So Lets talk websites, the cooling scene, etc...

Joe · 08-26-2005, 01:30 PM

Well most of you know (or not...) that I sorta gave up on ProCooling nearly 2 years ago. Well not really gave up, just got busy with other stuff. In that time pH did a pretty damn nice job with stuff being posted, reader counts going up and up, it was nice.

Then WoW happened (for pH and like a billion other geeks), and the stupid software we used to manage the site just became too much of a burden and everything sorta stopped on the site. The brakes really got hit like 6 months ago or so. Since then reader counts have dropped to pretty much the lower levels we have seen ever, the site hasn’t been updated (last article is nearly 2 years old), and the forums were left to be the sole place the site was still maintained.

Well Shit...

My other ventures are over now, I have some spare time, and since I walked away from ProCooling I have learned quite a bit about business, web design, web programming, etc...

So instead of just talking I am pretty motivated to get ProCooling back rocking. With pH's testing prowess, My sarcastic self deprecating wit and attention to detail, I am all about moving ProCooling back into the way it was in the previous years (when we actually did work).

Heck even Unaclocker is going to write an article!

We need staff, we need sponsors, we need to find where the cooling scene really is now. I know its pretty much 95% mainstream to water cool now it seems, so the Niche shouldn’t be that small anymore. But on the flip side, now the NEED for this kind of cooling is also going down rapidly. Overclocking isn’t a primary need for many people because the current high end machines are very under worked most of the time.

But silent cooling is something that becomes more and more important when it comes to HTPC's (and powerful HTPC's at that), Home PC's in smaller cases that need to be cooled effectively yet silently, etc...

As far as the website goes, one of the key things that I am pushing for is making the website more about the community than the people who run the site. As with the forums pH, Brian, and myself are hardly the focal points of stuff in the forum, we are more just the care takers of the zoo.

Unlike before - I am pretty motivated to get this thing rocking again, get some new sponsors, get some new light on this old site (in tech site timelines, its pretty old now going on 6 years come December) . We are looking for people to come onboard to help out, we are looking for moderators for the forums (for the workBlogs and such when they come online), and overall just people to help spread the word.

I know we are seen as assholes by the less than smart in the world.. and since there are LOTS of stupid people, it sort of alienates us... but **** it theres more smart ones out there than stupid ones... I HOPE!.

pHaestus · 08-26-2005, 01:56 PM

Joe one thing we talked about over beer the other day I really think you should do: Get a mainstream kit from Cooltechnica or Swiftech or something and watercool one of your rigs with it. Provide some perspective on how different things are now vs. when you were using all diy stuff. Point out ways that old problems have been solved, and point out areas that still need improvement. Since you haven't built a wcing system in a good long while but you still know your shit I think that it would be an interesting way to get a qualified person to look at how things are going with commercial wcing today.

jaydee · 08-26-2005, 02:23 PM

One thing I noticed is a lot of the stuff that has been done on this site revolved around the person doing the project. In other words it was what they wanted to do. Nothing wrong with that, but if we want to keep people interested and maybe get some more visitors we may consider catering to what other people want.

To hell if I know what that is though. :shrug:

I certainly have helped the "ProCoolingites are assholes". I have improved my webmanners considerably (at least IMO) over the last year however and have tried to reverse that a little. Although I still have a few outbreaks as ricecrispi knows.

I do think that drives people to the site however. People always want to see a show and we have done so in th past. In fact when these people get their ass handed to them they usually go to their home forums and cry like a bitch. That is like free advertising.

But being an asshole is probably not the best way to go about things.

Anyway I am glad to see Joe motivated to improve this site and gald to see pH take a break from WoW long enough to make a post or 2. Hell things are already looking up.

pHaestus · 08-26-2005, 02:47 PM

Well Jaydee I got REALLY burned out on testing waterblocks and so I decided to upgrade my test system for automation and begin testing kits. All hell broke loose then because all my problems/issues/to do lists are interconnected and when I have a little problem (like I cant get the $^%&% dP xmitter to work) then everything just comes to a halt. At that point I usually just go grab a beer and play WoW

jaydee · 08-26-2005, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Well Jaydee I got REALLY burned out on testing waterblocks and so I decided to upgrade my test system for automation and begin testing kits. All hell broke loose then because all my problems/issues/to do lists are interconnected and when I have a little problem (like I cant get the $^%&% dP xmitter to work) then everything just comes to a halt. At that point I usually just go grab a beer and play WoW

I completely understand man! Been there done that. I have faith man! Hell I been so stuck on this stupid BF2 editor I havn't got much else done.

mikoto · 08-26-2005, 03:23 PM

I don't know that I can speak to what most want but I can tell you how my interests have evolved, and what I look for.

In past years I went from stock cooling to high-end air. I got tired of the proverbial dust buster so I tried water cooling. I found that I could get a good balance of performance/noise and was happy as a pig in **** for a while. But with mysterious evaporation necessitating refilling, corrosion, various forms of gunk, outright leaks, etc.. I got sick of it and went back to air, but *quiet* air this time.

Now I am back to water but not for max performance, rather for max quiet, i.e. Reserator.
I have begun to spend some time over at silentpcreview.com and learned to decouple fans, suspend drives, etc.. and now have a much more pleasant computing experience. Much more elegant.

I still enjoy, *very* much the technical discussions I find here, and in fact that is the only reason I come here anymore. Just for the off chance that one of the more technical minded people will post something in the forums I can learn from.

