Another White Water rip off.

[#Rotor]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Not sure if this has been covered but it certainly is getting old.

This one is by a pretty major manufacturer to boot.

The Asetek Antartica.... Next will be the Cascade......

you have to appreciate the irony though...... 3 years ago those guys dissed me for daring to suggest combining phase-change cooling with liquid-cooling, and by doing so, getting a solution that would knock the socks off of any of there Vapo's .... Now only to see they actually seem to be seeing the light..... wonder how long b4 they will try to chill the liquid, as their name suggests....

glad to see they are living up to the mediocre commercial blockmanufacturers guild's code of conduct...
" thou Shallt copy...thou shallt Paste"

[BillA]

Originally Posted by |kbn|

. . . . ..There are only so many ways a block can be made and Cathar seems to have discovered them first and then perfected them.
. . . . .
I thought this forum was about improving waterblocks. This forum is like a reference book, any one that reads it can learn from it. People that post good designs here should expect others to use them as a reference for making there own blocks. Manufacturers would see it the same way and use it to learn, but not to copy.
. . . . .

you forgot the part about walking on water, fishes and loafs, etc.
you are wrong
do not confuse "discovery" with applications engn
Cathar is innovative, has conviction, and perseverance
ah yes Dave; a spot of ability too, as well as a relevant education

as first a significant contributor to the forums, and now as a mfgr, I've observed how (several) forums, and the marketplace itself, affect product offerings
and a number of mfgrs have indeed done ugly things
- does anyone recall the dimples Swiftech put on the inside of the MCW462 ?
and how many weeks it took Silverprop to make a direct copy ?
(and why Swiftech now applies for a design patent for everything)
others can describe Silverprop's 'innovation history' in far greater detail

so do WCers care about innovation and business ethics in the WCing marketplace ?
- nope, best performance (based on someone else's description) and lowest price

how can most WCers possibly even attempt to evaluate companies if they have not been involved for 2 or 3 years to understand what has transpired,
-> and how the past generally predicts the future
(this has NOTHING to do with vendor verdicts, the benchmark of most)

it is a genuine dilemma for small players like Swiftech, how to fund R&D with unrelenting price pressure ?
and which mfgr is it who provides ongoing technical (non-financial) support to the 2 serious independent testers ?
BTW, a Thank You to those who, even a the cost of a degree, continue to 'buy Swiftech'; expect good things, they're in the pipeline

EDIT: sorry #rotor, its all from Cathar
lol (chill fanboys, Stew and I are good friends)

[freeloadingbum]

Originally Posted by unregistered

does anyone recall the dimples Swiftech put on the inside of the MCW462 ?
and how many weeks it took Silverprop to make a direct copy ?
(and why Swiftech now applies for a design patent for everything)
others can describe Silverprop's 'innovation history' in far greater detail

I thought that you added dimples to your swiftech block as an independant experiment prior to Swiftech adding them.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Les

Maybe you have the same confusion I had here

Yes, indeed I am.

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by unregistered

the MCW5000-A is merely the 5000 with the Athlon mounting hardware, there was no revision # for the 'dropped deck' change

and there was me thinking "A" was for Adams......

think they missed a (marketing) trick not calling it the BA signature

[AntiBling]

Originally Posted by Pureh20

anti-bling, companies will always say "the idea was in the drawing board for centuries" meaning "we had no creativity and didnt give a rats about new boundaries as long as the dosh is rolling in, but then along came someone else idea"

cathar started this way back in 2001

To your first point?
Yes!

and the to second...

Yes!

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The free market can be a cruel place.

[deathBOB]

I dont see what the big deal is... If a design isnt copyrighted, its fair game for anything... Even if it is, some chinese company will make a knock off... what did you all expect?

[Gooserider]

Ever compared Ford and Chevy V-8 engines? Think they were both invented by the same company?

Innovation even in the form of knockoff's is part of the competitive process - products are patentable, but not design concepts. If one person designs a product and patents it, then that product is protected, but not the idea of doing something in a way that is SIMILAR to the patented product. If there was no patent on the original design then that it is fair game for a direct copy.

