radiator alternatives..

Axle · 10-21-2002, 08:34 PM

First off, I HATE noise!! I've had what's considered a very quiet computer for the last year[1.2 t-bird w/Thermosconic Thermoengine, no case fans, Vantec stelth in 400 watt powerman (made by sparkle), and GF4 cooler], and I wanna shoot it!!

I don't think I could take two (even shrouded) 120 Pana's at 7v on the radiator. But why have a radiator? A large enough res will work well enough, correct? I'm not OCing, I just want it stable and quiet. So here's the $5 question, how big?

I've seen pictures (although not explained) of "waterpoles", or just some 5" PVC white pipeing that you get at the Home Depot, stood up (about 3 or 4 feet of the stuff). This makes very little sense to me, but I like the concept. Standing it up would place an awfully large load on the pump anyway I look at it, but what's wrong with laying it down? Or maybe this isn't even a good idea at all; just some sort of large container. Whatever the res may be, does anyone think this is a good idea?

I gave up my whole dream of WCing a few months ago when I didn't have the money (although I got FANTASTIC help here last time, and I still apprechiate it!), but now I'm ready.

Please & thankyou, anyone have any ideas?

TIA,
~axle~

bigben2k · 10-21-2002, 08:58 PM

5 bucks, eh?

The res is not a substitute for a rad. The water temp would slowly climb, and climb, and climb... until the pool of water can dissipate as much heat into the air, as the CPU is putting in the water. Can you see the vapor?

Unfortunately, there are still fans, in most watercooled rigs. If you're on a budget, I'm not going to suggest the watercooled PSU mod...

I will however suggest modding the fans inside the PSU, with the 7 volt mod, or even simpler (and perhaps safer), add a rheostat to lower those fan speeds.

As for the radiator, I'm still toying with the idea of using a sqirrel cage blower, instead of axial fans (commonly found types). It should provide a very high flow, with very little noise.

In your case, shrouding should do you. Add some rubber mounts here and there, and you should be happy.

In any case, controlling the fan speed is probably going to be the single best service that you can do yourself.

Need a link?

BTW, the tall pipe cooling thing is a bong. Unless you don't mind the continous shower sound, it'll work OK.

gmat · 10-22-2002, 02:28 AM

If you *really* hate noise, and want a total silent config, then you need either watercooling, or fanless solutions.
- total watercooling: can be expensive, but very efficient. You can use a rad big enough (and design accordingly) to be passively cooled, i.e. it will need no fan. You will have to mount it outside the case.
- fanless components: Zalman make CPU, GPU and NB fanless heatsinks, that work quite well. Their latest GPU double-heatsink (connected with a heatpipe) looks great.
Since you are in USA you should check out TK Power PSU (available at silicon acoustics, for example), it's fanless...
Do not forget to suspend / insulate your HDD.

Finally a good site for silent PC zealots:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/

g.l.amour · 10-22-2002, 03:09 AM

hmm, i remember a site of a bloke who put a large pressure vat at +/- 6 feet under the ground. some pumpage and tubage, and he had coolant at +/- 10°C all year round. i can imagine it is not the most practical solution, but hey a 50l res isn't too practical either, and in the pressure vat case (can offcourse be any type of res) u got suppreme cooling. and in both cases , u ai'nt going nowhere with your pc.

anyone might remember that article that has some link? it looked awesome.

MadDogMe · 10-22-2002, 03:19 AM

Bladerunner, look for fanless.co.uk (or.com). he's actualy in the uk!, I thought it'd be the Netherlands or somewhere, but no, dig deep enough and you'll find a cool spot...

gmat · 10-22-2002, 03:45 AM

BladeRunner at zero fan zone:
http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk

MadDogMe · 10-22-2002, 05:50 AM

Here's a cute little evaporative cooler, nice and quiete...
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...hreadid=105411

Axle · 10-22-2002, 09:22 PM

Yeah.... I've been reading bladerunner's stealth project since it was up.... he's my idol

He's one of the reasons I've been rather excited about going with a huge res...not possible I now know, which is good (thanks bigben2k). I read the passively cooled rad article at overclockers.com...seemed mighty compliciated, no? I don't think I've got the skills for that kind of project. Anyone know where I might find a huge rad that might work for this though?

As for HDs, I'd ditching these two WDs in favor of a larger Segate IV, which I will mount in a 5 1/4. Ought to quiet things down a bit, right? Hew!! Those PSUs sure are expensive!! I've had very good luck with my 400watt/stealth (although I'd like to swtich it out for a pana), though. It's inaudible over everything else.