My suggestion would be to begin to try to focus on the computing experience in a bit broader context. Focus on noise, ease of use, build quality, and still on performance as well. Cooling processors is not the only concern of many computer enthusiasts these days.
I want to know how quiet things are; Hard Drives, Optical Drives, Fans, Pumps. I also want to know how much power they consume, how much cooling they will require, how they perform, and in the case of Power Supplies, how effecient. We have people, current and past contributors, for whom acquiring and dissemenating this type of data would be relatively simple. I know, I know, accuracy, repeatability, standards, acquisition of equipment, etc.. No one is giving away free money, and time is money, I get it. I'm just relating what I think is possible.

I think that would find a larger target audience than just the narrowly focused, high-end technical development/testing types of threads and reviews we have enjoyed over the years. Definately do not neglect these areas but recognize and cater to the, for lack of a better word, ergonomic aspects of system design.

Water cooling is out growing the enthusiast and thereby shrinking your audience.
Just look at recent posts in this forum, where past major contributors are stating their reluctance to continue on with business as usual in the forums. What are you going to replace this type of contribution with?

If Cathar et.al. do not post their most interesting threads in a forum where I can read them, what reason do I have to read this forum at all? Just for sporadic testing of water blocks? The occasional amateur water block build thread? The "which pump is best for my setup" thread? I do think procooling is at a critical juncture.

Perhaps it is time, if you are serious, to expand the scope of what procooling deals with.
The real test is finding people who are willing to contribute consistently to various aspects of your future endeavors, reliably, and then delegating to them. Just like any organization has to do to meet consumer market demands. No one person will ever be able/willing to do stuff like this for long. They will burn out. I would volunteer for anything I can do, but honestly I have no background for this type of work. My background is in Psychology.

[/end rambling]

pdf27 · 08-26-2005, 06:11 PM

In my case I'm on ProCooling for two reasons:
1) Thermodynamics geekery - I actually find it quite interesting, and now I've graduated I don't really do any of that any more. ProCooling at least keeps me thinking about that sort of stuff.
2) Get as much theoretical and practical advice as I could for the watercooled system I've just built. It's a kind of hybrid of ProCooling and SPCR (and I do think there is a lot of potential for crossover between the two sites - a lot of users are common to both, and both sites often refer to each other in the forums at least), and is very, very quiet (loudest things in my room right now are the stereo transformer coils, TFT screen, flourescent lightbulb and PC. In that order).
The second part is where ProCooling is very good, simply because it doesn't appear to contain people who think they know what they are doing but don't. That is both rare and very useful indeed.

Ls7corvete · 08-26-2005, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee

One thing I noticed is a lot of the stuff that has been done on this site revolved around the person doing the project. In other words it was what they wanted to do. Nothing wrong with that, but if we want to keep people interested and maybe get some more visitors we may consider catering to what other people want.

To hell if I know what that is though. :shrug:

There is enough knowledgeable people and even representatives from manufactures lurking and contributing that we should be able to make changes in the industry that make performance cooling, mainly WCing, much more accessable to the mainstream users.

Not sure how to implement this yet but I have some ideas and I am sure that others do as well.

Etacovda · 08-26-2005, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdf27

The second part is where ProCooling is very good, simply because it doesn't appear to contain people who think they know what they are doing but don't. That is both rare and very useful indeed.

Indeed, I love that fact that i can come here, and hardly ever get halfway through reading a thread and think 'my god, why am i wasting my time reading this'. Theres generally value in every thread, and I like the fact that most of the time noone bothers answering the 'what should i buy for my new rigs cooling?!??!' threads; Theres enough spoon feeding at other sites.

To be honest, thats the main part im apprehensive about for the new site - an inrush of 'what should i buy?!' and people like Wing... I think that would end up driving the knowledgable away.

I tried to make a point to read 10x more than I post here, but you'll find that theres a group of people that does the opposite...

I think the single biggest thing that this site could do would be to make a database containing useful threads, reviews and information - but we all know how hard that is.

DryFire · 08-26-2005, 10:25 PM

I usually just lurk but I think that the higher level discussion and lack of general idiotic and spam threads. Of course I think most people (myself included) would like to see a little more activity.

I would like to see articles done for things other then extreme performance. Like low noise, low cost and perhaps ease of use.

It seems most people know where to find the very high end stuff, but it would be more of a challenge to build systems that perform well at certin price points. Like $100, $150, $200, etc... I think that would be unique. I always enjoy trying to piece together the best system possilble for a low price.

Some GPU block testing would be nice too.

jaydee · 08-27-2005, 04:28 PM

I think we need some Pro Projects for sure. One thing I have been wanting to do is build a small water cooled computer with enough power to play the latest games yet still quiet. I don't have the hard cash at the moment to do such a project but I think many people would be interested in it. I personally think the HTPC scene is complete waste of time and money but yet there are many interested folks. If someone could put together something like I described above but catered to HTPC I think that would be good. Lastly to go the opposite direction a power house computer chilled and OC'ed to the max.

Another thing lacking severely is hardware reviews. I can't remember when the last mobo or vid card review was?

Anyway just some more random thoughts between packing and BF2 mapping.

Ls7corvete · 08-27-2005, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee

I think we need some Pro Projects for sure. One thing I have been wanting to do is build a small water cooled computer with enough power to play the latest games yet still quiet. I don't have the hard cash at the moment to do such a project but I think many people would be interested in it. I personally think the HTPC scene is complete waste of time and money but yet there are many interested folks. If someone could put together something like I described above but catered to HTPC I think that would be good. Lastly to go the opposite direction a power house computer chilled and OC'ed to the max.