Cathar invented the Whitewater concept, and the initial design, and that is good. Other companies take the concept of fins with a center impingement jet and exhausts on each side, and create variations on it - perhaps a different configuration on the jet, or changes in the fin spacing and number, or putting bumps on the fins or ...... So long as there is a significant difference in the two products then all is somewhat fair - the question of just HOW MUCH difference is required may be a matter for the courts, but as long as there is enough, then it is legitimate.

This may even lead to a technical improvement. I have no doubt about Cathar's genius, but I also don't think he has tried every possible manner of jet and fin configuration, let alone top design and material choice, and I see it as entirely possible that a knockoff could infact find a configuration or manufacturing method that improves on the original.

I would also point out that no company. no matter how ethically challenged, profits or gets rich strictly by ripping off the designs of a competitor. ALL companies can profit only by finding an answer to the key business question of "How can I help you today Mr. Customer?" that is better than the answer offered by a competitor. This might be done by offering a knockoff for less money, a better design, or a copy that can be gotten instead of just lusted after. In each case, the customer gets something he needs, and the market is guided towards the optimal use of resources of all types.

Given that in the WC market, there seems to be such a small amount of difference between the top level of blocks that even the honest testers have trouble reaching a concensus as to what is the best, it seems to me that there is little room for competition on technical merits, as one will probably be reasonably happy with any of the top tier blocks. So what is left? Price? Availability? 'Bling Bling' design? Build quality? All copper vs. mixed metals? Use of a design concept that is known to be effective?

So Mr block maker, why aren't you asking me "How can I serve you better?" instead of kvetching about people that are doing it?

Gooserider

[BalefireX]

BTW, a Thank You to those who, even a the cost of a degree, continue to 'buy Swiftech'; expect good things, they're in the pipeline

Undoubtedly the most interesting sentence in this thread.
Do we get any more hints on what kind of advancements we're going to be seeing?

I'm expecting that the new Swiftech blocks will not be Whitewater/Cascade ripoffs - but I'm also expecting (wishing?) for similar performance - if this is the case, things could get very interesting.

[BillA]

"So Mr block maker, why aren't you asking me "How can I serve you better?""
such is a consumer's plaint, not a technical issue

the comments are about innovation, or lack of same
those inclined to copy are welcome to their profits, that is their heading - not mine obviously
don't need a design engr to make a copy eh ? (the engr's pride more important than profits ?)
look at the new wbs of the last year, plenty of different implementations - some fairly good too for initial offerings

this thread is about a blatant copy made by a company who, in the estimation of some, should have been able and willing to do better

EDIT: BalefireX
not how its done in the commercial world, think price-performance point
not an absolute performance contest at all, its 'bounce for the buck'
will I give up 0.5°C for a reduction of $5 in the mfgn cost ?
most of the time, yes

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Gooserider

Ever compared Ford and Chevy V-8 engines? Think they were both invented by the same company?

Yes, they are cmpletely different. Also manufactures BUY tech and licences from each other to avoid law suits and make it legal.

Innovation even in the form of knockoff's is part of the competitive process - products are patentable, but not design concepts. If one person designs a product and patents it, then that product is protected, but not the idea of doing something in a way that is SIMILAR to the patented product. If there was no patent on the original design then that it is fair game for a direct copy.

There is no innovation in this block. It is a direct copy of the white water with some fancy BS around it. I bet if you measured it everything would be identical.

Cathar invented the Whitewater concept, and the initial design, and that is good. Other companies take the concept of fins with a center impingement jet and exhausts on each side, and create variations on it - perhaps a different configuration on the jet, or changes in the fin spacing and number, or putting bumps on the fins or ...... So long as there is a significant difference in the two products then all is somewhat fair - the question of just HOW MUCH difference is required may be a matter for the courts, but as long as there is enough, then it is legitimate.

Sorry, but this is just BS. It shouldn't have top get to the courts as these places should be designing their own blocks, not variations of one's already made.

This may even lead to a technical improvement. I have no doubt about Cathar's genius, but I also don't think he has tried every possible manner of jet and fin configuration, let alone top design and material choice, and I see it as entirely possible that a knockoff could infact find a configuration or manufacturing method that improves on the original.

