"Radius" by BigBen2k - Page 17

bigben2k · 01-30-2003, 12:06 PM

The last time I told Utabintarbo to change the fin diameter, I said: "I'm increasing the diameter of the fin pattern to 25 mm". ( think I asked him to change it at least 4 times! Sorry Bob!)

Well, that was meant to cover the Barton core, plus 2mm.

Seeing that we now have some more accurate (!) measurements here, it looks like a 20mm diameter would do just fine.

(Go ahead, calculate it!)

Bob, are you there? (ducking)

bigben2k · 01-30-2003, 01:38 PM

I had a crazy idea this morning: what if I used this new flow seperator, the one that drops into the channels, and reverse the flow? I'd have a jet directed at that deadspot!

Problem is, the baseplate is actually hotter than the fins, so the center inlet is actually best: the jet works best against a hot surface, not along it's side. Oh well.

SysCrusher · 01-30-2003, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
I had a crazy idea this morning: what if I used this new flow seperator, the one that drops into the channels, and reverse the flow? I'd have a jet directed at that deadspot!

Problem is, the baseplate is actually hotter than the fins, so the center inlet is actually best: the jet works best against a hot surface, not along it's side. Oh well.

How about this. Cut your fins just right where they meet in the middle so you end up with a circle pin dead center. Raise this pin slightly higher than the fins so it's just poking up through your nozzle. An idea I was thinking about trying with mine. I don't know if it would work but you never know.

jaydee · 01-30-2003, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SysCrusher
How about this. Cut your fins just right where they meet in the middle so you end up with a circle pin dead center. Raise this pin slightly higher than the fins so it's just poking up through your nozzle. An idea I was thinking about trying with mine. I don't know if it would work but you never know.

Some mills even have a swieling head to where you could tapper the middle pin like /\. My mill can, but I havn't played with that option much. That might help keep the middle pin from creating more restrictiveness (is that a word?

).

bigben2k · 01-30-2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SysCrusher
How about this. Cut your fins just right where they meet in the middle so you end up with a circle pin dead center. Raise this pin slightly higher than the fins so it's just poking up through your nozzle. An idea I was thinking about trying with mine. I don't know if it would work but you never know.

Now I know you haven't been paying attention!

Cutting the center fins is not an option! If anything, I'd like to hear how I could connect the next set of 4 fins, without hindering flow!

utabintarbo · 02-01-2003, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
The last time I told Utabintarbo to change the fin diameter, I said: "I'm increasing the diameter of the fin pattern to 25 mm". ( think I asked him to change it at least 4 times! Sorry Bob!)

Well, that was meant to cover the Barton core, plus 2mm.

Seeing that we now have some more accurate (!) measurements here, it looks like a 20mm diameter would do just fine.

(Go ahead, calculate it!)

Bob, are you there? (ducking)

Yeah, you better duck!

I will see what I can do this weekend. Any other requests, O lord and master? Shall I modify the top as previously suggested?

Bob

bigben2k · 02-01-2003, 11:43 PM

Ah! My minion is back!

Let's go with the modification to the top's outlet, as I stated earlier.

Since that'll be the final design, and because I'll be doing the insert/nozzle seperately, I shall release you!

I should have SW2k3 up and running soon enough. Thank you very much; you've been an absolutely enormous help. How you put up with me for so long, I don't know...

utabintarbo · 02-03-2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
Ah! My minion is back!

Let's go with the modification to the top's outlet, as I stated earlier.

Since that'll be the final design, and because I'll be doing the insert/nozzle seperately, I shall release you!

I should have SW2k3 up and running soon enough. Thank you very much; you've been an absolutely enormous help. How you put up with me for so long, I don't know...

It boggles the mind, eh?

See what I can do....

Bob

bigben2k · 02-19-2003, 07:54 AM

Here's the latest render (Thanks to Utabintarbo), as close to final as it's going to be!

