher]

The active ingredient in chlorine bleach is Sodium Hypochlorite (NaOCl). This dissolves in water to form hypochlorous acid (HOCl). Hypochlorous acid will split into hydrochloric acid (HCl) and oxygen, and the oxygen will oxide your metals. It's pretty much bad news for a cooling system. If you check chlorine bleach bottles they say not to use on metals because it's highly corrosive to them.

[DrCR]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Remember we use copper as a marine fastener and trust it for years and years - a 30 minute bath only harms watercooling parts in theory.

TSP is neat: it makes copper shiney black like gun blue. Might be a better option for those who'd paint their rads black.

What's an ultrasonic cleaner? Something one could rig up with the right solenoid?

Very true. Let's say a watercooler cleans out his HC once a year or so. We're talking about only a handful of hours max until, well really, the dude switches to another setup. On the other hand though, you don't mind if your boat's cleats erode a good bit, but most good waterbocks aren't as rudimentary.

TSP? I'm not familiar with that. The only TSP I know TechSupport and phone service provider, as well as what I stir my tea with lol.

An ultrasonic bath is really just a tub that vibrates, but like a mad feen. Gives you a real weird sensation when you put your hand in there, kind of like you're being poked with a bunch of pins. I've used it in the Chem lab to clean glassware to scrupulously clean, analytical specs (PChem lab) or something as simple as helping cantankerous solids dissolve into solution more quickly. You can’t run them for too long though (hours on end) as they will over heat, or at least ours did.

https://www1.fishersci.com/Browse?bp=1328H|U19846H

DrCR

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[Kobuchi]

T.S.P. is janitorial lingo for trisodium phosphate. It's commonly available for stripping paint, scrubbing decks, brightening concrete... it's cheap and powerful. Somehow it puts a silky, durable, blue-black finish on copper, like the anodized coating on aluminum.

***

I'm wondering if a few big old stereo speakers would work, if I staggered the pulses.

Also I have an (don't laugh) ultrasonic mist generator. It focuses ultrasound at a range of about 1-1/2" to vapourise water, wafting tranquil mists through bonsai, and supposedly sticking your finger into this focal area is extremely painful. It could make a neat add-on for my paintbrush cleaning tub. Any chance of igniting the paint thinner (it roils the liquid)?

[DrCR]

Old stereo speakers! That's just great man. Hey, give it a try.

A ultrasonic mist generator? Sounds cool. I'm thinking the affective area would be too localized though.

DrCR

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[BillA]

do we have a vocabulary problem ?

ultrasonic means what to you ?

[Butcher]

Presumably it's possibly to set up a DIY ultrasonic cleaner (though obviously not with speakers!) I have no idea what you'd use as a transducer though.

[BillA]

neat devices with some interesting charactistics
can you say 'unhappy barking dog'

[Kobuchi]

Speaker magnets: half baked.

Well, I'll try this focused ultrasound toy for something besides roiling water, but not on grandma's kidney stones just yet. Crusty paintbrush first. Copper verdigris next. The focal area is limited, but on the bright side the unit's so compact I can use it by hand.

I checked and found ultrasonic parts cleaners essentially the same thing (the transducer is a speaker), but larger of course.

***

I haven't yet tried electrolytic deoxidisation with metals besides iron, but will post results if successful.

EDIT: Looks like the museum guys employ precisely the same setup for conserving copper and copper alloys as for iron. Even the anode is iron; only the cathode is copper in this case. I like this method because it's fun & simple, nontoxic, can't possibly etch or do anything to intact metal, and anyone with a spoon of washing soda (or baking soda) and a computer power supply will have all the supplies they need around the home.

CONSERVATION OF CUPREOUS METALS (COPPER, BRONZE, BRASS) - ELECTROLYTIC REDUCTION CLEANING

***

UPDATE: Kitchen grade electrolysis cleans copper even better than steel. Flick the switch and bubbles and crud foam off the instantly brightening copper. I tried it on a filthy copper scrub pad. 5 seconds, it was clean all through. 5 minutes later it was just as shiny and unharmed by this prolonged treatment.

Also a coffee can may double both as electrolyte container and anode; saves you the nail or sacrificial spoon.

This is a very simple, safe, and effective means of cleaning copper. The surface fizzling also works to mechanically remove grime. It will not harm components made of rubber or plastic.

Here's a how-to guide: Rust Removal Using Electrolysis - By Andrew Westcott

I used baking soda, not washing soda, and both -5VDC and +5VDC off an AT PSU, not a battery charger or purpose built power supply.

Next trial is aluminum, and copper with aluminum.

[Butcher]

Why the -5V?

[TerraMex]

Question.
Assume a partially panted copper rad. Wanted to clean the non painted parts (obviously). Effects on the paint by electro cleaning?

[Kobuchi]

Originally Posted by Butcher

Why the -5V?

No good reason. It works with just -5VDC on the copper, or +5VDC on the waste metal (steel or stainless), or +12VDC on the waste...

JUST MAKE SURE THE PIECE YOU WANT TO SACRIFICE IS POSITIVE RELATIVE TO THE PIECE YOU WANT TO RESTORE.

Because the process converts surface corrosion back to pure metal (e.g. copper oxide becomes copper), but loosens off thick corrosion (by bubbling), there is good reason to carefully regulate the voltage and current with heavily corroded objects, to preserve as much metal as possible. But with objects not crusted over we can just use whatever's handy. I like to see the metal fiz like tempura in oil, personally.

Originally Posted by TerraMex

Effects on the paint by electro cleaning?

It defies instincts to put your hand in there, but it really is a gentle process.

Loose paint on a corroded patch will be lifted off if the electrolyte can get under it. Otherwise the effect will be just what you'd expect from soaking in plain water with a dollop of baking soda. Prolonged soaking would soften interior latex paints, and old fashioned milk paints.

Really thick coatings of grease will block the electrolytic action.

[Butcher]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

No good reason. It works with just -5VDC on the copper, or +5VDC on the waste metal (steel or stainless), or +12VDC on the waste...

Easier to use 0V and 12V I'd have thought, and less likely to nuke your PSU. Better would be to use a bench power supply so you can adjust the voltage to limit current flow.

[Kobuchi]

Originally Posted by Butcher

0V and 12V... less likely to nuke your PSU.

Better... adjust the voltage to limit current flow.

I'll use the 0V and +12V then. Thanks. I do use expendable old AT power supplies for these jobs, but only have four at the moment.

Current flow is usually easy to adjust by the gap between anode and cathode in the electrolyte, which acts like a variable resistor. Or one could add water to further limit current. I agree though a bench power supply would be best.

[TerraMex]

It defies instincts to put your hand in there, but it really is a gentle process.

Loose paint on a corroded patch will be lifted off if the electrolyte can get under it. Otherwise the effect will be just what you'd expect from soaking in plain water with a dollop of baking soda. Prolonged soaking would soften interior latex paints, and old fashioned milk paints.

Really thick coatings of grease will block the electrolytic action.

Anything with liquids and electricity and acid/base solutions defies my instintics.
Heck, pick any two (not so obscure reference to another subject ).

Anyway, thanks, i'll give it a try.