Another thing lacking severely is hardware reviews. I can't remember when the last mobo or vid card review was?

Anyway just some more random thoughts between packing and BF2 mapping.

ugh we need to stick to cooling. The hardware freaks really rub me the wrong way.

jaydee · 08-27-2005, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ls7corvete

ugh we need to stick to cooling. The hardware freaks really rub me the wrong way.

Then we just as well shut the site down. There is not nearly enough cooling stuff to keep a site active. One reason things have failed miserably around here lately IMO.

cotdt · 08-27-2005, 09:29 PM

We should focus on extreme but silent cooling, maybe even extreme passive cooling for HTPCs. I sure as hell am interested. People in other forums like SPCR don't have the hardware skills to make their dreams come true, but here people have a lot of real skills and knowledge.

Also what about memory cooling? Active cooling isn't enough for the memory I use, and they are packed so closely together it's hard to cool them. Ended up watercooling them, but it's another thing we can focus on.

I agree we should stick to cooling, because there is so much yet to be explored, although projects in general are interesting as well. Ideas that come to mind are chimney cooling and using subsonic 190dB sound to cool CPUs silently.

Also, what about building a miniture liquid nitrogen generator that fits inside the computer and is affordable, to ultracool the CPU? There is still a lot to explore, some impractical ideas like this one can be made practical as long as the theory works. Maybe even teach a pet squirrel to continuously blow on the CPU heatsink.

Last but not least thermosyphons are the future. Or at least they are my future, because I am madly in love with thermosyphons. I can't get my mind off of her and her friends.

jaydee · 08-27-2005, 11:29 PM

I personally think thermosyphons are rapidly getting over rated (and I have a good idea why..). The worst part about them is the gravity feed. This makes proper mounting a real bitch. You have no choice on how it need to mount because the condenser has to be above the evaporator. This leaves very little mounting possibilities. Probably why they are not already flooding the market as they have been used in OEM computers for years now. Hard to come up with a one size fits all. They are also limited on cooling capacity. Anyway what exactly did you have in mind with them here? What would you suggest we do about them?

Here is a very interesting article anyway: http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/paper...ermosyphon.pdf

Liquid Nitrogen Generator? I have seen you mention this before. You will have to explain exactly what your thinking here. From what I understand those generate Liquid Nitrogen. In other words make it... From what I understand those units are air cooled in order to do this. Is there some other type of liquid nitrogen generator that cools somehow as it is making liquid nitrogen?

Chimney cooling I just don't see any use for. It is much like bong cooling. Who wants a huge pipe sticking up around their computer? It is also failed as it needs heat source in the thing to make it work well. That is just counter productive. Let's not cool things by heating others up?

Cooling memory? What is there to discuss?

What exactly is extreme passive cooling?

Sound cooling? I always was interested in this. Especially combined with liquid cooling. I can see some possibilities here but still don't understand the process to well.

snowwie · 08-28-2005, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee

Then we just as well shut the site down. There is not nearly enough cooling stuff to keep a site active. One reason things have failed miserably around here lately IMO.

you guys are talking as if procooling has no niche

the site has no reason to try and shift to silence, or HTPC, or chillers with crazy overclocks, there are plenty of websites for each of those already

procooling, as long as i've been reading (~3 yrs) has been about PC watercooling component performance and discussion, and in the recent trend of less DIY and more mainstream, we are just realizing that the definition of performance isn't just temps anymore, it's noise, aesthetics, [market's perception?] etc

point is if PC watercooling has reached a halt (which it hasn't), then maybe the site may die or change dramatically. But it hasn't, it just isn't what you want it to be jd

cotdt · 08-28-2005, 03:26 AM

jd: a copper wick in a thermosyphon can allow it to do any orientation. it'll still be cheap in cost to produce. thanks for the wonderful link, that article gave me a new idea that i will try, and i'm sure i can build a more effective one than the weak thing they presented in the article. passive extreme HTPC cooling refers to peltiers cooled by thermosyphon cooled by large passive radiator which is the case itself. of course a large PSU needs to fit into the HTPC case. liquid ln2 idea is still just a dream at the moment. memory waterblocks have nothing to be discussed? where can i buy one? making one myself was PITA and i will never be a hardware freak ever again.

snowwie: in my opinion PC watercooling component performance and discussion is reaching a halt soon, because waterblocks are becoming very effective and don't really need to be much better. i don't even think you can get that much better, but that's just from what i know. pumps just need to be more quiet and radiators are now designed for quiet in mind. there doesn't seem to be much new to ask for as far as conventional watercooling goes. however, cooling in general and alternative watercooling is really interesting because there is still a lot that needs to be developed and stuff no one has ever even thought of. so i think a slight shift toward trying new ideas would make procooling more interesting.

i already have the ideal quiet/performance watercooling setup for my computer and don't really care about new conventional watercooling products. i love my setup so much that at night i put my waterblock on my forehead and cool myself to sleep.

jaydee · 08-28-2005, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowwie

you guys are talking as if procooling has no niche

the site has no reason to try and shift to silence, or HTPC, or chillers with crazy overclocks, there are plenty of websites for each of those already

procooling, as long as i've been reading (~3 yrs) has been about PC watercooling component performance and discussion, and in the recent trend of less DIY and more mainstream, we are just realizing that the definition of performance isn't just temps anymore, it's noise, aesthetics, [market's perception?] etc

point is if PC watercooling has reached a halt (which it hasn't), then maybe the site may die or change dramatically. But it hasn't, it just isn't what you want it to be jd

I completely fail to see your logic. If the site isn't going to expand into other areas it will be dead like it is now. How many posts were made yesterday? Hardly any...