Now to solve the inlet problem...

hara · 02-19-2003, 08:11 AM

I'm sure you've already said this but i'm too lazy to check back but...what is the diameter of the + ?

Also, what is the base thickness?

Thanks

bigben2k · 02-19-2003, 01:01 PM

Fin pattern diameter has recently changed, it's now 20mm, to cover a Barton core.

BP thickness was originally 2mm, but I might reduce it down to one.

hara · 02-19-2003, 01:31 PM

20mm seemed a bit too small when designing this block. I'm really surprised as we both came to the same "radius".

Also that block currently has a 2mm base but we're currently opting for it to become 2.5mm as it will be used in a low flow environment.

bigben2k · 02-19-2003, 08:27 PM

Interesting...

I used Cathar's estimate, by which the fin pattern covers the die, then extends past it by 2mm. I then calculated the required diameter, based on the AMD spec die size for a Barton core.

As for the baseplate, the thermal simulation (i believe) used a 2mm bp (Right Bob?), so I may have justification to go to 1.5, if I can ever resolve my inlet problem...

hara · 02-24-2003, 11:20 AM

That simulation is based on quite a high flow though.

utabintarbo · 02-27-2003, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
Interesting...

I used Cathar's estimate, by which the fin pattern covers the die, then extends past it by 2mm. I then calculated the required diameter, based on the AMD spec die size for a Barton core.

As for the baseplate, the thermal simulation (i believe) used a 2mm bp (Right Bob?), so I may have justification to go to 1.5, if I can ever resolve my inlet problem...

I believe bp thickness has been consistently set @ 1.5mm. At least that is what the drawings show me. :shrug:

Bob

bigben2k · 02-27-2003, 11:43 AM

Easy enough, thanks Bob!

So I may yet reduce the BP thickness by 0.5 mm, but I'm going to run some calcs first.

Keep an eye out for another thread. (I'll link it back here).

bigben2k · 03-10-2003, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nicozeg
With an 1/4 nozzle, your effective intake area is going to be really small, about 12mm2, cause the fin area has to be substracted. I'd go for a bit wider nozzle, plus the tip removal.

I calculated the actual area of the opening, and it came out to 13.00 mm^2. Nice guess! (I might post my calculations, if there's an interest, PM me!)

Tonight, I'm trying to calculate the hydraulic equivalent. I'll be using 4 rectangles, 1 by 3.25 mm. I can't think of any other way to try to estimate the pressure drop.

My latest considerations: dropping the BP thickness to 1.0, and/or dropping the fin height to 4mm. I'm still thinking about it...

Now how'd I let this thread drop to page 2?

ref 19632

SysCrusher · 03-11-2003, 12:47 PM

Ben, I'd drop the fin height to 4mm too. Also, think of your inlet as if it was 4 separate nozzles. With your hose barb sitting almost ontop of the center crossed fins, it's basically 4 nozzles in one. With my calculations and experimenting, though I'm no pro at either, roughly a 4 - 5 mm opening for a round nozzle is best. That is what I found but that is for a round nozzle where your's is a triangle with a rounded bottom. I suck at geometry so calculating that area is beyond me. You could make your inlet square to meet a round hole for the barb. An idea that may be easy?

nicozeg · 03-11-2003, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
I calculated the actual area of the opening, and it came out to 13.00 mm^2. Nice guess! (I might post my calculations, if there's an interest, PM me!)

Cough cough, and if you substract the four fillets at the central corners it will end up closer to 12

The four rectangles seems a good aproximation

bigben2k · 03-11-2003, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SysCrusher
Ben, I'd drop the fin height to 4mm too.

I don't think anymore than 4 is needed, because I've seen the thermals but why do you think so?

Quote:

Also, think of your inlet as if it was 4 separate nozzles. With your hose barb sitting almost on top of the center crossed fins, it's basically 4 nozzles in one. With my calculations and experimenting, though I'm no pro at either, roughly a 4 - 5 mm opening for a round nozzle is best. That is what I found but that is for a round nozzle where your's is a triangle with a rounded bottom. I suck at geometry so calculating that area is beyond me. You could make your inlet square to meet a round hole for the barb. An idea that may be easy?