Sure, hasn't yet though since 2001. They are not interested in performance. They are interested in selling blocks. How do you do that? Make a copy of a popular block or design one better. Which is easier and quicker?...

I would also point out that no company. no matter how ethically challenged, profits or gets rich strictly by ripping off the designs of a competitor. ALL companies can profit only by finding an answer to the key business question of "How can I help you today Mr. Customer?" that is better than the answer offered by a competitor. This might be done by offering a knockoff for less money, a better design, or a copy that can be gotten instead of just lusted after. In each case, the customer gets something he needs, and the market is guided towards the optimal use of resources of all types.

No, something he "wants". And he is whilling to do whatever it takes to get what he "wants". Even if it means disrespecting.

Given that in the WC market, there seems to be such a small amount of difference between the top level of blocks that even the honest testers have trouble reaching a concensus as to what is the best, it seems to me that there is little room for competition on technical merits, as one will probably be reasonably happy with any of the top tier blocks. So what is left? Price? Availability? 'Bling Bling' design? Build quality? All copper vs. mixed metals? Use of a design concept that is known to be effective?

Plenty.

So Mr block maker, why aren't you asking me "How can I serve you better?" instead of kvetching about people that are doing it?

They can serve me better by being innovative and making somthing original that works and giving credit were credit is due. Once that is acheived I have a reason to make a commerial block. Untill then I have no reason what so ever to make a block for people to use as all I can expect is for some other company to rip it off and sell it themselfs.

What reason does a new company have to make their own block in the current state of jacking designs? How is this benifitting the WC world? There is no innovation in the current WC world. Proof is all these WW knock offs that don't work as good as the original. Innovation is making something new and BETTER or taking something old and making it BETTER. So far that has not happened from anyone. You are wrong in your thoughs above. These companies are simply wrong in the ways they are doing business and taking advantage of the ignorant buyer and of work done by others.

Gooserider

jaydee116 have you considered the limits of manufacturing blocks.

Thanks for the insult. I see my work on this site really shows. Yes, I know it all to well and there are hundreds of combinations yet to be done. Some even work.

[BalefireX]

not how its done in the commercial world, think price-performance point
not an absolute performance contest at all, its 'bounce for the buck'
will I give up 0.5°C for a reduction of $5 in the mfgn cost ?
most of the time, yes

Of course - it would be unreasonable to expect anything else - thus why nobody sells a synthetic diamond based waterblock

However, as a performance-minded consumer there is a dillema: Call it brand loyalty, call it trust in a manufacturer/product, but I like Swiftech blocks - however, I look at a performance graph like the one pHaestus posted in his MCW-5000 Review, and see that the Dtek Whitewater ($50-$55) and the Dangerden RBX ($53) both outperform the MCW5000A ($53) at all flow rates - and by quite a bit at higher flow rates. Would I, personally, mind if you added $5 or $10 to the price of the block to equal the performance of WW clones? Not particularly - I understand why an Audi costs more than a VW with the same performance.

[kaotic504]

here's the review of the whole kit that comes w/ the waterblock. LINKY!!! of course, that company doesn't produce anything themselves but rather they gather good parts from other companies and provide it to the consumer in a package. we've seen many rip offs in our time, just think of all the heatsinks w/ very similar designs, one i can remember is the ThermoEngine design, Scyth's Kamakaze design is VERY similar to an Alpha heatsink. look at what happened wehn CoolerMaster first came out w/ the heatpipe design, now many many companies utilize that design and idea. other companies will continue to use other's ideas and "remanufacture" and "reverse engineer" components. i feel that Cathar should still be entitled to some royalties b/c i know the company is going to bank off of this. but here's the review. apparently it performs well.

[BillA]

yea, pearls perhaps - but no diamonds, lol
near term is done (but not yet announced to public)
intermediate undefined (is WCing viable ?)
longer term, 1 to 2 years, all different (if presently using an active cooling device)

wake-up calls due shortly, level of 'technology' gonna take a pretty big step up
this is the R&D dilemma, how can one play if the customers won't pay ?
big balls AND deep pockets, no place for guessing

back to your point, one should consider the system C/W, not just the component C/W
I do encourage pushing the envelope, what this site promotes (hey, I'm here, no ?)
but do not confuse maximum with reasonably practical, where the world lives
-> and where mfgrs also need to survive

N.B. I can exceed about anything existent in the lab, high volume production at a profit is an altogether different proposal

kaotic504
quite agree with you, so why did Asetec not 'cut a deal' with Cathar ?
shit, pay him $1000 to 'be happy' ?