And what do you mean water cooling isn't what I want it to be? That makes no sense. :shrug: I just think we talk big around here about what works and what doesn't yet we have no working examples of all that we talk about. Hence the projects to not only prove our theory's work but also help others learn why it works.

cotdt: I don't think wicks work in thermalsyphons. Havn't seen anything to suggest they do.

LPorc · 08-28-2005, 03:29 PM

I came here for knowledge and drank deeply.

As far as mainstream goes, ProCooling was both for the modding enthusiast and the hardcore fringe, and the more casual audience of those that pondered perhaps trying their hand at it. Now that there are more affordable and better components available they can try with bought components. Really, how many folks even own a drill press let alone a CNC Mill? When a decent CPU block can be had for less than USD$50 why buy not buy a block rather than the tools? The primary participant was the audience, the actors folks posting worklogs and doing the things the audience didn't have the means to do.

What I see having changed is the attitude. There has been a cancer here that seems to have mostly gone in remission, but is none-the-less worrisome. That cancer is elitism. Folks come up with ideas or do projects, and the response is to quickly point out the shortcomings. There were too many folks here obsessed with some imaginary state-of-the-art performance criteria for water cooling, and any component that fell short of that obsession was instantly met with criticism. If anything, the ghetto roots of the hobby were forgotten, and the answer "Because I can" to the question of "Why would you want to do that?" was no longer good enough. Now folks are scared to try anything, or at least to share.

Let's see some more of the real world. You know, windowless cases and cardboard external radiator boxes wedged between the bookshelf and the desk. More copper end cap blocks. More reservoirs in old buried propane cylinders. Let's celebrate the cheese and embrace the kitsch. ProCooling isn't about being in the mainstream, nor is it about redefining the mainstream. Mainstream is stock cooling. Here, as long as it cools better than stock in some way (temps, sound, cost, looks, whatever!), anything goes.

Ls7corvete · 08-28-2005, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LPorc

I came here for knowledge and drank deeply.

As far as mainstream goes, ProCooling was both for the modding enthusiast and the hardcore fringe, and the more casual audience of those that pondered perhaps trying their hand at it. Now that there are more affordable and better components available they can try with bought components. Really, how many folks even own a drill press let alone a CNC Mill? When a decent CPU block can be had for less than USD$50 why buy not buy a block rather than the tools? The primary participant was the audience, the actors folks posting worklogs and doing the things the audience didn't have the means to do.

What I see having changed is the attitude. There has been a cancer here that seems to have mostly gone in remission, but is none-the-less worrisome. That cancer is elitism. Folks come up with ideas or do projects, and the response is to quickly point out the shortcomings. There were too many folks here obsessed with some imaginary state-of-the-art performance criteria for water cooling, and any component that fell short of that obsession was instantly met with criticism. If anything, the ghetto roots of the hobby were forgotten, and the answer "Because I can" to the question of "Why would you want to do that?" was no longer good enough. Now folks are scared to try anything, or at least to share.

Let's see some more of the real world. You know, windowless cases and cardboard external radiator boxes wedged between the bookshelf and the desk. More copper end cap blocks. More reservoirs in old buried propane cylinders. Let's celebrate the cheese and embrace the kitsch. ProCooling isn't about being in the mainstream, nor is it about redefining the mainstream. Mainstream is stock cooling. Here, as long as it cools better than stock in some way (temps, sound, cost, looks, whatever!), anything goes.

Lol I agree.

I also wanna see the community working together to make all areas better. There have been several people voicing up for silent cooling, gaming cooling, cheap cooling, DIY cooling etc etc. I Lporc mentioned elitism and I can totaly see that, that is what I hate about hardware guys, alot of the forums end up with two catagories, whats the "best" and everything else. Thats not what I want to see happen with cooling.

jaydee · 08-28-2005, 08:03 PM

Good points LPorc and Ls7corvete. I was hoping more people would jump in here with points like that. I really think it goes a lot deeper than elitism however. Computers have evolved to the point that there is hardly any real enthusiasts anymore. Mobo's and vid cards overclock them selfs these days for Christ sake. I find very little reason why anyone would attempt ghetto stuff anymore. Hell when I started OC'ing I bought a brand new Asus A7V (not the 133!) and a Duron 600. Them was the days! To hell with cases and crap. I had that baby up on a custom made plywood table with custom high quality cardboard ducting with the finest $ store duck tape! Had the rad sucking in the cold winter air and OC'ed that thing to 900+ mhz crunching SETI. I built my first WB on that system. A 2"x2"x2" chunk of aluminum with a simple double cross drill. I used a couple strips of brass for hold down. I had the highest of quality Harbor Freight $10 200GPH at 0 head pump and a transmission oil cooler.

I honestly never had so much fun with computers in my life. Next thing I knew I had 5 comps crunching SETI and was building water cooling parts for all of them, even bought my CNC mill to do so. Hell one year I had 3 comps on one loop all with no cases and all sitting on top of one of those fold out tables. I believe that as the year I discovered this site as well.

We used to have to actually CUT the case and put our own window in the thing. Now just about every case on the planet has one. Lights? I remember guys custom making them. Now you can buy then if they are not already installed. Why do something yourself if you can buy it for less and have better quality for the most part?