Well, what concerns me is to make sure that the jet isn't going to be sucked out to the side/outlet. As it stands, the opening (of a quarter of the area) is 3.25mm by 1 (or equivalent), and the outlet is 5mm by 1mm, twice. That means that my inlet is much smaller than the outlet, so the jet should work fine, even if I drop the height to 4mm.

But I have to revise the thermal before I make that decision.

The jet has to hit the baseplate, but I'm kinda hoping that it'll pickup some heat from the center fin too.

From the original flow analysis, only the bottom 1mm is moving at any significant speed: that bothers me, a bit.

As for the square inlet, it would only make the calculations simpler

Otherwise, I am indeed considering it as 4 nozzles.

If 4-5 mm round nozzle is best, what pump would that be for?

bigben2k · 03-11-2003, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nicozeg
Cough cough, and if you substract the four fillets at the central corners it will end up closer to 12

The four rectangles seems a good aproximation

No, I accounted for those (that's what took me so darn long to calculate!)

bigben2k · 03-11-2003, 04:58 PM

A small update.

The hydraulic equivalent to a 1 by 3.25 mm rectangular opening is: 1.53 mm (diameter). The closest imperial measurement is 1/16. There are, of course, 4 of these.

Now I can drill 4 * 1/16 holes in a PVC cap, and run a flow test, but off-hand, it's gonna be awfully small.

In the meantime, here's a render of the latest revision of the top (thanks again to Utabintarbo).

nicozeg · 03-11-2003, 05:26 PM

You're wright, just realized that I considered the fillet radius at 1mm instead of 0.5mm

Anyway theres a very fast way of calculating circular areas; just consider them squares and multiply by Pi/4 (0.785)

SysCrusher · 03-11-2003, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
I don't think anymore than 4 is needed, because I've seen the thermals but why do you think so?

Because of jet slightly loosing it's velocity after it exits the nozzle though it is a slight difference. If your nit-picking for every last performance gain then the smallest gain counts too. With a larger flow/pump, the further the distance between the base plate and nozzle can be without hurting performance greatly.

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k

Well, what concerns me is to make sure that the jet isn't going to be sucked out to the side/outlet. As it stands, the opening (of a quarter of the area) is 3.25mm by 1 (or equivalent), and the outlet is 5mm by 1mm, twice. That means that my inlet is much smaller than the outlet, so the jet should work fine, even if I drop the height to 4mm.

I think It'll work fine. More than 5mm with our type of pumps we use will just kill the effect we're looking for and that 5mm is right on the edge of loosing performance.

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k

The jet has to hit the baseplate, but I'm kinda hoping that it'll pickup some heat from the center fin too.

It will pick up any heat in the center fin and it should hit the base unless the pump is so weak it won't push it.

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k

From the original flow analysis, only the bottom 1mm is moving at any significant speed: that bothers me, a bit.

I'm lost there. Have no idea what you mean.

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k

As for the square inlet, it would only make the calculations simpler Otherwise, I am indeed considering it as 4 nozzles.

That's how lazy I can be.

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k

If 4-5 mm round nozzle is best, what pump would that be for?

I did this for a hydorL30 pump. About 300G/6Ft. head and one foot of hose If I remember correctly. Going with a smaller nozzle can actually decrease performance. It has to do with the velocity and size/shape of the impingement. The pump can only produce so much velocity/pressure with a given size nozzle. Once you reach the highest velocity you can with a nozzle, going smaller won't produce any more and will just effect the size of the impingement area. Of course the bigger the better the pump, the smaller you can go until you see negative returns providing the pump heat isn't a "big" concern. I can draw it on ms paint to better explain it.

bigben2k · 03-12-2003, 09:53 AM

My pump is fairly powerfull: Little Giant 2-MDQ-SC (see PQ curve below). Max flow around 525 gph, max head 14.6 feet.