Zalman does make some pretty great stuff, I've got one of their Flowers on another system; works quite well. But for a GF4? That thing's making me deaf, which is why I wanted to go water. I don't know of any quite GF4 coolers at all, ?

Thanks for the great links, everyone, I havn't been to some of those sites in a long while (bookmarks are a mess!).

And MAN! do I feel like an idiot. Can't tell a bong cooler from the underside of a bus. And no, I'm not thinking my room mate would apprechiate vapor comming off a white pole in the middle of the room all day either(unfortunely :[)

I'm looking in on this passivly cooled radiator now, but does anyone have any thoughts?

mfpmax · 10-22-2002, 09:32 PM

http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenT...5&m=4100930635

nicozeg · 10-23-2002, 01:32 PM

Since my rad starts leaking about 6 month ago I`ve been using the exact "no bucks, no noise" solution you asked for; Just a five gallon water bucket with the pump suspended inside.

My cpu is a duron 1000 @ 1400 1.9V. when I turn it on the water temp start rising about 2.5ºC/hour, until it stabilices arround 30. The highest I`ve ever seen was 32, in a floating "analog" termometer I have in there.

This "miracle" is only the combined job between natural convection, radiation and evaporation. Every week I need to refill about two quarts of water. In part I`m lucky to live in a dry climate. If that`s not your case your stable temp should be higher, but not to much, because convection and radiation become more efficient as temp difference with ambient increases.

I`m sure this is not an elegant solution, and sure that with a decent heatercore I could overclock more, but I`m used to the low noise; Now my ps fan at 6v is driving me crazy!

Pritorian · 10-23-2002, 03:52 PM

Hi guy´s

I saw this littel trick on www.overklokking.no (norwegian) & it´s posted at www.overclokers.com too.. check it out maybe something usefull here?

hmmmmmm....

here´s the link... http://www.overclockers.com/tips1011/

Would it work for your needs maybe?

gmat · 10-23-2002, 05:31 PM

Ghetto but efficient, indeed. There's also that guy at ZZZ (http://zzz.com.ru/119.html) who built his case in a copper tube frame, which itself serves as a radiator... Nice and silent.

Kevin · 10-23-2002, 05:47 PM

Back in the day, before watercooling was very mainstream, OverclockersHideout sold radiator-less kits. In fact, a radiator wasn''t considered "standard" at that time. The first kit that came out with a radiator was BECooling's original Aquastealth with rubber hose (my first jump into watercooling

).
Anyhow back to my point, water temps will not just climb and climb and climb. They will increase and eventually plane off, depending on what your air temps are, etc. The way that OverclockersHideout did it was by having a large igloo cooler with a sumbersible pump in it. there would be an in line and an out line and go into the PC, hooking up to the H2O block. The thing to keep in is that at that time, CPUs were not putting out as much heat as they are now and that this solution is only mildy better than aircooling. To be effective, you'd have to bury a reservoir underground or just have a huge tank that you use. Something to consider would be a large reservoir (igloo cooler size) and a small radiator with a fan on 5V. I still don't feel that it is overall a good solution.
-Kevin

Axle · 10-25-2002, 04:47 PM

First off, THANKS everyone!!! And sorry for not responding earlier, I've just been swamped :[

Pritorian, I've seen that a few times; it may just be a bit too ghetto for me

After reading that link, mfpmax, I was thinking about copper tubeing (gmat), and still am a bit, but after reading your post, nicozeg, I relaized I've got the PERFECT thing.

It's an old bucket I got abroad, been dragging it around for years; it looks like it holds 2.5-3 gallons, is PURE 1/8" copper, and I have two of them. These sound good?

If y'all think it's ok, I'm going to start ordering guts.

THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE!!! Really, thanks

Axle · 10-27-2002, 06:36 PM

Hey, how about painting this thing? Big copper bucket-- do you think paint would decrease it's convection powers? Spray paint, I mean. If so, are there any brands that wouldn't?

peregrine · 10-27-2002, 11:25 PM

Instead of a rad, use a length of copper pipe curved into a spiral or helix, like done here. With a strong enough pump you could be able to use enough pipe to eliminate the need for fans.

nicozeg · 10-28-2002, 08:08 PM

Painting will be ok, it don’t have any effect on convection, and should improve radiation a lot, where copper is weak. The best color for painting is silver; it can emit radiation but don’t absorb anything because it’s reflective capability. Second to it comes white; the worst is black because it absorbs anything received.