[BalefireX]

Now, I know you can't tell us to much (secrets secrets!) but is the soon to be announced block a thin base/central inlet design, or merely a tweaked thick base/offset inlet/diamond pin matrix design?

...or something completely new?

[BillA]

this is NOT a product announcement

something old, something new;
something borrowed, something blue

perhaps the most perfect wb description I've ever provided

[kaotic504]

the performance test have shown that this block edges the WW, but it's misleading information, you clearly need a lot more flow for this block to work well. the comparison charts are REALLY close but they also post the flow rates. the price of the block is just about the same as the price of the WW. so it's just going to be preference there. i, personally, would rather buy a WW though, very versatile at different flow rates.

[Gooserider]

I'm not terribly surprised, my post dealing with modern economics and the workings of a free market seems to have generated a bit of controversy. :shrug:

Just to make one thing clear, I have no particular stake in this arguement, as I am not in the market for a WB from any maker. (I have a mill, I make my own, using my own variant on a #rotor style design)

Another random thought that I just had - It is known that there are other WW 'clones' out there, how and why is everyone assuming that it was the *WW* that was copied? Couldn't it be asserted that one of the clones was copied and the modifications reconverged back towards the original design (since after all it was better...) via independent R&D? Not saying it is, but is that not also a possibility?

To take things one at a time....

unregistered: "So Mr block maker, why aren't you asking me "How can I serve you better?"" such is a consumer's plaint, not a technical issue the comments are about innovation, or lack of same

True, but the customers are the ones that drive the business because without them the business goes away. The company in question has made the technical decision that providing more of the same is what the customers want, as opposed to innovation.

those inclined to copy are welcome to their profits, that is their heading - not mine obviously

Never said it was, there are innovators and copy cats... Need I point out that these PC's we are banging on are in large part due to copy cats 'stealing' IBM's innovative ideas? (and not paying royalties either for much of it)

don't need a design engr to make a copy eh ? (the engr's pride more important than profits ?)

The engineer is still needed, but perhaps of a different sort - the target of the 'copy' still needs to be reverse engineered, and the design altered enough to prevent problems with lawsuits. I will admit I have not followed the history of the WW from the first, but my understanding is that neither Cathar nor D-tek secured patents on the design, and the detailed dimensions have been repeatedly published on the net - and this website. If that is the case, the plans are legally public domain, and the grounds for any suits are thin to non-existant (IANAL, but that is my understanding of the law in any case)

look at the new wbs of the last year, plenty of different implementations - some fairly good too for initial offerings this thread is about a blatant copy made by a company who, in the estimation of some, should have been able and willing to do better

There may be back chat I haven't seen, but from what I've seen in this thread, I haven't seen that much evidence that it IS a 'blatant copy'! There are comments that the picture LOOKS like a copy, and even that acknowledges that the top is different (and what about any changes in the jet dimensions, spacing, etc. that might go with that different top design) but no actual HARD comparisons between the two. As to whether the company should have done better? Well the customers are going to have a chance to vote on the matter, just as they do on most everything else, by the act of opening their wallets and deciding who to give their $$$'s to. If they think the company should be punished for copying or a lack of technical innovation they can do so simply by giving their money to a competitor and urging their friends to do likewise.

EDIT: BalefireX not how its done in the commercial world, think price-performance point not an absolute performance contest at all, its 'bounce for the buck' will I give up 0.5°C for a reduction of $5 in the mfgn cost ? most of the time, yes

Certainly, it's a legitimate engineering decision, the question is whether or not the consumers will punish you for that decision or not?

-------------------

jaydee116:
GR: Ever compared Ford and Chevy V-8 engines? Think they were both invented by the same company? JD:Yes, they are cmpletely different. Also manufactures BUY tech and licences from each other to avoid law suits and make it legal.

True on both counts, but the design differences are subtle, and the tech cross licensing is limited, usually to what is cheaper to purchase than to reverse engineer...