Back then you had to work to OC as well. Now all you have to do is make a few key strokes in the bios and the bios will overclock for you. Hell I OC'ed my FX5500 today with coolbits2 and all I had to do was hit a button and it overclocked the damn thing for me.

I just don't find it fun anymore. I require a challenge and there just isn't any. I browse many hardware forums and really don't see anything like I used to do anymore either so it isn't just this site. All the hardcore enthusiasts that I learned from gave it up long ago and have moved on. Now days the majority of the posts are what kit to buy or what parts to get as opposed to how should I build this block and what heater core to mod.

I have also evolved. I am no more wanting to OC as I find no fun or reason to do so. I now would rather have a small computer nearly hidden and quiet yet still have enough power to play the latest games somewhat well. I see a lot more people wanting similar.

I will agree there is a lot of "why bother" that goes on and we do have somewhat of a "state-of-the-art performance criteria". Why? because we been there and done that!

So my question is what's next?

bigben2k · 08-28-2005, 09:06 PM

I think that the challenge left is in the control circuits.

LPorc · 08-28-2005, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee

So my question is what's next?

I have also evolved. I am no more wanting to OC as I find no fun or reason to do so. I now would rather have a small computer nearly hidden and quiet yet still have enough power to play the latest games somewhat well. I see a lot more people wanting similar.

Jaydee, what's next is the doing.

List out the criteria, talk about it, gather ideas, make some decisions, start a build and a worklog with some text and pictures. Inspire others by showing them the possibilities. Let others borrow from your imagination and methods, and add and share their own twists.

It starts with a goal and moves forward from there. What we need to do is get those goals documented and share the journey to minimize the snubbery from the folks that have different goals in mind. That's part of the problem, the elitism is not a matter of arrogance, but a matter of differing goals and values. We've all evolved, often in different directions, and some folks are at different places on the evolutionary path.

Let's have some monster overclock anything goes systems, some systems that make a pin drop sound loud, some systems that make a loaf of bread look huge, some that are works of art, some that are works of ingenius ghetto functionality. You get the idea. The important part is the goal needs to be stated up front, and the decisions and discussion tied back to those goals.

I'd much rather see "I chose the 3/8 inch block x because of the blocks price, relatively decent low flow performance for the small and quiet pump I am using, and the smaller tubing works out better for routing in the small form factor I am working in" up front instead of seeing "3/8? Block x? Weak-ass pump? Geeze, what a n00ber. That company makes crap. Might as well go with air." State the goals and rationale for choices and move the arguments over the relative merits of noise, best possible temps, size, etc off to their own threads.

ProCooling has been instrumental in the process of helping better performance within the community. What we need to do now is recognize that performance means different things to different people.

Maybe come up with a questionaire/form to begin each worklog and as an aid for folks in figuring out their own design goals and priorities. Hell, that could even grow to include some recommendations and rules of thumb for certain areas. Say something like a 1-5 scale for size, overclockability, temps, bling, cost, etc. with a few example systems or components. Center the discussion around the choices and the best way to meet those goals.

Etacovda · 08-28-2005, 09:19 PM

"I have also evolved. I am no more wanting to OC as I find no fun or reason to do so. I now would rather have a small computer nearly hidden and quiet yet still have enough power to play the latest games somewhat well. I see a lot more people wanting similar."

yep, this is my exact personal aim for my main system. I want all the power of a regular comp without knowing theres even a tower there...

snowwie · 08-28-2005, 09:48 PM

jd i meant that PC watercooling isn't DIY anymore like it used to be. i can buy a kit that will do just what i want, so DIY is less popular today. in fact there is almost NO reason to go DIY anymore, with the availability of PC watercooling components that suit nearly ALL enthusiasts' needs.

I am possibly gonna built a Dry Ice chilled loop in the near future, i got it all figured out, and the only thing I may learn in the process is whether or not my laing DDC will survive (i think it will). and I think I may get a chance to experiment with fluids at sub-zero temps but i think i am settled on ethanol. but the project will probably be of little value to procooling...

08-26-2005, 01:30 PM	#1
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	So Lets talk websites, the cooling scene, etc... Well most of you know (or not...) that I sorta gave up on ProCooling nearly 2 years ago. Well not really gave up, just got busy with other stuff. In that time pH did a pretty damn nice job with stuff being posted, reader counts going up and up, it was nice. Then WoW happened (for pH and like a billion other geeks), and the stupid software we used to manage the site just became too much of a burden and everything sorta stopped on the site. The brakes really got hit like 6 months ago or so. Since then reader counts have dropped to pretty much the lower levels we have seen ever, the site hasn’t been updated (last article is nearly 2 years old), and the forums were left to be the sole place the site was still maintained. Well Shit... My other ventures are over now, I have some spare time, and since I walked away from ProCooling I have learned quite a bit about business, web design, web programming, etc... So instead of just talking I am pretty motivated to get ProCooling back rocking. With pH's testing prowess, My sarcastic self deprecating wit and attention to detail, I am all about moving ProCooling back into the way it was in the previous years (when we actually did work). Heck even Unaclocker is going to write an article! We need staff, we need sponsors, we need to find where the cooling scene really is now. I know its pretty much 95% mainstream to water cool now it seems, so the Niche shouldn’t be that small anymore. But on the flip side, now the NEED for this kind of cooling is also going down rapidly. Overclocking isn’t a primary need for many people because the current high end machines are very under worked most of the time. But silent cooling is something that becomes more and more important when it comes to HTPC's (and powerful HTPC's at that), Home PC's in smaller cases that need to be cooled effectively yet silently, etc... As far as the website goes, one of the key things that I am pushing for is making the website more about the community than the people who run the site. As with the forums pH, Brian, and myself are hardly the focal points of stuff in the forum, we are more just the care takers of the zoo. Unlike before - I am pretty motivated to get this thing rocking again, get some new sponsors, get some new light on this old site (in tech site timelines, its pretty old now going on 6 years come December) . We are looking for people to come onboard to help out, we are looking for moderators for the forums (for the workBlogs and such when they come online), and overall just people to help spread the word. I know we are seen as assholes by the less than smart in the world.. and since there are LOTS of stupid people, it sort of alienates us... but ** it theres more smart ones out there than stupid ones... I HOPE!. __________________ Joe** - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