I understand what you mean about the nozzles: I recently (tried to) run the calcs for LiquidRulez here.

What I meant about the flow being at 1mm is just that: if you look at the first graph I posted (from Roscal's analysis), it shows that out of all the channels, most of the flow is concentrated at the bottom 1mm: the rest is almost stagnant. I'm kinda hoping that the new inlet geometry will kinda help this too.

01-30-2003, 12:06 PM	#401
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	The last time I told Utabintarbo to change the fin diameter, I said: "I'm increasing the diameter of the fin pattern to 25 mm". ( think I asked him to change it at least 4 times! Sorry Bob!) Well, that was meant to cover the Barton core, plus 2mm. Seeing that we now have some more accurate (!) measurements here, it looks like a 20mm diameter would do just fine. (Go ahead, calculate it!) Bob, are you there? (ducking) __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-30-2003, 01:38 PM	#402
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I had a crazy idea this morning: what if I used this new flow seperator, the one that drops into the channels, and reverse the flow? I'd have a jet directed at that deadspot! Problem is, the baseplate is actually hotter than the fins, so the center inlet is actually best: the jet works best against a hot surface, not along it's side. Oh well. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-01-2003, 11:43 PM	#407
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Ah! My minion is back! Let's go with the modification to the top's outlet, as I stated earlier. Since that'll be the final design, and because I'll be doing the insert/nozzle seperately, I shall release you! I should have SW2k3 up and running soon enough. Thank you very much; you've been an absolutely enormous help. How you put up with me for so long, I don't know... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-19-2003, 01:01 PM	#411
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Fin pattern diameter has recently changed, it's now 20mm, to cover a Barton core. BP thickness was originally 2mm, but I might reduce it down to one. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-19-2003, 08:27 PM	#413
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Interesting... I used Cathar's estimate, by which the fin pattern covers the die, then extends past it by 2mm. I then calculated the required diameter, based on the AMD spec die size for a Barton core. As for the baseplate, the thermal simulation (i believe) used a 2mm bp (Right Bob?), so I may have justification to go to 1.5, if I can ever resolve my inlet problem... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-19-2003, 08:11 AM	#410
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	I'm sure you've already said this but i'm too lazy to check back but...what is the diameter of the + ? Also, what is the base thickness? Thanks

02-19-2003, 01:31 PM	#412
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	20mm seemed a bit too small when designing this block. I'm really surprised as we both came to the same "radius". Also that block currently has a 2mm base but we're currently opting for it to become 2.5mm as it will be used in a low flow environment.

02-24-2003, 11:20 AM	#414
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	That simulation is based on quite a high flow though. __________________ - Every great HD crash day is the day before back-up day. - My Past System - "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." - Milton, Paradise Lost. - FMZ

02-27-2003, 11:43 AM	#416
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Easy enough, thanks Bob! So I may yet reduce the BP thickness by 0.5 mm, but I'm going to run some calcs first. Keep an eye out for another thread. (I'll link it back here). __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-11-2003, 12:47 PM	#418
SysCrusher Cooling Savant Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 256	Ben, I'd drop the fin height to 4mm too. Also, think of your inlet as if it was 4 separate nozzles. With your hose barb sitting almost ontop of the center crossed fins, it's basically 4 nozzles in one. With my calculations and experimenting, though I'm no pro at either, roughly a 4 - 5 mm opening for a round nozzle is best. That is what I found but that is for a round nozzle where your's is a triangle with a rounded bottom. I suck at geometry so calculating that area is beyond me. You could make your inlet square to meet a round hole for the barb. An idea that may be easy?

03-11-2003, 05:26 PM	#423
nicozeg Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 403	You're wright, just realized that I considered the fillet radius at 1mm instead of 0.5mm Anyway theres a very fast way of calculating circular areas; just consider them squares and multiply by Pi/4 (0.785)

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