GR: Innovation even in the form of knockoff's is part of the competitive process - products are patentable, but not design concepts. If one person designs a product and patents it, then that product is protected, but not the idea of doing something in a way that is SIMILAR to the patented product. If there was no patent on the original design then that it is fair game for a direct copy.
JD: There is no innovation in this block. It is a direct copy of the white water with some fancy BS around it. I bet if you measured it everything would be identical.

That 'fancy BS around it' does make it different, and I take it from your comment that you HAVEN'T measured it, so how do you know? ISO Certified calibrated eyeballs?

GR: Cathar invented the Whitewater concept, and the initial design, and that is good. Other companies take the concept of fins with a center impingement jet and exhausts on each side, and create variations on it - perhaps a different configuration on the jet, or changes in the fin spacing and number, or putting bumps on the fins or ...... So long as there is a significant difference in the two products then all is somewhat fair - the question of just HOW MUCH difference is required may be a matter for the courts, but as long as there is enough, then it is legitimate.
JD: Sorry, but this is just BS. It shouldn't have top get to the courts as these places should be designing their own blocks, not variations of one's already made.

True from a philosophical standpoint, and we all should come with harps and haloes too... I'm talking the real world, where people can disagree on where the border between innovation and copying exists. The courts are the mechanism that most of us have decided for better or worse (to the extent that they are gov't run I think worse, but that's a different matter) to decide on such disagreements. For whatever reason, as I mentioned earlier, my understanding is that neither Cathar nor D-tek did much to preserve their rights in the WW design, which makes it a lot less of a problem for someone wanting to copy it. (Also probably a reason why people don't try to copy Swiftech designs since Swifty DOES take efforts to protect them)

GR: This may even lead to a technical improvement. I have no doubt about Cathar's genius, but I also don't think he has tried every possible manner of jet and fin configuration, let alone top design and material choice, and I see it as entirely possible that a knockoff could infact find a configuration or manufacturing method that improves on the original.
JD: Sure, hasn't yet though since 2001.

Permit me to 'copy' from all the mutual fund adverts "Past performance does not guarantee future results"

They are not interested in performance. They are interested in selling blocks. How do you do that? Make a copy of a popular block or design one better. Which is easier and quicker?...

EXACTLY RIGHT!!! This just so happens to be WHY they are in business, to sell blocks. Performance is only important insofar as it helps them to sell blocks. Even on these supposedly performance driven forums, I see as much if not more attention being given to how blocks LOOK as how they perform...

(Would BR get as much cred here as he does if he just lapped his blocks enough to mount them, and showed them in 'as soldered' condition? No, he gets his well deserved accolades because his blocks are works of art as well as decent performers. I actually suspect that if given the BillA test, they would only score in the mediocre range, not in the WW/Cascade range - but I see constant efforts to purchase them, is it for performance or looks?)

Given that they are interested in selling blocks, why should they spend extraordinary amounts to get performance that does not improve their bottom line? Reproducing an internal design that has been proven to perform well and has good customer acceptance allows them to focus more attention on creating an innovative and (they hope) market share attracting top design and mounting hardware. Their management felt that this was the best way to expend their R&D dollars and get a product to market quickly. Your WB company may choose to do things differently, and see how the market responds.

GR: I would also point out that no company. no matter how ethically challenged, profits or gets rich strictly by ripping off the designs of a competitor. ALL companies can profit only by finding an answer to the key business question of "How can I help you today Mr. Customer?" that is better than the answer offered by a competitor. This might be done by offering a knockoff for less money, a better design, or a copy that can be gotten instead of just lusted after. In each case, the customer gets something he needs, and the market is guided towards the optimal use of resources of all types.
JD: No, something he "wants". And he is whilling to do whatever it takes to get what he "wants". Even if it means disrespecting.