08-26-2005, 01:56 PM	#2
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Joe one thing we talked about over beer the other day I really think you should do: Get a mainstream kit from Cooltechnica or Swiftech or something and watercool one of your rigs with it. Provide some perspective on how different things are now vs. when you were using all diy stuff. Point out ways that old problems have been solved, and point out areas that still need improvement. Since you haven't built a wcing system in a good long while but you still know your shit I think that it would be an interesting way to get a qualified person to look at how things are going with commercial wcing today. __________________ Getting paid like a biker with the best crank... -MF DOOM

08-26-2005, 02:47 PM	#4
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Well Jaydee I got REALLY burned out on testing waterblocks and so I decided to upgrade my test system for automation and begin testing kits. All hell broke loose then because all my problems/issues/to do lists are interconnected and when I have a little problem (like I cant get the $^%&% dP xmitter to work) then everything just comes to a halt. At that point I usually just go grab a beer and play WoW __________________ Getting paid like a biker with the best crank... -MF DOOM

08-26-2005, 03:23 PM	#6
mikoto Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: smog Posts: 47	I don't know that I can speak to what most want but I can tell you how my interests have evolved, and what I look for. In past years I went from stock cooling to high-end air. I got tired of the proverbial dust buster so I tried water cooling. I found that I could get a good balance of performance/noise and was happy as a pig in **** for a while. But with mysterious evaporation necessitating refilling, corrosion, various forms of gunk, outright leaks, etc.. I got sick of it and went back to air, but quiet air this time. Now I am back to water but not for max performance, rather for max quiet, i.e. Reserator. I have begun to spend some time over at silentpcreview.com and learned to decouple fans, suspend drives, etc.. and now have a much more pleasant computing experience. Much more elegant. I still enjoy, very much the technical discussions I find here, and in fact that is the only reason I come here anymore. Just for the off chance that one of the more technical minded people will post something in the forums I can learn from. My suggestion would be to begin to try to focus on the computing experience in a bit broader context. Focus on noise, ease of use, build quality, and still on performance as well. Cooling processors is not the only concern of many computer enthusiasts these days. I want to know how quiet things are; Hard Drives, Optical Drives, Fans, Pumps. I also want to know how much power they consume, how much cooling they will require, how they perform, and in the case of Power Supplies, how effecient. We have people, current and past contributors, for whom acquiring and dissemenating this type of data would be relatively simple. I know, I know, accuracy, repeatability, standards, acquisition of equipment, etc.. No one is giving away free money, and time is money, I get it. I'm just relating what I think is possible. I think that would find a larger target audience than just the narrowly focused, high-end technical development/testing types of threads and reviews we have enjoyed over the years. Definately do not neglect these areas but recognize and cater to the, for lack of a better word, ergonomic aspects of system design. Water cooling is out growing the enthusiast and thereby shrinking your audience. Just look at recent posts in this forum, where past major contributors are stating their reluctance to continue on with business as usual in the forums. What are you going to replace this type of contribution with? If Cathar et.al. do not post their most interesting threads in a forum where I can read them, what reason do I have to read this forum at all? Just for sporadic testing of water blocks? The occasional amateur water block build thread? The "which pump is best for my setup" thread? I do think procooling is at a critical juncture. Perhaps it is time, if you are serious, to expand the scope of what procooling deals with. The real test is finding people who are willing to contribute consistently to various aspects of your future endeavors, reliably, and then delegating to them. Just like any organization has to do to meet consumer market demands. No one person will ever be able/willing to do stuff like this for long. They will burn out. I would volunteer for anything I can do, but honestly I have no background for this type of work. My background is in Psychology. [/end rambling] __________________ "I hate people faggoting up my forums to no good end..." --pH

08-26-2005, 06:11 PM	#7
pdf27 Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Horsham, UK Posts: 140	In my case I'm on ProCooling for two reasons: 1) Thermodynamics geekery - I actually find it quite interesting, and now I've graduated I don't really do any of that any more. ProCooling at least keeps me thinking about that sort of stuff. 2) Get as much theoretical and practical advice as I could for the watercooled system I've just built. It's a kind of hybrid of ProCooling and SPCR (and I do think there is a lot of potential for crossover between the two sites - a lot of users are common to both, and both sites often refer to each other in the forums at least), and is very, very quiet (loudest things in my room right now are the stereo transformer coils, TFT screen, flourescent lightbulb and PC. In that order). The second part is where ProCooling is very good, simply because it doesn't appear to contain people who think they know what they are doing but don't. That is both rare and very useful indeed. __________________ Member of the paramilitary wing of CAMRA

08-26-2005, 02:23 PM	#3
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	One thing I noticed is a lot of the stuff that has been done on this site revolved around the person doing the project. In other words it was what they wanted to do. Nothing wrong with that, but if we want to keep people interested and maybe get some more visitors we may consider catering to what other people want. To hell if I know what that is though. :shrug: I certainly have helped the "ProCoolingites are assholes". I have improved my webmanners considerably (at least IMO) over the last year however and have tried to reverse that a little. Although I still have a few outbreaks as ricecrispi knows. I do think that drives people to the site however. People always want to see a show and we have done so in th past. In fact when these people get their ass handed to them they usually go to their home forums and cry like a bitch. That is like free advertising. But being an asshole is probably not the best way to go about things. Anyway I am glad to see Joe motivated to improve this site and gald to see pH take a break from WoW long enough to make a post or 2. Hell things are already looking up.