That container you speak seems good; I guess it’s heavy being pure thick copper. It could be easy to improve its natural convection capability by soldering vertical copper fins to it.

10-21-2002, 08:34 PM	#1
Axle Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Wind Gap, PA Posts: 112	radiator alternatives.. First off, I HATE noise!! I've had what's considered a very quiet computer for the last year[1.2 t-bird w/Thermosconic Thermoengine, no case fans, Vantec stelth in 400 watt powerman (made by sparkle), and GF4 cooler], and I wanna shoot it!! I don't think I could take two (even shrouded) 120 Pana's at 7v on the radiator. But why have a radiator? A large enough res will work well enough, correct? I'm not OCing, I just want it stable and quiet. So here's the $5 question, how big? I've seen pictures (although not explained) of "waterpoles", or just some 5" PVC white pipeing that you get at the Home Depot, stood up (about 3 or 4 feet of the stuff). This makes very little sense to me, but I like the concept. Standing it up would place an awfully large load on the pump anyway I look at it, but what's wrong with laying it down? Or maybe this isn't even a good idea at all; just some sort of large container. Whatever the res may be, does anyone think this is a good idea? I gave up my whole dream of WCing a few months ago when I didn't have the money (although I got FANTASTIC help here last time, and I still apprechiate it!), but now I'm ready. Please & thankyou, anyone have any ideas? TIA, ~axle~

10-21-2002, 08:58 PM	#2
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	5 bucks, eh? The res is not a substitute for a rad. The water temp would slowly climb, and climb, and climb... until the pool of water can dissipate as much heat into the air, as the CPU is putting in the water. Can you see the vapor? Unfortunately, there are still fans, in most watercooled rigs. If you're on a budget, I'm not going to suggest the watercooled PSU mod... I will however suggest modding the fans inside the PSU, with the 7 volt mod, or even simpler (and perhaps safer), add a rheostat to lower those fan speeds. As for the radiator, I'm still toying with the idea of using a sqirrel cage blower, instead of axial fans (commonly found types). It should provide a very high flow, with very little noise. In your case, shrouding should do you. Add some rubber mounts here and there, and you should be happy. In any case, controlling the fan speed is probably going to be the single best service that you can do yourself. Need a link? BTW, the tall pipe cooling thing is a bong. Unless you don't mind the continous shower sound, it'll work OK. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

10-22-2002, 09:32 PM	#9
mfpmax Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rockledge,FL,US Posts: 731	http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenT...5&m=4100930635 __________________ My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz

10-23-2002, 03:52 PM	#11
Pritorian Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 201	Hi guy´s I saw this littel trick on www.overklokking.no (norwegian) & it´s posted at www.overclokers.com too.. check it out maybe something usefull here? hmmmmmm.... here´s the link... http://www.overclockers.com/tips1011/ Would it work for your needs maybe? __________________ Boo!

10-23-2002, 05:47 PM	#13
Kevin Slacking more than your weird uncle Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD) / Los Angeles, CA (home) Posts: 1,605	Back in the day, before watercooling was very mainstream, OverclockersHideout sold radiator-less kits. In fact, a radiator wasn''t considered "standard" at that time. The first kit that came out with a radiator was BECooling's original Aquastealth with rubber hose (my first jump into watercooling ). Anyhow back to my point, water temps will not just climb and climb and climb. They will increase and eventually plane off, depending on what your air temps are, etc. The way that OverclockersHideout did it was by having a large igloo cooler with a sumbersible pump in it. there would be an in line and an out line and go into the PC, hooking up to the H2O block. The thing to keep in is that at that time, CPUs were not putting out as much heat as they are now and that this solution is only mildy better than aircooling. To be effective, you'd have to bury a reservoir underground or just have a huge tank that you use. Something to consider would be a large reservoir (igloo cooler size) and a small radiator with a fan on 5V. I still don't feel that it is overall a good solution. -Kevin __________________ I used to throw hot coffee all over the ass of the horse there, then whip him while he was kickin' at me. Those f***in things are crazy.