Customers are the only ones in a free market (The situation which exists when no government interferes) that can differentiate between "Needs" and "wants" and they do so by opening their wallets. IIRC, one of the early posters in this thread expressed a desire for an original WW, and his dissapointment that they couldn't be purchased any more. It's my understanding that Cathar and D-Tek no longer make the WW, so exactly who is being offended against when a company serves the customer by giving him what he wants, especially when the original producers choose not to do so (which is their right)
[Quote}GR: Given that in the WC market, there seems to be such a small amount of difference between the top level of blocks that even the honest testers have trouble reaching a concensus as to what is the best, it seems to me that there is little room for competition on technical merits, as one will probably be reasonably happy with any of the top tier blocks. So what is left? Price? Availability? 'Bling Bling' design? Build quality? All copper vs. mixed metals? Use of a design concept that is known to be effective? JD: Plenty. [/quote]
Define? Provide examples? How many variations on the re-invented wheel do you want?

GR: So Mr block maker, why aren't you asking me "How can I serve you better?" instead of kvetching about people that are doing it?
JD: They can serve me better by being innovative and making somthing original that works and giving credit were credit is due. Once that is acheived I have a reason to make a commerial block. Untill then I have no reason what so ever to make a block for people to use as all I can expect is for some other company to rip it off and sell it themselfs. What reason does a new company have to make their own block in the current state of jacking designs? How is this benifitting the WC world? There is no innovation in the current WC world. Proof is all these WW knock offs that don't work as good as the original. Innovation is making something new and BETTER or taking something old and making it BETTER. So far that has not happened from anyone. You are wrong in your thoughs above. These companies are simply wrong in the ways they are doing business and taking advantage of the ignorant buyer and of work done by others.

It isn't impossible to protect an original design. That some have failed to do so doesn't mean it can't be done. Cathar already has more credit than most engineers get (Quick, give me a list of the engineers that did new and innovative work on the design of your car?) much as we'd like to see him get more.
The creation of additional blocks, even if copies that don't perform as well as the originals (another non-proven assumption) still serves the WC world by providing a greater range of choices and helping to drive the price of W/C systems down so that more can afford them. It also does represent slight incremental innovation, even if you don't choose to recognize it as such. You are also free (as always) to express your opinions of the companies by purchasing elsewhere, or making up your own blocks.

: Gooserider Quote: jaydee116 have you considered the limits of manufacturing blocks. Thanks for the insult. I see my work on this site really shows. Yes, I know it all to well and there are hundreds of combinations yet to be done. Some even work.

HUHH??? That one isn't mine, and I don't know where it came from - please be more careful in your attributions, and give credit where it's due!

------------------------------

unregistered(again): <snip>
kaotic504
quite agree with you, so why did Asetec not 'cut a deal' with Cathar ?
shit, pay him $1000 to 'be happy' ?

It might have been good PR to have done so - if you can figure out how they could have made it known that Cathar was 'happy' - but I don't know what legal obligation they would have had to do so.

Gooserider

[jaydee]

Quote:
: Gooserider Quote: jaydee116 have you considered the limits of manufacturing blocks. Thanks for the insult. I see my work on this site really shows. Yes, I know it all to well and there are hundreds of combinations yet to be done. Some even work.

HUHH??? That one isn't mine, and I don't know where it came from - please be more careful in your attributions, and give credit where it's due!

The quote didn;t have your name in it did it? Wasn't directed at you nor ment to be.

Also no on your public domain theory. It simply does not work like like. A picture is instantly copyrighted to the owner once it is produced. It is compltly irrelevant how many sites it got spammed around. It is still not in the public domain UNTIL the owner agreed for it to be. This applies to Cathars design aswell. It is in a drawing form that Cathar made and it had copyright and intillectual protection since he made it. I have done plenty of research on this public domain for other reasons. Look it up, plenty on google about it.

The problem Cathar has it it would cost much more to take this to court than it is currently worth. If he was smart he would take out a loan and patent the Cascade before someone else does.

Anyway my point of this thread was to remind people to not corrupt themselfs. it seemsto be habbit forming in this world lately. Now got to get back to work on Project X.

[|kbn|]

>jaydee116 have you considered the limits of manufacturing blocks.

Thanks for the insult. I see my work on this site really shows. Yes, I know it all to well and there are hundreds of combinations yet to be done. Some even work.

It wasnt meant as an insult. I agree theres loads left to be done but I cant see any majorly new designs happining any time soon.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by |kbn|

It wasnt meant as an insult. I agree theres loads left to be done but I cant see any majorly new designs happining any time soon.