08-26-2005, 10:25 PM	#10
DryFire Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 148	I usually just lurk but I think that the higher level discussion and lack of general idiotic and spam threads. Of course I think most people (myself included) would like to see a little more activity. I would like to see articles done for things other then extreme performance. Like low noise, low cost and perhaps ease of use. It seems most people know where to find the very high end stuff, but it would be more of a challenge to build systems that perform well at certin price points. Like $100, $150, $200, etc... I think that would be unique. I always enjoy trying to piece together the best system possilble for a low price. Some GPU block testing would be nice too.

08-27-2005, 04:28 PM	#11
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I think we need some Pro Projects for sure. One thing I have been wanting to do is build a small water cooled computer with enough power to play the latest games yet still quiet. I don't have the hard cash at the moment to do such a project but I think many people would be interested in it. I personally think the HTPC scene is complete waste of time and money but yet there are many interested folks. If someone could put together something like I described above but catered to HTPC I think that would be good. Lastly to go the opposite direction a power house computer chilled and OC'ed to the max. Another thing lacking severely is hardware reviews. I can't remember when the last mobo or vid card review was? Anyway just some more random thoughts between packing and BF2 mapping.

08-27-2005, 09:29 PM	#14
cotdt Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: CALIFORNIA Posts: 50	We should focus on extreme but silent cooling, maybe even extreme passive cooling for HTPCs. I sure as hell am interested. People in other forums like SPCR don't have the hardware skills to make their dreams come true, but here people have a lot of real skills and knowledge. Also what about memory cooling? Active cooling isn't enough for the memory I use, and they are packed so closely together it's hard to cool them. Ended up watercooling them, but it's another thing we can focus on. I agree we should stick to cooling, because there is so much yet to be explored, although projects in general are interesting as well. Ideas that come to mind are chimney cooling and using subsonic 190dB sound to cool CPUs silently. Also, what about building a miniture liquid nitrogen generator that fits inside the computer and is affordable, to ultracool the CPU? There is still a lot to explore, some impractical ideas like this one can be made practical as long as the theory works. Maybe even teach a pet squirrel to continuously blow on the CPU heatsink. Last but not least thermosyphons are the future. Or at least they are my future, because I am madly in love with thermosyphons. I can't get my mind off of her and her friends. __________________ SilentPCReview.com Silence = no fans, no harddrive

08-27-2005, 11:29 PM	#15
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I personally think thermosyphons are rapidly getting over rated (and I have a good idea why..). The worst part about them is the gravity feed. This makes proper mounting a real bitch. You have no choice on how it need to mount because the condenser has to be above the evaporator. This leaves very little mounting possibilities. Probably why they are not already flooding the market as they have been used in OEM computers for years now. Hard to come up with a one size fits all. They are also limited on cooling capacity. Anyway what exactly did you have in mind with them here? What would you suggest we do about them? Here is a very interesting article anyway: http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/paper...ermosyphon.pdf Liquid Nitrogen Generator? I have seen you mention this before. You will have to explain exactly what your thinking here. From what I understand those generate Liquid Nitrogen. In other words make it... From what I understand those units are air cooled in order to do this. Is there some other type of liquid nitrogen generator that cools somehow as it is making liquid nitrogen? Chimney cooling I just don't see any use for. It is much like bong cooling. Who wants a huge pipe sticking up around their computer? It is also failed as it needs heat source in the thing to make it work well. That is just counter productive. Let's not cool things by heating others up? Cooling memory? What is there to discuss? What exactly is extreme passive cooling? Sound cooling? I always was interested in this. Especially combined with liquid cooling. I can see some possibilities here but still don't understand the process to well.

08-28-2005, 03:26 AM	#17
cotdt Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: CALIFORNIA Posts: 50	jd: a copper wick in a thermosyphon can allow it to do any orientation. it'll still be cheap in cost to produce. thanks for the wonderful link, that article gave me a new idea that i will try, and i'm sure i can build a more effective one than the weak thing they presented in the article. passive extreme HTPC cooling refers to peltiers cooled by thermosyphon cooled by large passive radiator which is the case itself. of course a large PSU needs to fit into the HTPC case. liquid ln2 idea is still just a dream at the moment. memory waterblocks have nothing to be discussed? where can i buy one? making one myself was PITA and i will never be a hardware freak ever again. snowwie: in my opinion PC watercooling component performance and discussion is reaching a halt soon, because waterblocks are becoming very effective and don't really need to be much better. i don't even think you can get that much better, but that's just from what i know. pumps just need to be more quiet and radiators are now designed for quiet in mind. there doesn't seem to be much new to ask for as far as conventional watercooling goes. however, cooling in general and alternative watercooling is really interesting because there is still a lot that needs to be developed and stuff no one has ever even thought of. so i think a slight shift toward trying new ideas would make procooling more interesting. i already have the ideal quiet/performance watercooling setup for my computer and don't really care about new conventional watercooling products. i love my setup so much that at night i put my waterblock on my forehead and cool myself to sleep. __________________ SilentPCReview.com Silence = no fans, no harddrive