10-22-2002, 02:28 AM	#3
gmat Thermophile Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,221	If you really hate noise, and want a total silent config, then you need either watercooling, or fanless solutions. - total watercooling: can be expensive, but very efficient. You can use a rad big enough (and design accordingly) to be passively cooled, i.e. it will need no fan. You will have to mount it outside the case. - fanless components: Zalman make CPU, GPU and NB fanless heatsinks, that work quite well. Their latest GPU double-heatsink (connected with a heatpipe) looks great. Since you are in USA you should check out TK Power PSU (available at silicon acoustics, for example), it's fanless... Do not forget to suspend / insulate your HDD. Finally a good site for silent PC zealots: http://www.silentpcreview.com/

10-22-2002, 03:09 AM	#4
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	hmm, i remember a site of a bloke who put a large pressure vat at +/- 6 feet under the ground. some pumpage and tubage, and he had coolant at +/- 10°C all year round. i can imagine it is not the most practical solution, but hey a 50l res isn't too practical either, and in the pressure vat case (can offcourse be any type of res) u got suppreme cooling. and in both cases , u ai'nt going nowhere with your pc. anyone might remember that article that has some link? it looked awesome.

10-22-2002, 03:19 AM	#5
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Bladerunner, look for fanless.co.uk (or.com). he's actualy in the uk!, I thought it'd be the Netherlands or somewhere, but no, dig deep enough and you'll find a cool spot...

10-22-2002, 03:45 AM	#6
gmat Thermophile Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,221	BladeRunner at zero fan zone: http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk

10-22-2002, 05:50 AM	#7
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Here's a cute little evaporative cooler, nice and quiete... http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...hreadid=105411

10-22-2002, 09:22 PM	#8
Axle Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Wind Gap, PA Posts: 112	Yeah.... I've been reading bladerunner's stealth project since it was up.... he's my idol He's one of the reasons I've been rather excited about going with a huge res...not possible I now know, which is good (thanks bigben2k). I read the passively cooled rad article at overclockers.com...seemed mighty compliciated, no? I don't think I've got the skills for that kind of project. Anyone know where I might find a huge rad that might work for this though? As for HDs, I'd ditching these two WDs in favor of a larger Segate IV, which I will mount in a 5 1/4. Ought to quiet things down a bit, right? Hew!! Those PSUs sure are expensive!! I've had very good luck with my 400watt/stealth (although I'd like to swtich it out for a pana), though. It's inaudible over everything else. Zalman does make some pretty great stuff, I've got one of their Flowers on another system; works quite well. But for a GF4? That thing's making me deaf, which is why I wanted to go water. I don't know of any quite GF4 coolers at all, ? Thanks for the great links, everyone, I havn't been to some of those sites in a long while (bookmarks are a mess!). And MAN! do I feel like an idiot. Can't tell a bong cooler from the underside of a bus. And no, I'm not thinking my room mate would apprechiate vapor comming off a white pole in the middle of the room all day either(unfortunely :[) I'm looking in on this passivly cooled radiator now, but does anyone have any thoughts?

10-23-2002, 05:31 PM	#12
gmat Thermophile Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,221	Ghetto but efficient, indeed. There's also that guy at ZZZ (http://zzz.com.ru/119.html) who built his case in a copper tube frame, which itself serves as a radiator... Nice and silent.

10-25-2002, 04:47 PM	#14
Axle Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Wind Gap, PA Posts: 112	First off, THANKS everyone!!! And sorry for not responding earlier, I've just been swamped :[ Pritorian, I've seen that a few times; it may just be a bit too ghetto for me After reading that link, mfpmax, I was thinking about copper tubeing (gmat), and still am a bit, but after reading your post, nicozeg, I relaized I've got the PERFECT thing. It's an old bucket I got abroad, been dragging it around for years; it looks like it holds 2.5-3 gallons, is PURE 1/8" copper, and I have two of them. These sound good? If y'all think it's ok, I'm going to start ordering guts. THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE!!! Really, thanks

10-27-2002, 06:36 PM	#15
Axle Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Wind Gap, PA Posts: 112	Hey, how about painting this thing? Big copper bucket-- do you think paint would decrease it's convection powers? Spray paint, I mean. If so, are there any brands that wouldn't?

10-27-2002, 11:25 PM	#16
peregrine Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 15	Instead of a rad, use a length of copper pipe curved into a spiral or helix, like done here. With a strong enough pump you could be able to use enough pipe to eliminate the need for fans. __________________ AthlonXP 1900+ @ 1.75Ghz; 1.85V - Alpha PAL 8045 w. 50cfm Sunon AOpen AK77-8x Max Leadtek Winfast GF3 ti-200

10-28-2002, 08:08 PM	#17
nicozeg Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 403	Painting will be ok, it don’t have any effect on convection, and should improve radiation a lot, where copper is weak. The best color for painting is silver; it can emit radiation but don’t absorb anything because it’s reflective capability. Second to it comes white; the worst is black because it absorbs anything received. That container you speak seems good; I guess it’s heavy being pure thick copper. It could be easy to improve its natural convection capability by soldering vertical copper fins to it.

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