I know, thats why I threw in the smilie. The reason new stuff isn't coming out is because no one is innovating anything new. They are taking old design that work from everyone else and adding a more appealing look to it and selling it as their own. This Astec block is a prime example as is the Silver Prop blocks. What makes them work is the same but the appearance is different. It seems these places have no real engineers. Just some CAD guy with creativity. If water cooling gets more and more popular and bigger companies get into it then it will get interesting. Same as it did for Air cooling. Once the hot AMD's started coming out all kinds of high performance coolers came out of the wood work with all kinds of different designs. it will happen with water cooling if the demand is there. Untill then it will continue to be as it is.

[MadHacker]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

I know, thats why I threw in the smilie. The reason new stuff isn't coming out is because no one is innovating anything new. They are taking old design that work from everyone else and adding a more appealing look to it and selling it as their own. This Astec block is a prime example as is the Silver Prop blocks. What makes them work is the same but the appearance is different. It seems these places have no real engineers. Just some CAD guy with creativity. If water cooling gets more and more popular and bigger companies get into it then it will get interesting. Same as it did for Air cooling. Once the hot AMD's started coming out all kinds of high performance coolers came out of the wood work with all kinds of different designs. it will happen with water cooling if the demand is there. Untill then it will continue to be as it is.

I disagree...
although i havn't been into watercooling myself for very long(still in the process of building my first) and i have only been readiing about watercooling for over a year now, if you first consider when watercooling first was started and then consider all the changes that has happened to it since. granted nothing happens overnight. If it took Cather 2 years to create the Whitewater, who knows what kind of inovation we will have in the next 2 years.

as for copy cats out there making knock off blocks...
someone had to make the fist water block for CPUs, after that everything is a copy, even that was stolen from water cooling in cars. it all depends on how grand of a scale we think.
I'll probly get flamed for this ...

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by MadHacker

I disagree...
although i havn't been into watercooling myself for very long(still in the process of building my first) and i have only been readiing about watercooling for over a year now, if you first consider when watercooling first was started and then consider all the changes that has happened to it since. granted nothing happens overnight. If it took Cather 2 years to create the Whitewater, who knows what kind of inovation we will have in the next 2 years.

He made it in 2001. It is 2004 and people are just starting to copy the hell out if it. No, that is not innovation. Nothing has hit the market yet that can keep up with the WW (even he half assed knock-offs) let alone the Cascade. Nothing exiting has come about in the last year. Not sure what your talking about. Post links resellers selling these blocks?

as for copy cats out there making knock off blocks...
someone had to make the fist water block for CPUs, after that everything is a copy, even that was stolen from water cooling in cars. it all depends on how grand of a scale we think.
I'll probly get flamed for this ...

Stolen from cars? I guess air cooler tech was stolen from mother earth? Not a very sound example, but understood your point.

[|kbn|]

Everything has to be based on something but this is blatant copying and I agree with jaydee116 that this isnt right.
Basing a design on your own research is best, based on others reseach but with improved theory (as in test blocks by someone else) as resonable if the final design is changed enough.
Basing it solely on someone elses design with no care of improving the theory behind it, as i just to make money, is whats is happening and is what should be stopped.
For one off blocks for example my home made gpu silver ww like block, I dont think it would matter as no profit is being made. Other opinions?

I just read a thread over at bit-tech, linky. He intends to make 10/month. Note what he has named the block, and the performance claims, and how he justifys that it is better, in true marketing BS style.... Cathar from your post I assume you havent licenced the design to him or even knew his existed before that thread. I think he deserves to be sued.

[MadHacker]

Originally Posted by |kbn|

Everything has to be based on something but this is blatant copying and I agree with jaydee116 that this isnt fair.

FAIR?
Just out of curiosity .. where did you get the idea that life was supose to be even remotely fair?
Life isn't fair... nor is it suppose to be...
It always annoys me when someone complains about something not being fair...
Is it fair that some people have to work real had all their life and have nothing to show for it while others never have to work a day in their life and have all that they want? is it fair that some babies are born with aids?
So stop this thing about 'fair' life it isn't... get use to it...