08-28-2005, 03:29 PM	#19
LPorc Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 66	I came here for knowledge and drank deeply. As far as mainstream goes, ProCooling was both for the modding enthusiast and the hardcore fringe, and the more casual audience of those that pondered perhaps trying their hand at it. Now that there are more affordable and better components available they can try with bought components. Really, how many folks even own a drill press let alone a CNC Mill? When a decent CPU block can be had for less than USD$50 why buy not buy a block rather than the tools? The primary participant was the audience, the actors folks posting worklogs and doing the things the audience didn't have the means to do. What I see having changed is the attitude. There has been a cancer here that seems to have mostly gone in remission, but is none-the-less worrisome. That cancer is elitism. Folks come up with ideas or do projects, and the response is to quickly point out the shortcomings. There were too many folks here obsessed with some imaginary state-of-the-art performance criteria for water cooling, and any component that fell short of that obsession was instantly met with criticism. If anything, the ghetto roots of the hobby were forgotten, and the answer "Because I can" to the question of "Why would you want to do that?" was no longer good enough. Now folks are scared to try anything, or at least to share. Let's see some more of the real world. You know, windowless cases and cardboard external radiator boxes wedged between the bookshelf and the desk. More copper end cap blocks. More reservoirs in old buried propane cylinders. Let's celebrate the cheese and embrace the kitsch. ProCooling isn't about being in the mainstream, nor is it about redefining the mainstream. Mainstream is stock cooling. Here, as long as it cools better than stock in some way (temps, sound, cost, looks, whatever!), anything goes.

08-28-2005, 08:03 PM	#21
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Good points LPorc and Ls7corvete. I was hoping more people would jump in here with points like that. I really think it goes a lot deeper than elitism however. Computers have evolved to the point that there is hardly any real enthusiasts anymore. Mobo's and vid cards overclock them selfs these days for Christ sake. I find very little reason why anyone would attempt ghetto stuff anymore. Hell when I started OC'ing I bought a brand new Asus A7V (not the 133!) and a Duron 600. Them was the days! To hell with cases and crap. I had that baby up on a custom made plywood table with custom high quality cardboard ducting with the finest $ store duck tape! Had the rad sucking in the cold winter air and OC'ed that thing to 900+ mhz crunching SETI. I built my first WB on that system. A 2"x2"x2" chunk of aluminum with a simple double cross drill. I used a couple strips of brass for hold down. I had the highest of quality Harbor Freight $10 200GPH at 0 head pump and a transmission oil cooler. I honestly never had so much fun with computers in my life. Next thing I knew I had 5 comps crunching SETI and was building water cooling parts for all of them, even bought my CNC mill to do so. Hell one year I had 3 comps on one loop all with no cases and all sitting on top of one of those fold out tables. I believe that as the year I discovered this site as well. We used to have to actually CUT the case and put our own window in the thing. Now just about every case on the planet has one. Lights? I remember guys custom making them. Now you can buy then if they are not already installed. Why do something yourself if you can buy it for less and have better quality for the most part? Back then you had to work to OC as well. Now all you have to do is make a few key strokes in the bios and the bios will overclock for you. Hell I OC'ed my FX5500 today with coolbits2 and all I had to do was hit a button and it overclocked the damn thing for me. I just don't find it fun anymore. I require a challenge and there just isn't any. I browse many hardware forums and really don't see anything like I used to do anymore either so it isn't just this site. All the hardcore enthusiasts that I learned from gave it up long ago and have moved on. Now days the majority of the posts are what kit to buy or what parts to get as opposed to how should I build this block and what heater core to mod. I have also evolved. I am no more wanting to OC as I find no fun or reason to do so. I now would rather have a small computer nearly hidden and quiet yet still have enough power to play the latest games somewhat well. I see a lot more people wanting similar. I will agree there is a lot of "why bother" that goes on and we do have somewhat of a "state-of-the-art performance criteria". Why? because we been there and done that! So my question is what's next?

08-28-2005, 09:06 PM	#22
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I think that the challenge left is in the control circuits. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-28-2005, 09:19 PM	#24
Etacovda Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dunedin NZ Posts: 735	"I have also evolved. I am no more wanting to OC as I find no fun or reason to do so. I now would rather have a small computer nearly hidden and quiet yet still have enough power to play the latest games somewhat well. I see a lot more people wanting similar." yep, this is my exact personal aim for my main system. I want all the power of a regular comp without knowing theres even a tower there... __________________ Hypocritical Signature I tried to delete: Procooling: where scientific principles are ignored because big corporations are immune to mistakes and oversights.

08-28-2005, 09:48 PM	#25
snowwie Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 154	jd i meant that PC watercooling isn't DIY anymore like it used to be. i can buy a kit that will do just what i want, so DIY is less popular today. in fact there is almost NO reason to go DIY anymore, with the availability of PC watercooling components that suit nearly ALL enthusiasts' needs. I am possibly gonna built a Dry Ice chilled loop in the near future, i got it all figured out, and the only thing I may learn in the process is whether or not my laing DDC will survive (i think it will). and I think I may get a chance to experiment with fluids at sub-zero temps but i think i am settled on ethanol. but the project will probably be of little value to procooling...

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